Curious.... public library?

[Fallguy]

Marswolf:

You are going to have to help me understand your opinion on recreational areas. It's not a grey area. It's clearly listed as an area that is off limits unless you are one of the exemptions listed. If you are in the exemptions list then it would only apply to you.

I'll let Mars speak for himself. But for some,including me, the carry in parks in general is a grey area, because the law 39-17-1311 does not specifically ban handguns. In fact what it says that is illegal to carry is a list of weapons in 39-17-1302(a) of which a handgun is not one of them.

Now the AG has issued two opinions (07-148 & 08-26) in which he says that carry is illegal. But that is just his opinion. It would be a judge or jury that would have to find you guilty of it.

[Marswolf]

That's it in a nutshell. Handguns are not on the list of prohibited weapons in a recreational area under 39-17-1302.

[Ricochet]

Now the AG has issued two opinions (07-148 & 08-26) in which he says that carry is illegal. But that is just his opinion. It would be a judge or jury that would have to find you guilty of it.

That is so dang frustrating because it is a constant pain in the rear to try to figure out what is and isn't legal and whose opinion is what and what opinion matters or if it even counts. Do they make is complicated for a reason? Ugh!

Personally I wish they would simply pass a law that all places that are off limits would be posted by the appropriate signs and any that aren't posted are free grounds for carry. See how simple that would be

[Guest db99wj]

That is so dang frustrating because it is a constant pain in the rear to try to figure out what is and isn't legal and whose opinion is what and what opinion matters or if it even counts. Do they make is complicated for a reason? Ugh!

Personally I wish they would simply pass a law that all places that are off limits would be posted by the appropriate signs and any that aren't posted are free grounds for carry. See how simple that would be

Hey we could do what the criminals do and not follow nor care about the laws that only restrict law abiding, tax paying citizens that have handgun permits.

[Fallguy]

In most other states the list of off limits places is in one statute and applies specifically to those with a carry permit. Pretty simple and straight forward.

At times I've thought that would be a good idea hear, but afraid legislators would want to start adding places to the list that aren't off limits now.

Also in many states a posted sign is more or less a request/suggestion. If you carry past the sign you have not actually broke any law, like you have in TN. Of course the place can still ask you to leave and if you don't you're trespassing just like TN.

[Marswolf]

In most other states the list of off limits places is in one statute and applies specifically to those with a carry permit. Pretty simple and straight forward.

At times I've thought that would be a good idea hear, but afraid legislators would want to start adding places to the list that aren't off limits now.

You ever read the Virginia statutes, Fallguy? I only live about five miles away, so I try to keep up. Their gun related stuff is spread all over the code, Big PITA. I assume someone wants it that way.

I also fear prodding our legislators to fine-tune TCA. I suspect the results could b much worse than they are.

[Fallguy]

I have read up on VA some. In VA you even have the situation where concealed carry is illegal, but open carry is legal in some places.

So that is one reason I didn't say all....lol

[Marswolf]

I have read up on VA some. In VA you even have the situation where concealed carry is illegal, but open carry is legal in some places.

Like restaurants serving liquor.

[Guest 270win]

You don't want the handgun statutes to be worse off like in Arkansas or Mississippi that clearly has a list of 'off limits' locations, but that list has TWENTY different locations. It is so stupid and pathetic to want people to remember all the different places they can't carry. A good example that is off limits in Arkansas and Mississippi is a place of worship. Some stupid bunch of legislators when both states decided to issue licenses in the 1990's (neither issued before then) that churches are 'not the right place for weapons to be'. Arkansas for a while was only good for keeping a handgun in your car, until the state took the parks and buildings where alcohol is served off the list (changed to restaurants) and changing 'school property' to 'school buildings' as off limits. At least when you are there you are legal going out to eat, at the park, and walking across a college campus....but still not church!

[Marswolf]

Yeah, unfortunately legislatures are allowed to do dumb things. Be afraid...be very afraid.

[Guest jcramin]

isnt a public liberary a Govt building???? You cant carry in Metro Water... Fire Hall... so why a Metro library? I think Govt buildings were exempted from the verbage requirment if already posted.

Thats what I thought too, BUT as I read I see that I guess only Federal Govt buildings are exempted from signs ?

Edited March 17, 2008 by jcramin

[GLOCKMEISTER]

its just a gray area glitch between the AG, and the actual TCA...

[Marswolf]

I don't see a gray area. Handguns are not listed. I think the AG is a dunce.

[Fallguy]

I don't see a gray area. Handguns are not listed. I think the AG is a dunce.

