380 Question...

[gregintenn]

I once saw a great big fellow getting rowdy in a pool hall. The mere sight of a Colt 25 sent him packing for the door. I'm of the belief that a small gun on your person is much more valuable than a great big gun you decide to leave at home. That being said, I'm quite happy with my LCP or Smith J frame.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

If you get one of the tiny .380 pistols, DeSantis makes two external holsters very similar, the E-Z Rider and the Pistol Pack. I could be wrong, but believe that the only difference is that the E-Z Rider uses a tilt-adjustable paddle mount and costs a little more, and the Pistol Pack uses the common spring steel clips that mount on a belt (which hold great but are stiff enough to sometimes be a little work clipping them on or off a belt).

The EZ-Rider will hold most of the tiny .380 pistols. My NAA Guardian .380 came with one of those holsters which I wore out after many years and then I bought another one.

According to DeSantis, E-Z Rider fits Beretta Minx and Tomcat 32; Keltec P3At and P32; NAA Guardian .32 and .380; Ruger LCP; Seecamp; Walther TPH; Taurus 738.

Guardian 380cal — DeSantis Holster

Guardian 380cal — DeSantis Holster

Desantis also makes a slightly larger identical-looking product called the E-Z Rider II which will hold most of the tiny 9mm pistols including the Glock G26, which in my opinion is not especially tiny. Rather large compared to some of the others.

P9, P40 — DeSantis Holster

According to DeSantis, E-Z Rider II fits Beretta 9000S; Glock 26,27, 33, 39; All 3.5/3.6 inch barrel Kahrs; Keltec K11, PF9, P40; Ruger LC9; Sig P290; S&W CS9, CS40, CS45, M&P 3.5" barrel; Walther PK380, PPS.

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The original E-Z Rider for the tiny .380 pistols really is small enough that it really will pass as a cellphone holder or trucker's wallet. I carried it many years and nobody gave it a second glance. Even if they did, what the heck open carry is legal and at least they don't see any gun pieces sticking out so they have to use their imagination. Screw em!

Most of the bigger fanny pack type holsters are probably ultra-obvious that they are holsters, but I don't think the E-Z Rider is.

The E-Z Rider II is larger and most likely would shout "gun" to some folks. But they are convenient, easy enough to draw, and in TN it isn't illegal to open carry so if you get "made" concealed carrying "in plain sight" then it is probably no big deal.

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Some people can shoot the tiny pistols with stiff triggers. I have practiced a lot and can't accurately shoot the tiny stiff trigger pistols. Probably could do OK with a Sig P238 or some other tiny pistol with decent sights and a better trigger.

Can shoot a Kahr P9 good enough, which is "medium small". Lots smaller than a G26 anyway. I always wear cargo pants and routinely pocket carry the P9 in an Uncle Mikes pocket holster no problemo summer or winter. Anything bigger than a P9 would be a no-go for pocket carry. Could probably shoot the smaller PM9 good enough. Would need to try it to find out. Maybe the PM9 grip would be too small for my skill level.

Maybe even a PM9 would be too big for suit pants pockets. Been years since I last wore a suit.

My P9 would fit that E-Z Rider II. One of these days might get an E-Z Rider II to try out, because I liked the E-Z Rider with the Guardian .380 so good. But the E-Z Rider II is bigger and perhaps it would be less convenient and more obvious than just pocket-carrying the P9.

Edited August 19, 2011 by Lester Weevils

[daddyo]

I personally won't carry a .380. I like living too much.

[charlessummers]

When I began fishing about 11 years ago, I couldn't place in a tournament to save my life. I was constantly looking for, or buying the next big thing thinking that this is what I needed to become a better fisherman. As you may know... there are literally thousands of options for an angler out there. Before I knew it, I acquired a tremendous amount of stuff. Guess what? None of it helped me.

None helped until I decided one day as I was cleaning out my boat one weekend that I really didn't use but about 20% of what I had in there. So, it all went out to the barn except for those few things that I would always use. Once all of those distractions were out of my way, I spent more time becoming familiar and confident in what I had... and began catching more fish!

