Should this conflict ever arise what would you do?

[Guest WingMan380]

I also think I have a slightly different take on protecting my family than some others. To me, protecting my family doesn't just mean ushering my wife, my mom, etc. to safety in an immediate incident. It also means being there to help care for my mom as she gets older. It means being there for my wife on a daily basis in the years to come and being around to help protect her and our home for as long as I can. No one can know how long they have but getting myself killed over a stranger for whom I honestly have no real feelings does not fit into that plan. I have a much greater responsibility to my loved ones (whether friends or family) than I do to the cashier at Walmart.

I think JAB has a very valid point here! Protecting your family is more than that 1 1/2 minute situation.

Second we can all sit here and be arm chair quarterbacks and say what we will and won't do but let's face it, ain't a dang one of us on her that can say 100% sure what the heck we will do.

Third, some of our fellow TGOers and HCPers scare the crap out of me with their post on this subject, especially from the younger crowd.

[Guest biohazardmatthew]

I never considered this. But any person carrying a HCP SHOULD be observent enough to see who the immediate threat would be. Id say 9 times of of 10 it would be clear who is who.

But that is certainly something to keep in mind. I can see the news eating that story alive.

There is a large number of us who would be able to think under pressure and know friend from foe... especially those of us with law enforcement training. However, I figure there is a LOT of the average joe out there that have no official training other than the HCP class and have never been in a stressful situation and are very likely to start shooting at everyone they see with a gun.

[Dolomite_supafly]

Plus you can't count on the good guy being dressed nicely or the bad guy being dressed badly. There have been a lot of cases of road rage in which the assailant wasn't your typical thug.

Dolomite

[Guest Sgt. Joe]

Plus you can't count on the good guy being dressed nicely or the bad guy being dressed badly. There have been a lot of cases of road rage in which the assailant wasn't your typical thug.

Dolomite

This is VERY true and not just with clothing....

After spending most of my adult life either in the Army, the Guard or having a security job as a second or sometimes first job and having to be clean cut and clean shaved, I now have long hair and a beard that gets trimmed when I feel like it.

To most folks I would look like the bad guy, yet to the BG's I look like a target because I need a cane to walk or have a pronounced limp when I dont use it......it is something that I think about not only when we have these discussions but every day that I leave the confines of my home.

So Jon, as you see you are certainly not alone in thinking about these things in advance.

Yet with all the thinking that I have done about these situations the only thing that I know for certain is that I simply dont know for certain just what I would do in a given situation.

I do know what I "think" that I would do and that is to do all I can to simply be a wittiness to a robbery if possible. But once the shots are fired all bets are off, and even then things are still in a gray area, things can even get into that gray area if BG starts acting all wigged out.

But what if the BG shoots the clerk and starts running for the door? You sure cant say that you were in fear of your life and shoot him in the back although we may would want to and it may would even be morally justified for some of us, that still would not make it legal nor the right thing for us to do.

And if all the BG is doing is pointing the gun at the clerk you are still likely going to have to have your lawyers convince a jury that they would have been in fear of their lives too if you take that shot and kill the BG. By then it isnt about whether or not YOU were in fear or not, it is about whether or not another group of 12 supposedly reasonable people would have been.

These are always good discussions simply because they help us to keep our situational awareness high so that we have a better chance to avoid these situations to begin with. We have all the time in the world to discuss and think about it now, if the time ever comes we are likely down to nano-seconds in which to make a choice and it better be the right one.

And of course some things make it all more of a no-brainer....an active shooter for instance while I have cover and no innocents in the line of fire make it pretty easy to think that I would take all the shots that I needed to stop the threat. Add some innocents and or take away the cover and it starts to get a bit sticky even then, in such a case we need to hope that we can move and still fire effectively while doing so. For myself simply getting around can be a challenge at times, so running jumping and rolling while trying to shoot effectively is going one real bear for me to deal with in a gun fight.

