Curious.... public library?

[Ricochet]

I went to pick my daughter up at the public library and I had to go in to get her. I didn't know if it is illegal to carry inside or not, so I basically just stood outside and texted her on the cell to come on. Can anyone tell me if it is or not, there were no signs saying one way or the other.

Edited March 11, 2008 by Guns&Dobes

[Fallguy]

Perfectlly legal unless they have a properly posted sign under T.C.A. 39-17-1359

[Ricochet]

Thanks Fallguy, thats what I thought but wasn't sure.

[The Rabbi]

Yeah, while I was waiting once I read the Nashville Public Library's rules and one of them is no concealed weapons. But it isnt posted anywhere. And with the vagrants who hang around the Main library I sure am not going to leave my gun in the car. Heck, I'll take extra ammo.

What caliber for smelly bum?

[Guest TNHillbilly]

My "yl" has been involved for 20+ years in the Mid Tn library system, and throughout much of the state for 4 years. She said it has never come up that she knows of.

So, D.A.D.T. , if it's not posted.

by the way, IF for some strange reason, someone from the Guvmnt investigates what books you check out at the library, the staff legally cannot notify you that you are being checked up on. There will be a sign posted that tells you this.

[Marswolf]

I'll just chime in to reinforce that carry is legal in the library unless it is properly posted.

I was chairman of the local library board until recently.

One point though, one of our library branches is on school grounds. Can't carry legally there.

[gunsablazin]

Yeah, while I was waiting once I read the Nashville Public Library's rules and one of them is no concealed weapons. But it isnt posted anywhere. And with the vagrants who hang around the Main library I sure am not going to leave my gun in the car. Heck, I'll take extra ammo.

What caliber for smelly bum?

Almost any decent SD round will do the job, just be sure to stay upwind if possible.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

isnt a public liberary a Govt building???? You cant carry in Metro Water... Fire Hall... so why a Metro library? I think Govt buildings were exempted from the verbage requirment if already posted.

Edited March 12, 2008 by GLOCKMEISTER

[Im Neero]

What caliber for smelly bum?

5.7x28, and I recommend carrying at least 400 rounds of preloaded magazines on your person, they probably have bum friends around. It's a lot of ammo to carry, but if you cut down your daily load out to 3 knives, pepper spray, flashlight (with crenelated strike bezel), and baton, you should have room for it. If anyone hassles you about it, just show them your handgun carry badge.

[Guest stovepipe]

I'm thinking along the same lines as GLOCKMEISTER. I'd double check before

committing.

Stove

[GLOCKMEISTER]

Im going to ck into it in the morning, but I think Im right. I have always had the attitude better safe then sorry. I know you used to not be able to, and I dont think 1359 changed that for the Govt buildings postings. I believe If I remember correctly, most were posted prior to 2000. If so they may not have to be posted like 1359 says ... meaning the same verbage and size requirments may not be required. I think the law says... "substantial compliance"... So whats that really mean? I think you may have to really look for a sign, and it may be on another door.

I tell my students when it involves Govt buildings to be very careful, when in doubt just dont carry.

Edited March 12, 2008 by GLOCKMEISTER

[Smith]

Almost any decent SD round will do the job, just be sure to stay upwind if possible.

I don't know about that. Maybe that FN 5.7 round would be good to get through all the layers of "clothes" most of them wear, plus they are usually liqueured up. I know, cause I run them out of our parking lot (a favorite drinking spot) and they usually head to the Library.

[Marswolf]

isnt a public liberary a Govt building???? You cant carry in Metro Water... Fire Hall... so why a Metro library? I think Govt buildings were exempted from the verbage requirment if already posted.

I wish people would get it out of their mind that they can't carry in government buildings.

There is nothing in Tennessee Code to prevent you from carrying in state, county, and municipal buildings unless they are a school or courtroom while court is in session - unless those buildings are posted. You can even carry in an un-posted courtroom as long as court is not in session.

As far as being grandfathered in for improper posting, the TCS says, "Any posted notice being used by a local, state or federal governmental entity on July 1, 2000, that is in substantial compliance with the provisions of subsection (a) of this section may continue to be used by the governmental entity." How you are supposed to know when the signs were put up or whether they are in substantial compliance is I guess a gift of psychic ability. The AG has opined that an international type sign of a gun in a circle with a slash over it is not in substantial compliance. It's a stupidly written law. There is also a question about, "public parks, playgrounds, civic centers and other public recreational buildings and grounds" needing posting. The AG says we can't pack there but he seems to be incorrect in that opinion - in my opinion. No I won't pay your legal bills to test it. .