My point is... and I'm trying to remember this with shooting, that once I become familiar and confident with my little LCP, I won't feel that it is "underpowered". (I've never really felt that way anyway)

The .380 may be a small round, but I don't want to be hit with one.

[peejman]

I pocket carry a P3AT in Desantis Nemesis holster. As stated, accuracy is key. Hits to the thoracic cavity will stop anyone. Mine has proven to be minute-of-paper-plate accurate fired relatively quickly, one-handed, inside about 10 yds. That's good enough for me.

Is .380 the ideal defense caliber? Clearly no, but it sure hits harder than my knuckles. There's several stories of cops being killed by a .22 while wearing body armor, as well as perps who needed 10+ hits from a .45 to go down.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Yes it seems wasteful to keep buying new stuff when practice and getting good with what you have is the key.

Eventually if I see a good price on a .380 Beretta Cheetah would like to get one because they just seem like neat guns, and I've shot one before with decent accuracy first time out. Got no argument with .380 as a round.

Unless one can borrow or rent a gun model and see "positive potential" right away for accuracy, then one must bite the bullet and buy an example and invest some practice to find out if it can be adequately learned.

Like with geetars. The best guitarists I know prefer fine guitars just like anybody else but they do an outstanding job playing crap guitars. In the hands of an expert you would not necessarily know from hearing the music that the expert is playing a terrible guitar. But some folks will never reach an "acceptable" expertise even with constant practice and the finest gear. If the goal is to reach some minimum level of expertise, then the less talented benefit from fine gear better than the most talented. The experts cen exceed that minimum level of expertise with about any non-broken tool. Sometimes even using broken tools.

I've put in enough practice to be reasonably confident that I can't learn to accurately shoot a tiny gun with minimal sights and stiff trigger. Regardless whether it is .22 or .45. I have the same problem with snubbie revolvers, at least snubbies that don't have very good sights. Maybe a snubbie with excellent sights would be different. It ain't the fault of the tiny pistols. Some folks can do it fine.

Perhaps most people can learn to shoot good with tiny guns. Just wanted to mention that possible ergonomics factor. Only way to find out (unless one can rent/borrow the pistol and get instant good results) is to buy one, practice with it, and find out.

[dbla]

Thanks guys. Lots for me to think about. I'm thinking I'll definitely go with an LCP and a Desantis Tenacious. I looked at my the diamondback 380 last night at Guns and Leather. I love the look and feel of that piece, however the reviews are atrocious. So I think I'll skip that.

Thanks again!

[Jonnin]

Thanks guys. Lots for me to think about. I'm thinking I'll definitely go with an LCP and a Desantis Tenacious. I looked at my the diamondback 380 last night at Guns and Leather. I love the look and feel of that piece, however the reviews are atrocious. So I think I'll skip that. Thanks again!

All the DAO 380s are direct copies of kel tec, so its really just a choice between price and fit/finish/polish. Ruger has good facilities and did a great job copying this design, its one of the best of the copies. If you like a light trigger and light recoil gun, you really should try out the sig 238 before you spend $$, just to be sure. The moving barrel design soaks the recoil and the SA trigger can empty a mag blindingly fast, both combined mean many hits on a target in a second or 2. I wouldnt trade my sig for a sackfull of the kel tec clones, and I am sure others feel the reverse -- the only way to know which you like best is to try both!

[peejman]

All the DAO 380s are direct copies of kel tec, so its really just a choice between price and fit/finish/polish. Ruger has good facilities and did a great job copying this design, its one of the best of the copies. If you like a light trigger and light recoil gun, you really should try out the sig 238 before you spend $$, just to be sure. The moving barrel design soaks the recoil and the SA trigger can empty a mag blindingly fast, both combined mean many hits on a target in a second or 2. I wouldnt trade my sig for a sackfull of the kel tec clones, and I am sure others feel the reverse -- the only way to know which you like best is to try both!

Quite true... however, you can nearly buy a sack full of keltec clones for one P238. (That's only a modest dig... the SIG is a very nice gun).