And OH YEA I think about it, I watch everything and everyone as best as I can, always....twice or three times.

I sure dont want to watch while some thug kills an innocent person no more than anyone does but I also dont want to get shot by another GG because I may look rough in their opinion nor do I want to deprive my family of me being around either by getting myself killed or by being sent away because everything was not quite black and white enough for those 12 other supposedly reasonable people should it come to that.

As someone else said some of the very adamant "I will" answers here tend to scare me a bit, but I also know that sitting at a keyboard and actually being in the situation are quite different, so really not so much so.

I hope and Pray that no one here ever has to find out what they would actually do and that IF they do have to take any action that they do the right thing. Not the right thing in their minds but in the mind of the DA and then Heaven Forbid if not in the mind of the DA at least in the minds of those 12 other people. Remember that it will always be someone else who says whether or not we did right or not.

When one thinks about it....we all here are for the most part of the same mindset. We carry to defend ourselves with no ill intent to others. Yet we still have way different answers to the same situation. And then if we do take any action our lives go into the hands of other people who may or may not even share the common mindset that we have here........Scary it is......that much I am also sure of.

[McAllyn]

I've said it before, and I stand by it: My cover garment is not a cape. If I can get my family (hypothetical, since I don't have one) out of harm's way and call the cops, that's exactly what I'll do.

The way the scenario you describe plays out in my mind, anyone who will pull a weapon in a crowded retail store is in a bad way, and that situation is going to get a ton worse. I'm not going to escalate it or even be involved in it, if possible.

Mac

[JAB]

Another thing that comes to mind is that I often carry either a S&W 642 (snubnosed .38+P revolver) or my Kel Tec P3AT. I feel fine with those weapons because I practice with them and believe I could use them effectively to defend myself or my loved ones at the most likely self defense distances (10 yards or less.) Because the reason I carry is only to defend myself and my loved ones, that works, for me. If I were that close to the gun wielding robber, I suppose I'd have to at least consider the possibility that he poses a threat to me and mine - but that doesn't necessarily mean that going for my gun (and turning an armed robbery into a shootout) would automatically be the right thing to do.

If I were further away (which, again, is how I interpret the scenario as originally posed by the OP) then I sure as heck am not taking a shot at (say) 25 yards in a crowded store with a pocket pistol as long as there is any other option available to me (such as getting me and mine to cover and calling 911.) Even with the largest pistols that I routinely carry in public (my Ruger P95 and my CZ82) with which I am capable of putting all shots COM on a B27 at 25 yards (well, on a good day, anyhow) I still wouldn't start shooting under those conditions. Further, I sure as heck am not moving closer to the threat in order to get a better shot unless one of my loved ones is directly in harm's way. Give me a carbine or a rifle with a good optic and a clear shot and I might try it - if I had to. I'd even feel pretty good about my chances with the open sights on my Super Blackhawk .44 Mag with it's seven inch barrel and all - but I'm not likely to be carrying a rifle or a big, hunting pistol around Walmart.

Edited August 23, 2011 by JAB

[Guest Glocks-R-Us]

I have came close to pulling the trigger on the job and the only reason I haven't is because of the people or area behind my target. You may hit the suspect and stop his actions but say another round strikes an innocent third party that one stray round will wash away the good one in the eyes of many.

Well put! It's great to see that other people think like I do while carrying. You always have to expect the unexpected and be cautious to any other 3rd parties or bistandards.

[Guest uzzi]

Wow - you guys are brave. If I can't articulate a real threat of death or "serious bodily injury" to myself or family, it is hard to justify in the scenario of walking in on a robbery. But the moment the gun is even pointed at me, that now becomes the threat of death or serious bodiy injury" and is a different situation.

However, intervening on a situation is VERY dangerous for you legally. You better REALLY have your facts correct and have read the scenario right or your good deed can get you in a lot of trouble. Imagine, there is a dead clerk and a dead perp and the cops show up and YOU are holding the gun. That won't look good.

