Man flashes gun while asking for money...thoughts?

[Fallguy]

I disagree, but before we start impressing everyone by swapping 39 dash whatever’s…

What are you going to charge me with? Aggravated Assault?

Are we talking about someone trying to take your wallet after showing a gun or you walking out of Wal-Mart and seeing someone trying to unlock your car?

If it's the wallet, I say draw. If it is the unlocking the care, then Yes, "I" think you are guilty of Aggravated Assault if you point a gun at them. However others may not....maybe even those others that would actually be making the charge if there was one.

[Fallguy]

So how does this weigh in then

38-2-102. Resistance by party about to be injured.

Resistance sufficient to prevent the offense may be made by the party about to be injured to prevent an:

(1) Offense against the party's person; or

(2) Illegal attempt by force to take or injure property in the party's lawful possession.

39-11-614 " Unless a person is justified in using deadly force as otherwise provided by law"

it does not specificaly exclude the threat of deadly force it states

"A person in lawful possession of real or personal property is justified in threatening or using force against another, when and to the degree it is reasonably believed the force is immediately necessary to prevent or terminate the other's trespass on the land or unlawful interference with the property."

You can use force to prevent a property crime but the law (won't cite the TCA so it doesn't look like I'm trying to impress anyone) specifically says you can only used deadly force if it falls under self-defense. The self-defense law says you cant threaten or use deadly force unless there is a reasonable belief that there is an imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury. And I guess I am just dumb in that I can't see how someone breaking into your car when you or no one else is in it is a causing a an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury to you.

I'm not saying I like it...remember I'm the guy that wishes the law was like TX where you could use deadly force for property crimes.

[Guest pfries]

I'm not sure, but I think "force" and "deadly force" are defined as two distinctly different things in TN law. There is another section that makes a statement something like, "...is authorized to use force, but not deadly force..."

At the moment, I don't have time to look it up, but I'll find it later.

The only definition of force I could find was this:

(12) "Force" means compulsion by the use of physical power or violence and shall be broadly construed to accomplish the purposes of this title;

Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-11-106

I could not find anything specific on deadly force.

[Fallguy]

The only definition of force I could find was this:

(12) "Force" means compulsion by the use of physical power or violence and shall be broadly construed to accomplish the purposes of this title;

Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-11-106

I could not find anything specific on deadly force.

I'm not sure there is a definition of deadly force per se. But there is sections ((1) and ((2) of the self-defense law. (1) talks about force and then (2) talks about force "intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury".

If pointing a gun at someone isn't threatening force intended to cause death or serious bodily injury, then I am wrong...

[QuietDan]

If someone is breaking into my car by swinging a crowbar over his shoulder, I could certainly imagine him using that crowbar on me, it being a deadly weapon and all. Or a screwdriver, or a big rock.

If I shout at the car-breaker, and he drops the crowbar or whatever weapon, and runs off, well then, off he goes. I will not shoot him in the back as he runs.

However, if he turns toward me, crowbar in hand, and lunges at me, well then, in fear of my life, I will shoot him. Repeatedly, until he drops the crowbar or whatever, or collapses, or otherwise terminates the threat to me.

(Or so I think. Under the circumstances I might wet myself, or hyperventilate, or shout at him in an extremely aggressive manner, or shoot him, or all of the above. You never really know for sure until the moment comes.)

[Guest biohazardmatthew]

I didn't mean I wouldn't draw, just that I didn't think we could do the "hands up!" thing. If the perp turns to flee before I can get a shot off I'd have to not shoot of course. It's the giving the police-style commands that I thought we couldn't do.

I am not saying you should impersonate a cop or try citizens arrest. I am saying give clear commands to your attacker so that he is aware that you are prepared to use deadly force if he doesn't stop what he is doing. If he places his hands in the air but doesn't run away then your best move would be to slowly back away while keeping your aim focused on him. "Don't move or I will shoot!" Once you have backed your way out of the situation he will most likely get the heck out of Dodge because he knows the police will be arriving soon.