[Jonnin]

Lol! I freely admit it was expensive, thats no lie. I think mine was around $600 out the door (its vague, it was part of a trade and exact value is fuzzy cause of that). Not for the shooter on a budget, but if you can afford enough 380 ammo to practice enough to carry one, its probably managable, IMHO. I prefer not to be a gun snob but thats just the truth with the price of this caliber. If on a budget for a small frame/caliber, the 9x18 stands alone for ammo price and gun quality, its what I had before the sig.

[JAB]

I have a P3AT that I carry, sometimes. A few months ago, I bought a S&W 642 (snubnosed revolver in .38+P.) I have had the P3AT longer and still shoot it better although I am SD accurate with the 642 at typical SD distances. I prefer revolvers to semiautos so just in general I prefer the platform of the 642 to the P3AT. I also don't wear tight pants. That said, there are still times, with certain pants/shorts, that the P3AT fits better and is the better option. Also, even though a snubbie revolver is kind of the archetypical BUG for an ankle holster, I find that (on the rare occasions I have a need to carry that way) the P3AT - due to being thin and flat - is a much more comfortable/easier to deploy ankle option than the 642. Further, I really don't understand why some folks say the trigger on a P3AT is stiff, difficult to pull, etc. Now, the trigger on the P11 I had was abysmal but the trigger on my P3AT seems pretty good for an SD gun, to me.

I have stated in other threads that crack-addled, male silverback gorrillas aren't a common threat in my area. Neither are psychotic rhinoceros. If they were, I might worry about the ability of the .380 to do its job. As it is, I still like to carry something 'bigger' when clothing and situation allow but I do not worry that my .380 would be ineffective against potential human assailants.

One thing that I do believe is very important when carrying a smaller caliber such as a .380 is ammo selection. To my mind, larger calibers would certainly be more 'forgiving' of poor ammo selection. Personally, I stick with (now 'older' tech) Federal Hydrashoks. The reason I choose to do so is that the results of every test I have found indicate that, while they do not expand a great deal, expansion appears to be pretty consistent across the board and they also consistently penetrate a gel equivalent of 12 to 13 inches.

[xRUSTYx]

i feel comfortable carrying .380's ... Had a couple P238's in my day which I sold, but plan to buy again in the near future.

With that said .... I'll be carrying my .380 and keeping my 9's with (13+ rounds) in the car. My .380 should give me enough time to get back to my car/house/boat where I have buckup

[china coaster]

A P3at or it's clone is a good default gun. The only practice you have to do is making sure it works. They are nasty little buggers so making sure you don't limp wrist the thing is very important. Mine has only stove piped once and I think I must have limp wristed it. In a good pocket holster it disappears . I carry it in my left rear which was unused anyway. that leaves space for another gun or two for your primary. A 357 snubby will fit nicely in a rifgt front pocket with a good holster, and no one questions it's ability.

[Jonnin]

Further, I really don't understand why some folks say the trigger on a P3AT is stiff, difficult to pull, etc. Now, the trigger on the P11 I had was abysmal but the trigger on my P3AT seems pretty good for an SD gun, to me.

Its all relative. The trigger on mine moves 2/3 of 1 CM from untouched to fired. Difficult to pull is more of an issue for us old folks, typing for 20 years has done my hands and arms no favors and I cannot fire most DAO guns that I have picked up, and of the ones that I can fire (380s, para LDA, etc), more than 20 shots or so will still make me cramp up and possibly miss a day of work afterwards. That p-40 I had holds the record, one magazine thru it and I was done for the day.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Its amazing how bad computer repetitive stress injuries can get. Playing piano is supposed to be bad for RSI, but survived near 30 years full-time piano playing without getting near as messed up as 15 years of full-time computer use.

I don't have any trouble squeezing DAO triggers yet, but on small guns have trouble squeezing DAO accurately. Even after lots of practice, can't hit the barn side of a broad with small DAO pistol!