....and libraries are not recreational buildings.

....and at least State and Local government buildings MUST be posted (at least in some form) to be off-limits.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

All correct points and guys I agree... but im not going to be the one to test the water. I also agree the AG is a total idiot. Thats the only thing that throws a wrench into it, the freaking AG's opinion. I mean was he drinking when he wrote it or what???

In short we'll carry into the liberary, concealed of course, .... but we can articulate our point if anything happens... regular citizens may not be able to.

Edited March 17, 2008 by GLOCKMEISTER

[Fallguy]

I agree on any "questionable" area it is up to that individual whether they want to carry there or not, as long as they have the correct information. If they are simply told they can not carry in any Government Building (or anywhere else) to try and protect them from anything questionable, or some other inaccurate, all encompassing statement, then that is not fair to them.

Plus I still don't see how, at even the furtherest stretch of even the most anti-gun person's mind, they could think a library would fall under 39-17-1311

Also remember, the places under 39-17-1311 are actually supposed to be posted. The the legislative body or a committee appointed by them to regulate the property can exempt the property from being posted, but there should be some sort of record of that exemption in the minutes of a meeting by that body, I doubt most have actually done that or could produce it in court.

And for the record I have carried in Parks and Civic centers as well as City Hall, the courthouse, the police station and the library.

[Guest TNDixieGirl]

... but we can articulate our point if anything happens... regular citizens may not be able to.

You've said this twice now. What the hell is it supposed to mean? What makes you so extraordinary? And why wouldn't us poor dumb "regular citizens" (whatever that means) be able to articulate our point?

Edited March 17, 2008 by TNDixieGirl

[GLOCKMEISTER]

I agree on any "questionable" area it is up to that individual whether they want to carry there or not, as long as they have the correct information. If they are simply told they can not carry in any Government Building (or anywhere else) to try and protect them from anything questionable, or some other inaccurate, all encompassing statement, then that is not fair to them.

Plus I still don't see how, at even the furtherest stretch of even the most anti-gun person's mind, they could think a library would fall under 39-17-1311

Also remember, the places under 39-17-1311 are actually supposed to be posted. The the legislative body or a committee appointed by them to regulate the property can exempt the property from being posted, but there should be some sort of record of that exemption in the minutes of a meeting by that body, I doubt most have actually done that or could produce it in court.

And for the record I have carried in Parks and Civic centers as well as City Hall, the courthouse, the police station and the library.

Hey I agree with you 100%, but evidentally the AG and Dept of safety feels differently. Im waiting on another legal opinion from the state on it right now, then well see what they say "officially"... btw, Im going to make them put it into writing.

Edited March 17, 2008 by GLOCKMEISTER

[mousegunner]

Probably not. Interesting question.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

You've said this twice now. What the hell is it supposed to mean? What makes you so extraordinary? And why wouldn't us poor dumb "regular citizens" (whatever that means) be able to articulate our point?

ooops, Im sorry about that. I didnt mean to offend. And Im not extraordinary by any means, no better or worse then anyone here. I have actually received lots of insight in my brief visit to this board.

What I meant is this. An officer arriving on a scene is less likely to argue the point to someone whom is or has been a police officer, is an instructor for the permit course, has instructed and taught at the academy that the arriving officer probably graduated from, was there when the law was written, legislated, and finally made law. I can just about quote everything in 39-17.... even if I sometimes over think it.. and lots of others here on this board can quote it just as well, but this is no ordinary board... most officers cant quote the gun laws, neither can 98% of my students I have taught over the past 15 years. Most citizens know the do's and don'ts, but couldnt tell you exactly verbatim what the law says and where it can be found in the TCA. I never said nor implied regular citizens were poor or dumb, those are your words not mine.

You see its that officers job to know the law, if he doesnt and he steps out of bounds when someone more knowledgeable tells him he's wrong he can get into big trouble. Remember that run in with the Knoxville officer and the permit holder in the Knoxville Walmart?

I guess its an experience thing and knowing which buttons to push and being able to get away with it.... Again, I didnt mean any offense, if you were offended then you have my sincerest apology.

[Guest TNDixieGirl]

I'm not offended. I don't take offense that easily, and I'd just say so if I was.

I just wanted to know why you thought "ordinary citizens" and "average citizens" wouldn't be able to articulate a point as well as you. Sounded pretty condescending, especially after reading it twice in the same thread. No apologies are necessary as far as I'm concerned. I asked, you answered. Done deal.

