Barrels 101 Questions

[Guest scarabatwork]

Okay, so the thought of having a varmint version of an AR-15 is just too great to resist. But, I want to do it right and I don't know about the .223 round or long distance shooting to make the right decisions.

Here are the things I'd like to know. At what range is the .223 round effective? Is there a better round to use in the AR15 than the .223 for distance shooting? What twist should the barrel be for distance shooting? And from what I understand, no chrome lined barrel for accuracy, right?

Is there anything I should know about bolt carrier groups and receivers?

I think that's about it.

Thanks in advance!

[Guest HexHead]

I'm thinking heavier round than 55gr and a 1:7 twist barrel. Obviously a 20" or longer heavy barrel.

[Guest jaypee]

Could you could tell us about the weights and styles of bullets you want to shoot in your black varmint gun? Also, can you tell us at what ranges you want to shoot varmints at? That would help us answer your questions.

JayPee

[tn hp]

It depends on bullet weight. When I shot the AR as a match rifle, I used a Kreiger 1/7.75 twist. This allowed me to shoot the 69, 77 and 80gr. bullets. the 80gr. Sierra gave me great performance at 600 yards.

It also depends on what range you expect to use this set up for and what size targets that you will be shooting. Most .223 barrels with a 1/7, 1/8 or 1/9 twist rate will shoot heavier bullets better. For varmint weight bullets, 52 and 55gr., the faster twist rates work better.

Regarding upper and lower units for the AR, most of all of the major brands are great, Bushmaster, DPMS, Olympic, Armalite, etc. are fine. I would recommend buying the same make of upper and lower. I have experience with Colt, Stag and Bushmaster. For a varmint set up, any of the major brands are fine. My match rifle was a Bushmaster.

Remember that a "heavy" target barrel will give you great accuracy and will, in the long run, be the way to go for a varmint rifle. A flat top with the built in Weaver type rail is a must. For optics, buy the best you can afford and this goes for the barrel as well. Triggers are a key component and there are several good ones out there Jewell is among the best.

Good luck and good shooting.

[Guest scarabatwork]

Well, I don't really know. I would just shoot target with it. I would like to shoot at at least 800 yards (if I could find a range for it). You probably know better what I should shoot at that range.

[The Rabbi]

It just depends.

A stock AR15 with good optics will be effective at least to 300 yards. The only change I would make to the gun is the trigger.

For more gee-whiz you might consider an upper in .204Ruger, which I hear is the ne plus ultra of varmint calibers.

[Guest gcrookston]

I've gotten good results with the right ammo / gun combination out to 500 yrds. Generally the tighter the twist, the heavier the bullet, the more effective you will be.

i.e. A 1:7 twist with a 77gr. bullet will produce better results at distance than a 1:12 twist with a 48gr bullet.

I have currently (3) .223 rifles and have owned a dozen others. I can state from experience one 1:7 rifle will produce superior results with 77 grain bullets while another identical rifle will keyhole the same bullet and print exceptionally well with 55gr. ammo.

So Basically what happens is; you have to match your specific gun to the proper ammo through trial and error, but if you are going for distance you will want to start with a tighter twist and a heavier bullet.

I've had good results out of my rifles up to 500 yrds. Beyond that, it's all luck.

[Urse]

At 800 yards the .223 might have enough energy to puncture paper. It is definately the extreme outer limits of it's range. If you are wanting to reach out and touch anything past 600 yards you are talking .308 or larger caliber. With that said I would not rely on the .223 having sufficient stopping power past 300 yards(or closer for that matter) and if it did, I would consider it a lucky shot IMHO.

[Rightwinger]

What Rabbi said!

.204 Ruger is the varmint round. Very flat tracjectory round shooting 32 to 40 grain V-max rounds out to 600 yards.

When I was thinking the same question I did my research and came up with the White Oaks Armament upper and bought one of those. Check em out here.

http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/

John Hollinger, the owner is a national marksman champion and knows his stuff! Plus if you want to stick with .223 he has quality stainless heavy barrel uppers for those as well. Additional plus is he will do trigger jobs for you as well.

[DaveTN]

Is there a better round to use in the AR15 than the .223 for distance shooting?

Yes, the .308.

It outperforms the .223 in all aspects regardless of what you are shooting or how far away it is. DPMS makes it in standard barrels or heavy barrels.

[Rightwinger]

A bit of clarification. The OP said another round in the AR 15 platform. He may have meant AR altogether and can so state, but if they really meant AR15 only then the .308 option is out the door(those being AR10s or LAR10s, etc). You have to buy an entirely different system for .308 and nothing is interchangable. For AR 15s you can shoot .223, .204, 6.8, 6.5 Grendel, 458 Socom and a plethora of other rounds that for the most part allow you to just buy the new upper and slap it on and perhaps a different magazine.

You CAN hunt coyote, Pdog, ground hog with a .308, but why would you want to. .223 or .204 are perfect for real varmint hunting.

Edited March 10, 2008 by Rightwinger

[Guest scarabatwork]

The .308 is a great round. I've shot .308 for a long time and I've always enjoyed it. I also like the 7mm Mag, but there's not ar variant that I know of that fires it. Another round that I would really like to shoot is the .338 Lapua, but I'm almost positive that its way out of my price range for this project. Can you tell me what the difference is between the LAR10 and the AR10?