[Guest biohazardmatthew]

So, I just went to the gun shop... I've been looking at the Ruger LCP for an EDC gun... But I keep reading stuff about the .380 being underpowered. I went and looked at the Kel Tec PF9, and the Ruger LC9. Ideally I would like to pocket carry, just works with the way I live my life day to day, there two guns seem a little too big... and frankly I don't wanna have to go buy pants a waist size larger to fit my piece (referring to my gun here, har har) in there. Maybe there's a better way to carry a larger frame? Or is the .380 a decent round? I mean, I can't imagine someone getting hit with a .380 ACP Hydrashock round and not being phased. Any feedback?

First of all caliber isn't the most important thing to consider. I would gladly take a .22 LR over having nothing at all. With a few minutes of research online you will discover that there has been a very HIGH percentage of the people killed by .22 .25 .38 so yes something smaller than 9mm can kill you.

The Ruger LCP is an excellent gun for daily carry. It is so small you will quickly forget you have it. Just get a nice Desantis Nemesis pocket holster for it and drop it in your front pocket and forget about it. If you want to free up your pocket then pop it in a Fobus paddle holster which holds it high on your belt line and tight against your body making it almost 100% invisible underneath a shirt.

I LOVE MY RUGER LCP!!!

[knoxrocks222]

diamondback and kahr both make pocket 9mms in the 450 to 500 price range

[ssallies]

I have looked at the lcp,bersa cc and the sig p238 for pocket carry. A friend had an lcp and a keltec. Both shot hard, wanting to jump out of the hand for a difficult follow up shot. After shooting several rounds the trigger pull made your finger sore. His wife could not even rack the slide. She can rack the slide (and shoot with less felt recoil) on my glock 20 sf 10mm with moderate power rounds. They sold the lcp and bought a bersa thunder 380. Too big for the pocket by far. The cc is a little smaller but not much.The lcp/keltec fits the pocket nicely with or without a pocket holster. I don't carry anything in my pocket with a round in the chamber, I only carry Israeli style in the pocket- there is simply too much at stake. I can rack the slide on the way up to fire and not lose half a second, but not with the lcp. I find that the p238 is the more accurate gun, much easier to rack the slide, has almost no recoil, is sao with a nice trigger, has external hammer and safety like the colt delta elite 10mm that i carried cocked and locked for bunches of years and fits the same holster the lcp did and disappears in the pocket.

While most people have no problem with sigs, I did have to "break in" the p238. I sent it back to sig, they put in a new barrel, magazine and recoil spring. After i polished the feedramp, cleaned and lubed it, it has been 100% ever since with over 1000 rounds thru it. My wife claims its her gun but I carry it in my pocket during the summer when I dont carry my 10mm. Academy sports has them in the safe behind the counter and I was out the door with the gun, two boxes of ammo, tax and tbi check for just a little over $500. They don't keep them under the glass, you have to ask. I always use fmj rounds for penetration. I don't feel undergunned as I can carry it unnoticed in many places I wouldn't normally carry my glock 10mm. The best gun to use is the one with you that you have practiced with and are intimately familiar with and is always by your side/pocket.

[MacGyver]

I don't carry anything in my pocket with a round in the chamber, I only carry Israeli style in the pocket- there is simply too much at stake. I can rack the slide on the way up to fire and not lose half a second, but not with the lcp.

Do you carry in a holster? What happens if you're grappling with an attacker?

I understand the hesitation many people have with carrying one in the chamber, but for me having it in my pocket isn't really that much different than having it on my belt, or inside my waistband. A good holster that fully covers the trigger guard is very important, but I can think of a whole lot of self defense scenarios where I won't have use of my other arm to rack the slide.

[ssallies]

Almost forgot, you can get hardcast 100g 1150 fps 380acp round from buffalo bore. They are great little penetrators. Compare that to some standard 38sp (which I also have) of 125g at 900fps or 9mm with 115g at 1150fps. Not a lot of difference. I know you can get plus p rounds for the others, but most people dont. I personally like the 135 g 10mm at 1700 fps with 865lbs of energy... yahoo!