[Fallguy]

Hey I agree with you 100%, but evidentally the AG and Dept of safety feels differently. Im waiting on another legal opinion from the state on it right now, then well see what they say "officially"... btw, Im going to make them put it into writing.

LOL....you're right about the AG and DOS. As I'm sure you've seen the AG issued a second opinion about park carry to affirm his first one. So I admit I am taking a chance and would not advise anyone else to do so based on my actions. Of course, again as I'm sure you know, regardless of the AG's opinion an officer would have to charge you first instead of telling you to just leave and then if he did and it went to court a judge or jury would still have to convict you. But that risk is for each to decide on their own. Hopefully the bill will pass and make this moot anyway...

ooops, Im sorry about that. I didnt mean to offend. And Im not extraordinary by any means, no better or worse then anyone here. I have actually received lots of insight in my brief visit to this board.

What I meant is this. An officer arriving on a scene is less likely to argue the point to someone whom is or has been a police officer, is an instructor for the permit course, has instructed and taught at the academy that the arriving officer probably graduated from, was there when the law was written, legislated, and finally made law. I can just about quote everything in 39-17.... even if I sometimes over think it.. and lots of others here on this board can quote it just as well, but this is no ordinary board... most officers cant quote the gun laws, neither can 98% of my students I have taught over the past 15 years. Most citizens know the do's and don'ts, but couldnt tell you exactly verbatim what the law says and where it can be found in the TCA. I never said nor implied regular citizens were poor or dumb, those are your words not mine.

You see its that officers job to know the law, if he doesnt and he steps out of bounds when someone more knowledgeable tells him he's wrong he can get into big trouble. Remember that run in with the Knoxville officer and the permit holder in the Knoxville Walmart?

I guess its an experience thing and knowing which buttons to push and being able to get away with it.... Again, I didnt mean any offense, if you were offended then you have my sincerest apology.

I really can't argue with anything you said there. Although I admit, even though I wasn't offended either....it did just sort of come off "not quite right" but even with emoticons typed words can do that real easily...

[The Rabbi]

ooops, Im sorry about that. I didnt mean to offend. And Im not extraordinary by any means, no better or worse then anyone here. I have actually received lots of insight in my brief visit to this board.

What I meant is this. An officer arriving on a scene is less likely to argue the point to someone whom is or has been a police officer, is an instructor for the permit course, has instructed and taught at the academy that the arriving officer probably graduated from, was there when the law was written, legislated, and finally made law. I can just about quote everything in 39-17.... even if I sometimes over think it.. and lots of others here on this board can quote it just as well, but this is no ordinary board... most officers cant quote the gun laws, neither can 98% of my students I have taught over the past 15 years. Most citizens know the do's and don'ts, but couldnt tell you exactly verbatim what the law says and where it can be found in the TCA. I never said nor implied regular citizens were poor or dumb, those are your words not mine.

You see its that officers job to know the law, if he doesnt and he steps out of bounds when someone more knowledgeable tells him he's wrong he can get into big trouble. Remember that run in with the Knoxville officer and the permit holder in the Knoxville Walmart?

I guess its an experience thing and knowing which buttons to push and being able to get away with it.... Again, I didnt mean any offense, if you were offended then you have my sincerest apology.

You've just cited the one example that contradicts your thesis. The guy in KNoxville was an instructor for permit carry. But that didnt prevent Officer Friendly from disarming him and cuffing him.

Back on topic: this cries out for a test case. Someone would need to arrange with his favorite Metro officer to be charged etc and then take the mess to court. Would also need to create a legal defense fund etc.

ANd I know no one wants to volunteer for this, me included.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

You've just cited the one example that contradicts your thesis. The guy in KNoxville was an instructor for permit carry. But that didnt prevent Officer Friendly from disarming him and cuffing him.

Back on topic: this cries out for a test case. Someone would need to arrange with his favorite Metro officer to be charged etc and then take the mess to court. Would also need to create a legal defense fund etc.

ANd I know no one wants to volunteer for this, me included.

Actually he wasnt an instructor, he was a young man, he simply worked behind the counter at Coal Creek Armory. At least that my understanding. And you may get that one guy that doenst care who you are or what you know... thats the reason I suggest that it would be wiser to not carry unless you really know what you are doing and how to deal with law enforcement. Its all about how you carry yourself, if you look/act like you know what your doing... then most people think you do. If this young man had "carried" himself properly, then that officer might have thought he was a cop... or at least handled it in a different way.

In any event it ended with the officer getting into trouble.... although it was a slap on the hand.