You are legally responsible for every shot you fire.

[maddog909]

Nothing, your not the police. At best you should move yourself, loved ones and friends quitely away from the situation and call 911. If the guy starts shooting wildly at customers then you might want to take different actions but there are liabilities in doing that and you may end up in jail.

[Punisher84]

Nothing, your not the police. At best you should move yourself, loved ones and friends quitely away from the situation and call 911. If the guy starts shooting wildly at customers then you might want to take different actions but there are liabilities in doing that and you may end up in jail.

I could see a civil suit, but how would you end up in jail?

[Guest Jon]

I havn't read anything here thats scared me as some have. I think everyone has made very valid points.

Thinking about this situation again, I may or may not be the first one to shoot but my gun would at the least be unholstered. I wouldn't want to give the BG the upper hand by waiting for him to turn on me before I tried to draw.

I think everyone will agree that if you tried to draw your weapon and get off a shot before the BG then not only are you greatly decreasing your accuracy. While at the same time taking a risk of the BG firing even half a second before you.

I was a Ranger in the Army. I know I can draw, aim, fire, and hit target multiple times within 15 yards easily. But I also know I can get off twice the amount of rounds in tighter groups from much greater distances with just that extra second to aim.

But everytime I run this through my head it ends differently.

From what I have gathered from the thread it seems like everyone has 3 main determining factors

1. Risk of injury or death to bystanders
   
2. Location of BG in relation to you
   
3. Current mentality/actions of the BG
   

My main goal for this thread was to read through others thoughts and opinions and hope if I ever, or another HCP holder, got into a situation like this that the different thoughts would be in the back of their mind and could aid and help the person in making the right decision. In a situation like this one millisecond could be all that stands between the right and wrong choice. Is anyone in this thread wrong? No, I wouldn't say so. Some more Hi Speed, sure. Some a little reluctant, sure. But thats a good thing.

[Dolomite_supafly]

I could see a civil suit, but how would you end up in jail?

I would think one of the your stray bullets hitting an innocent could feasibly result in these:

39-13-201. Criminal homicide.

Criminal homicide is the unlawful killing of another person, which may be first degree murder, second degree murder, voluntary manslaughter, criminally negligent homicide or vehicular homicide.

39-13-215. Reckless homicide.

(a) Reckless homicide is a reckless killing of another.

( Reckless homicide is a Class D felony.

39-13-212. Criminally negligent homicide.

(a) Criminally negligent conduct that results in death constitutes criminally negligent homicide.

( Criminally negligent homicide is a Class E felony.

Now a decent DA would probably charge the bad guy with the killing but a stray bullet that kills another could also result in a charge.

Dolomite

[Punisher84]

I would think one of the your stray bullets hitting an innocent could feasibly result in these:

Now a decent DA would probably charge the bad guy with the killing but a stray bullet that kills another could also result in a charge.

Dolomite

Be a hell of a stretch. Could happen I guess, but I've never heard of it happening. They would have to prove your actions were intentionally reckless or negligent. But yea, with the right jury it could happen. Anything is possible nowadays.

[Guest msparks]

I only carry to prevent one murder. Mine. (I don't have a family). Anything beyond that is a crap shoot. Too many variables to say for sure what I'd do.

+1

The only thing would be if I'm between him and the door. Then it might change the situation. Otherwise I will back off, find a tactical spot and prepare to defend.

[Guest kcb37]

I say it depends.

If his back is to me, I will draw no thought about it, just reaction. When he turns and points his gun, he's shot.

If he can clearly see me, wait. Most of the time robbers don't shoot.

From a distance, I will draw I probably would not shoot. To many bad outcomes. Try to position myself to get a good shot probably. Still dependent on the situation. I will do no one any good to try to move forward when the perp can see you, then freak and shoot. Now you have to shoot a distance at a moving target. Who know's where your rounds are going.