[ssallies]

Yes in a holster in the pocket, then I have missed my opportunity to grab my weapon and so has my attacker, I must then rely on my years of martial arts training (2nd degree blackbelt)to remove my self from the attacking situation and escape. What attacker would want to grapple with me if he has a gun? Why would I pull a gun on someone who doesn't have one? Why would I be grappling with an attacker who has a gun unless Im taking his gun from him. Like I said, i can have my gun ready to fire as fast as i need to. Look up the training the Israelis get, it not a handicap. Carrying in the pocket is more of a handicap than a waist holster for sure, but beats not carrying at all. Ideally its about getting out of a situation without killing myself or someone else. I have carried a 1911 for years cocked and locked but thats a lot different from trying to fish a gun out of your pocket. It almost takes two hands just to get it out of most of my pockets.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Have been curious about Sig P238. Looks like a nice gadget. It doesn't have a grip safety does it?

Would not be afraid to pocket carry a P238 or other tiny SA cocked and locked, but would want some kind of pocket holster that protects the safety switch in addition to the trigger guard. Maybe that is silly if they also have trigger firing pin blocks. It would be a shame for the safety to get jiggled off in one's pocket though.

Edited August 23, 2011 by Lester Weevils
spelling

[MacGyver]

I pocket carry a J-frame everyday. I've at times in the past, and still from time-to-time pocket carry a LCP, a NAA mini revolver, a P238 and a MicroEagle. My reason for carrying my J-frame is that for me, the same criteria exist for pocket carry as they do if I'm carrying on my belt. That is:

1. I need to be able to get a full firing grip on my weapon in my pocket in the holster.

2. I must not have to readjust my firing grip upon drawing the weapon from my pocket. This is why I seldom carry the LCP anymore.

3. I need to feel comfortable with the whole system - pants, holster, weapon to feel comfortable carrying a round chambered. Because I'm not comfortable carrying in Condition Three.

4. I need to be able to present the weapon and put two shots into the thoracic triange within two seconds.

5. I need to be able to at least the weapon with my other hand. As you learn in defensive pistol classes, this is tricky, even on your belt. That said, I'm willing to accept some compromise here, but having the gun out of the fight because I can't access it with my other hand isn't an option.

When I mentioned grappling earlier, I recognize that may have a different connotation within the martial arts world. Historical annecdotes show that a large number of self defense shoots have taken place at contact distance. That is, within an arms length. If my attacker has a gun on me and I decide to draw, I'm likely going to be striking/grabbing that weapon to get the muzzle off of me. If someone(s) jump me and are beating me to death, I'm likely going to have at least one arm engaged in my defense or counterattacking.

Everyone has to be comfortable with their own condition of carry. I'm just not sure I see the difference between carrying in my pocket in a good holster and carrying on my belt. The muzzle is pointed in the same direction.

[ssallies]

I like mine, but I like most all guns. No grip safety on the p238. My opinion is no more valid than the next persons, it's just mine and what I am comfortable with today. It may differ tomorrow. I know there is a ton of experience out here in cyberspace and it is very cool to be able to share with and from people I know have a lot more knowledge and experience than me. (reread my last post and it looks very ... opinionated!) Have a nice day!

[Guest RobThatsMe]

Have been curious about Sig P238. Looks like a nice gadget. It doesn't have a grip safety does it?

Would not be afraid to pocket carry a P238 or other tiny SA cocked and locked, but would want some kind of pocket holster that protects the safety switch in addition to the trigger guard. Maybe that is silly if they also have trigger firing pin blocks. It would be a shame for the safety to get jiggled off in one's pocket though.

I really like my Sig P238. This is a pistol that should always, always, be carred in a pocket holster if you intend to pocket carry.

I have the Sig P238 leather pocket holster and it completely covers the safety. The safety itself is very firm. Even so, I would never carry this in the pocket without the holster. The weapon itself draws nicely from the holster without any issues. The holster protects from printing and can be used in either the front, or rear pocket, or even in a suit or jacket inner pocket. This is my summer carry when wearing light clothing, shorts etc.

Rob

Edited August 23, 2011 by RobThatsMe
add picture.