[Guest 70below]

LAR10 is just Rock River Arms version of the Armalite AR10. I believe the "AR10" designation is copyrighted by Armalite.

[Guest scarabatwork]

LAR10 is just Rock River Arms version of the Armalite AR10. I believe the "AR10" designation is copyrighted by Armalite.

That's simple enough. I'm going to look around and see what I can find. I've heard great things about the .338 Ultra as well as the Lapua and I may look into it. The .458 Socom looks interesting. I'm going to look into the specs on the round and see it performs.

[Rightwinger]

The 458 is a great variant for the AR platform but its not a varmint round. Its a great deer hunting round though, comprable to the 45/70 Govt or .444 Marlin.

All you need to know about the 458 is here. The developer of the round posts often and will answer any questions you might have about the round and rifle. Most have already been asked so look around.

http://458socomforums.com/

[Guest gcrookston]

Well, if calibre be damned, then I'm for the Cobb .338 Lapua, a sub-moa gun(I understand this has recently been purchased by ? and bought by ? who bought ? and then purchased Dodge).... I cancelled my order after the 2nd or 3rd buyout

[Guest scarabatwork]

All I know is that I really want to be able to shoot pretty reliably at extreme ranges. I've never owned a good long distance rifle and having one in an AR variant is just something I'd really like to show off at the range.

[tn hp]

The U.S. Army AMU and the USMC rifle team shoot the AR/M-16 service rifle with extremely good results at 1000yds. 80gr. bullets and a 1/7 twist in a premium barrel will provide the results so long as you do your part.

If you want a long range rifle that performs exceptionally, then I would suggest a Mod. 700 or a Mod. 70 with a trued action, pillar bedded in a McMillan stock with a premium barrel in 6.5 x 284. This caliber gives magnum perfomance without the recoil and shoots very flat. Mine had a 30" Krieger barrel and the first time I shot it at Camp Perry, I qualified as a Master in the iron sight and scope sight matches. I won the 1000yd. TN championship with it in 97' and it routinely cleaned the 600 yd. line when we shot scope sighted matches at that distance. One problem, barrel life. Things may be better now but, 1,500 to 1,800 rounds is all you can expect before having to change barrels.

If your going to shoot F-Class at 1000yds. then some of those guys are getting super results and scores with the 6mmBR and even 243 with VLD bullets and superb gunsmithing. The 6mm International is also popular. The .308, at 1000yds., depending on the bullet tends to go subsonic. You want a bullet/cartridge combination that will allow you to shoot through or in all wind conditions. So, as the guy says in the Indiana Jones movie, "Choose wisely!"

[Guest 70below]

If I were buying and/or assembling a long range match gun on an AR platform, I would either buy or mimic the AR10(T) by Armalite. I've had the opportunity to shoot one before the barrel was even fully broken in and it shot one of the nicest groups I've ever shot. I really like the LAR10 varmit model, but apparently Rock River is having all kinds of problems getting it out on the market.

[Urse]

The U.S. Army AMU and the USMC rifle team shoot the AR/M-16 service rifle with extremely good results at 1000yds. 80gr. bullets and a 1/7 twist in a premium barrel will provide the results so long as you do your part.

True...However the average joe with a rack grade AR will not be able to get those same results. Those guys get paid to shoot and practice shooting. Welcome to TGO from the sounds of it your experience and input will be greatly appreciated.

[tn hp]

True...However the average joe with a rack grade AR will not be able to get those same results. Those guys get paid to shoot and practice shooting. Welcome to TGO from the sounds of it your experience and input will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks Urse. I didn't consider scarabratwork's question and follow up comments "average". I guess it depends on how serious he is about building a top performing varmint rifle on the AR platform. Hopefully, he won't be as annal as I can sometimes become in the quest for sub minute bliss. I've kind of gotten over that as I've gotten older and I still can't shoot off hand worth a darn.

With the AR, there are just hundreds of choice combinations. But, for the most part, I have seen rifle with the right barrel twist rate and proper hand loads out shoot their owners. A fellow competitor put together his match rifle AR, a few years back for just under $1000 and without, what I consider to be high dollar parts, built a rifle that could hold its on across the course and wack prairie dogs out past 500 yards. Past that, its hard to find the dang things in the scope and see them through the mirage!

[Guest scarabatwork]

Okay, after doing quite a bit of research on the internet, I've pretty much decided that the round I prefer is the .338 Lapua, from a cost of reloading / ammo / entry point of view to a ballistics one. Here is the problem. While I can step into the .458 with Rock River as a base, I can't seem to find any information on .338 Lapua uppers / lowers / completes. Does anyone have any idea where I can find this?

[The Rabbi]

Okay, after doing quite a bit of research on the internet, I've pretty much decided that the round I prefer is the .338 Lapua, from a cost of reloading / ammo / entry point of view to a ballistics one. Here is the problem. While I can step into the .458 with Rock River as a base, I can't seem to find any information on .338 Lapua uppers / lowers / completes. Does anyone have any idea where I can find this?

roflmao.

[Guest scarabatwork]

Uh oh... I've stuck my foot in my mouth in some way, haven't I? What did I miss?

[The Rabbi]

To my knowledge (limited I admit) .338 Lapua is strictly a bolt gun. Thus not available in an AR platform.