As far as protecting my family, yeah there first. But even bymyself. I will do everything I can to protect anyone around me. Don't care if they think guns shouldn't even be made. Everyone has a right to live, if I die saving the life of someone I have never met, so be it. We will all die, just don't know how or when.

[Guest danny.larson]

I carry primarily to provide protection for my family; with that said, if my wife and kid are present for any such scenario I'm not going to aggravate the situation and put them in harms way by pulling mine and engaging the individual. If they aren't present, I probably still wouldn't get involved. I'm not getting shot over a cash register, nor do I feel like going through the ass-pain of shooting someone over a cash register. If the individual was actively shooting at people, well then yeah, I guess I would feel a moral obligation to smoke him, but otherwise it's for the police to take care of.

[Guest Sgt. Joe]

I havn't read anything here thats scared me as some have. I think everyone has made very valid points.

My main goal for this thread was to read through others thoughts and opinions and hope if I ever, or another HCP holder, got into a situation like this that the different thoughts would be in the back of their mind and could aid and help the person in making the right decision. In a situation like this one millisecond could be all that stands between the right and wrong choice. Is anyone in this thread wrong? No, I wouldn't say so. Some more Hi Speed, sure. Some a little reluctant, sure. But thats a good thing.

I agree with all of that and pretty much with all that everyone has said. Everyone is a bit different and therefore is going to have a bit different answer, sometimes different words are going to amount to the very same answer.

I dont think that anyone here got their carry permit so that they could become a Super Hero to the general public. Some may feel more of a moral obligation to strangers than others will but all of that is just fine as we are not clones of each other. As cruel as it may sound to some, we dont have any obligation to each other, we still have the freedom to pick our battles. While I would certainly welcome it, I dont expect anyone to step up and save my butt and I reserve my right to decide if I should try and save theirs.

Even those of us with families that say "if I am alone" have to remember that any mis-step in our actions could still very much effect our families.

I really do believe that these threads do indeed give us a little more of an edge as small as it may be because we get to read each other's thoughts. These threads no matter how many always make me think and it seems I learn something from all of them

ANYTHING that gives us a better chance of going home is a good thing IMO, we are, as has been said only going to have a fraction of a second to get it right.

That said I have even been seriously considering giving up the ponytail/beard look for the buzz cut/clean shaven one once again just for that teeny tiny little edge that it may give me of not being mistaken for the BG by another GG or the Police. Some may say that is unnessary and overkill, but then some may also say that carrying 17+1+17 was overkill just like plenty think that carrying at all is unnessary.

I figure that if I think that I look a bit rough in my old age that I must appear that way even more so to strangers. Teeny tiny indeed, but an edge none the less.

And besides all of that, someone at the store the other day asked my 12 year old daughter if her GRAND father was cool?

I am a Gran-dad too but Good Gracious:tinfoil:

I appreciate everyone who has contributed to this thread, your opinions and thoughts matter and are helpful to me.

[IggyBcool]

+1

Our handgun permit instructer (who is also an LEO) If there's no immediate threat to life then why risk a potentially deadly confrontation over money... that's not even yours?

Please explain how having a gun shoved in someones face demanding money is no immediate threat to life.

[Guest Chattanoogan]

If I had a clear shot, I would take him down. I believe the law says you can defend a 3rd party as long as you are privy to the situation. I personally couldnt live with myself if I went and hid to call 911, and a innocent person was killed, knowing I was possibly able to prevent it.

I surely wouldnt shoot him without regret, ive been told after a self defense shooting there will be a million what-if's going thru your mind, you will always second guess yourself. I dont take lightly to taking a life, but if it is so others may live, then so be it.

Edited September 9, 2011 by Chattanoogan

[Guest bkelm18]

Please explain how having a gun shoved in someones face demanding money is no immediate threat to life.

Your duty as an HCP holder is not to protect everyone who may encounter harm. As I said in an earlier post, I carry to prevent only one murder. Mine.