While there is some question about post offices, in general, you can not carry in federal buildings.

But libraries, county courthouses, city hall, whatever are legal to pack in unless they have been posted that you can not carry.

As always, I strongly suggest that you take the time to read the code yourself at http://michie.lexisnexis.com/tennessee/lpext.dll?f=templates&fn=main-h.htm&cp= and understand it. Most of what you need to know is under 39-17-13xx

[strickj]

I thought post offices changed there no gun rulling to allow carrying

[mdmoseley]

Here is the way I see this (just my opinion) and interpret it from law. Tenn law says:

"On the grounds of any public park, playground, civic center or other building facility, area or property owned, used or operated by any municipal, county or state government, or instrumentality thereof, for recreational purposes."

A library to me would not fall under recreational purposes so unless it is posted per the statue allowing businesses or government buildings the option of banning firearms then it's not off limits.

[The Rabbi]

I thought post offices changed there no gun rulling to allow carrying

I think not. The PO is covered under Federal statute which prohibits carry, afaik.

[Fallguy]

I wish people would get it out of their mind that they can't carry in government buildings.

There is nothing in Tennessee Code to prevent you from carrying in state, county, and municipal buildings unless they are a school or courtroom while court is in session - unless those buildings are posted. You can even carry in an un-posted courtroom as long as court is not in session.

As far as being grandfathered in for improper posting, the TCS says, "Any posted notice being used by a local, state or federal governmental entity on July 1, 2000, that is in substantial compliance with the provisions of subsection (a) of this section may continue to be used by the governmental entity." How you are supposed to know when the signs were put up or whether they are in substantial compliance is I guess a gift of psychic ability. The AG has opined that an international type sign of a gun in a circle with a slash over it is not in substantial compliance. It's a stupidly written law. There is also a question about, "public parks, playgrounds, civic centers and other public recreational buildings and grounds" needing posting. The AG says we can't pack there but he seems to be incorrect in that opinion - in my opinion. No I won't pay your legal bills to test it. .

While there is some question about post offices, in general, you can not carry in federal buildings.

But libraries, county courthouses, city hall, whatever are legal to pack in unless they have been posted that you can not carry.

As always, I strongly suggest that you take the time to read the code yourself at http://michie.lexisnexis.com/tennessee/lpext.dll?f=templates&fn=main-h.htm&cp= and understand it. Most of what you need to know is under 39-17-13xx

You said it Mars!! I wish I could meet the instructor, person or whoever started the "Can't carry in Gov. Buildings" idea and correct them and ask them to please quite spreading that.

As you said, the "exemption" in 39-17-1359 for Gov Buildings was that if they already had a sign posted substantially similar to 39-17-1359, they didn't have to post a new sign. But either way for it to be off limits it has to have a sign posted.

The only places that are off limits per TN law are...

1.) Places that serve alcohol for onsite consumption. 39-17-1305

2.) Any room where a judicial proceeding is taking place. 39-17-1306

(Not the whole courthouse and not even the courtroom if judicial proceeding is not taking place.)

3.) On school property. 39-17-1309

Exceptions in 39-17-1309©(1) and 39-17-1310

4.) Public Parks, Playgrounds, Civic Centers and other recreational buildings and grounds. 39-17-1311

Exceptions in 39-17-1311((1)

5.) Any place with a properly posted sign under 39-17-1359

There are other places off limits per Federal Law, but the above 5 are the only place by TN law. Any of the lawyers on the board correct me if I'm wrong.

AG Opinion on international no symbol w/ gun. 07-43 Question 2

AG Opinion on Parks 07-148 Question 3

Edited March 12, 2008 by Fallguy

[GLOCKMEISTER]

I wish people would get it out of their mind that they can't carry in government buildings.

There is nothing in Tennessee Code to prevent you from carrying in state, county, and municipal buildings unless they are a school or courtroom while court is in session - unless those buildings are posted. You can even carry in an un-posted courtroom as long as court is not in session.

As far as being grandfathered in for improper posting, the TCS says, "Any posted notice being used by a local, state or federal governmental entity on July 1, 2000, that is in substantial compliance with the provisions of subsection (a) of this section may continue to be used by the governmental entity." How you are supposed to know when the signs were put up or whether they are in substantial compliance is I guess a gift of psychic ability. The AG has opined that an international type sign of a gun in a circle with a slash over it is not in substantial compliance. It's a stupidly written law. There is also a question about, "public parks, playgrounds, civic centers and other public recreational buildings and grounds" needing posting. The AG says we can't pack there but he seems to be incorrect in that opinion - in my opinion. No I won't pay your legal bills to test it. .