Doing everything and anything possible to end the threat without using deadly force will reflect positively on you in the eyes of the judge, DA, jury, and general public.

In the event you are forced to use deadly force, any witnesses will be able to say "He warned the guy to put his hands up and not move."

[Guest biohazardmatthew]

"I was able to pull my .38 out really quick," he said. "The guy started yelling, Please don't shoot me! The gun's not even real. And I said, Well, mine is." Police identified Bennett and Harris' assailant as 17-year-old Darius Maurice White of St. Petersburg. He had been carrying a pellet gun, and told police he had a baby daughter and needed money.

This is a perfect example of why I wouldn't shoot someone right away for flashing their weapon at me unless they reached for it.

Full Story: Armed worker at Anytime Pizza foils robbery in St. Petersburg - St. Petersburg Times

[DaveTN]

Are we talking about someone trying to take your wallet after showing a gun or you walking out of Wal-Mart and seeing someone trying to unlock your car?

If it's the wallet, I say draw. If it is the unlocking the care, then Yes, "I" think you are guilty of Aggravated Assault if you point a gun at them. However others may not....maybe even those others that would actually be making the charge if there was one.

If you believe that you can’t point a gun at someone without being justified in the use of deadly force, then you must believe that either the cops are exempt from those laws or they are breaking the law. Which is it?

As a Police Officer if I saw someone breaking into a car, I would take him at gun point. I would order him to the ground and I would hold him at gun point until a second Officer arrived to cuff him.

If I was making a felony vehicle stop the occupants are removed from the vehicle at gunpoint.

Had those people ran I was not justified in killing them. I did that because they were committing a crime and I had no idea if they were armed or what they were going to do; therefore I was prepared to use deadly force if the situation escalated to that point.

Could a Police Officer arrest me for pulling a gun on someone committing an auto burglary? Sure. Would it happen? Only here.

[Guest 808-South]

This is a perfect example of why I wouldn't shoot someone right away for flashing their weapon at me unless they reached for it.

Full Story: Armed worker at Anytime Pizza foils robbery in St. Petersburg - St. Petersburg Times

Thier intentions was bad to begin with. And I would never know if thier gun is real or not.

[Fallguy]

If you believe that you can’t point a gun at someone without being justified in the use of deadly force, then you must believe that either the cops are exempt from those laws or they are breaking the law. Which is it?

As a Police Officer if I saw someone breaking into a car, I would take him at gun point. I would order him to the ground and I would hold him at gun point until a second Officer arrived to cuff him.

If I was making a felony vehicle stop the occupants are removed from the vehicle at gunpoint.

Had those people ran I was not justified in killing them. I did that because they were committing a crime and I had no idea if they were armed or what they were going to do; therefore I was prepared to use deadly force if the situation escalated to that point.

Could a Police Officer arrest me for pulling a gun on someone committing an auto burglary? Sure. Would it happen? Only here.

I think you are the one that has said over and over it is different for LEOs and citizens with a HCP.

39-(look it up yourself) says LEOs can may use or threaten the force necessary to accomplish an arrest. It then goes on to establish criteria for actually using deadly force. So in my lay, non-LEO, non-Attorney, non-informed, non-reference to case law opinion it seems LEOs can threaten deadly force to make an arrest without being able to use it unless other criteria are met. But it doesn't seem the self-defense law does the same for non-LEOs.

But all are free to interpret things on their own and I would never recommend any believe anything I say let alone follow it as some type of advice.

[Guest biohazardmatthew]

I think you are the one that has said over and over it is different for LEOs and citizens with a HCP.

39-(look it up yourself) says LEOs can may use or threaten the force necessary to accomplish an arrest. It then goes on to establish criteria for actually using deadly force. So in my lay, non-LEO, non-Attorney, non-informed, non-reference to case law opinion it seems LEOs can threaten deadly force to make an arrest without being able to use it unless other criteria are met. But it doesn't seem the self-defense law does the same for non-LEOs.