While there is some question about post offices, in general, you can not carry in federal buildings.

But libraries, county courthouses, city hall, whatever are legal to pack in unless they have been posted that you can not carry.

As always, I strongly suggest that you take the time to read the code yourself at http://michie.lexisnexis.com/tennessee/lpext.dll?f=templates&fn=main-h.htm&cp= and understand it. Most of what you need to know is under 39-17-13xx

I have read the law thanks for the link.... Btw I was there in 93 consulting Harold Stockburger and other legislative members on gunowners behalf when we drew up the original legislation. Boy we have come light years since then huh? Lots of stuff in that first one I didnt agree with, it was more of a cluster to be honest, but we knew we had to start somewhere.

On the library/govt building... I agree with you, its just the "substantial compliance" thing... I think its a loophole for the Govt. If they never had the right number of signs on all the doors it could be a problem. It needs to be clarified. I called and asked the most knowledgable person I know out at the State. She agreed with me that it was either a grey area or it was a simple no. I also emailed my old friend John Harris, he hasnt gotten back to me as of yet. My contact at the state is asking for a state legal opinion on it right now. The big thing is its better for citizens to not test it then be wrong. It may wind up being another AG opinion thing, for what good that does.

Btw... I also agree with you in 39-17-1311 says you can carry in parks, playgrounds, civic centers... But the AG doesnt agree. Is the books in the library a recreation??? If so does the AG opinion apply? All too gray for me, IMHO....

It took me about 4-5 years of me bugging the state to get clarification in writing about guns in parks while going to the boat ramp... another used to be gray area. We solved that problem.

My point was there may be a gray area we are overlooking. Me personally, I'll carry in the Library, but I feel I can articulate my position if need be if approached. Can the ordinary citizen, thats the question?

Hey, if its concealed... and the law is unclear, its never going to be an issue. Right?

Edited March 12, 2008 by GLOCKMEISTER

[Fallguy]

GLOCKMEISTER I agree with you in that the "substantial compliance" is a gray area.

But wouldn't you agree that for a library or any Govt. building to be off-limits that there must be some type of sign posted? That if there is no sign at all it is not off limits?

[GLOCKMEISTER]

Well yea, if I dont see a sign, a proper sign for a matter of fact, Im carrying in. Keep it concealed and if there is an issue I'll deal with it then.

But my point is back in the day... 12-14 years ago, some Librarys were posted. Maybe its a jurisdictional thing.

Example: Goodlettsville has a metro Library, but its in the city of Goodlettsville which was incorperated before Nashville, thus they have say so over what takes place in Goodlettsville. Im almost 95% sure that Library was posted at one time. Does that mean they all were.. I dont know.

I'll bet my butt Hendersonville's probably are right now, might be worth a road trip.

But my interpretation of 1359/1311 is if they were and now they still are, even if they arent correct and not an all doors then technically you cant carry in. But you have no way of knowing....

Kinda like the old law before 1359... you go to Lowes or Home Depot, they had small signs for a brief period of time and the automatic doors would hide them when they opened, thus you couldnt see them. Thats one reason we drafted 1359.

But in short, I'll carry everywhere I can.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

hey the real problem lies with the AG's opinion and is the Library a recreational facility's building.

[Fallguy]

Well yea, if I dont see a sign, a proper sign for a matter of fact, Im carrying in. Keep it concealed and if there is an issue I'll deal with it then.

There ya go....

As far as 12-14 years ago....who cares...new laws since then.

Old law on 1359 was a place could simply announce their no weapon policy, but now they must post.

No sign, no proper sign....ok unless in my above list or prohibited by federal law.

[Fallguy]

hey the real problem lies with the AG's opinion and is the Library a recreational facility's building.

LOL...could be for some, but IMO I would say no in comparison to the other listed places on the statute.

[Marswolf]

Folks, as I said, I was Sullivan County Library Board chairman. You can pack unless it is posted or it is built on school property.

I'm not going to get into the whole post office carry thing. I think we have been over it before. I do not recommend that you carry there, but the posters the put up never list exception d(3) that makes it a gray area.

Found it, we discussed this in http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1224.

[mdmoseley]

Marswolf:

You are going to have to help me understand your opinion on recreational areas. It's not a grey area. It's clearly listed as an area that is off limits unless you are one of the exemptions listed. If you are in the exemptions list then it would only apply to you.