But all are free to interpret things on their own and I would never recommend any believe anything I say let alone follow it as some type of advice.

I agree with Fallguy about this. I don't think it would be in your best interest to pull your gun on someone breaking into a car. Unless, however, when you stumble upon the crime in progress if the perp advances toward you or pulls his own weapon then do what is neccessary to save your life.

[Worriedman]

Dead perp doesn't preclude lawsuit -- surviving family sue too, sometimes successfully.

- OS

I thought in TN, if you are not convicted of a crime in a self defense shooting, then the civil suit was a non starter?

[DaveTN]

I thought in TN, if you are not convicted of a crime in a self defense shooting, then the civil suit was a non starter?

That’s only if your shooting has been ruled justified. There is no ruling if your case is not prosecuted. If someone sues you and it is then ruled you were justified; you can seek a judgment for attorney fees and costs; good luck with collecting.

[JeffL]

I would have shot his ass, and in my opinion I would have been justified in doing so.

[JAB]

I think you would be legally justified to draw.

That being said. Is the cash in your wallet really worth possibly escalating the situation to deadly levels? I dont have my carry permit (yet) but even if I WAS carrying in that situation, theres no way in hell i would bet my life against some scumbag's in an OK corral-esque quickdraw competition. At that range, unless you come out shooting, I would imagine that there would be a very good chance both parties would end up getting shot. Additionally, you dont know if this guy is alone...I would imagine in most situations like this, there is a getaway driver involved.

Though most likely legal, Im not sure it would be prudent to draw in that situation. To me its always a mental risk/reward assessment. Call me a wuss, but id try to get a good mental picture of his face, throw him my money, and alert the police as soon as I could access a phone (assuming he took that too). Walmarts parking lots are chock-full of cameras. Chances are, they'd get him pretty quickly.

Am I Wrong?

The problem comes in when you start thinking, "Do I really believe that some low-life who is willing to threaten deadly force in order to steal MY property - property to which he has no right - will really just let me go after I surrender such property? After all, I am standing next to my car. If I give him my money, is he also going to want my car? Is he going to try and force me to accompany him in my now stolen vehicle, figuring there is no need to leave witnesses behind?"

If he has threatened me with deadly force in order to take my property then that threat - not the money in my wallet - would be the main issue to consider. Such a threat would make me believe that I would likely be better off taking my chances with outdrawing him when I might actually succeed (especially in a case where his gun is still in his waistband) rather than just handing my wallet over then waiting to see if he is going to try and kill me, anyway.

I would take an armed threat to my life seriously. Further, I would assume that the person making the threat was serious. If I thought the threat was anything less than a threat of death/serious bodily injury then I'd tell the person to kiss my a** and drive away. If I did think the threat was serious (and the assailant having flashed a weapon would be the one and only criteria I would need to consider it a serious threat), I'd figure at that point the assailant has already shown a willingness to kill me over a few bucks. With an assailant who has no more regard for my life than that, my thought is that I have little to lose and should respond as best as I could to a serious threat to my life. In other words, I am going to assume the worst about an armed robber and err on the side of 'he's going to shoot me regardless'. Either way, if there were any chance of turning the tables, I wouldn't just turn over my wallet in the hopes that a scumbag wouldn't shoot me, anyway. By making the threat the assailant - and not my choice to try and defend myself - has already made it a case of my life against his. That doesn't mean I wouldn't try and use turning over the wallet as a distraction.

For me, it isn't about being a wuss or a badass as I am about as far from being the latter as anyone I know. It is about assuming that someone who is threatening to kill me is a serious threat and defending myself from the threat.

Edited August 15, 2011 by JAB

[Guest 270win]

There are some mean criminals out there who love to flash a 'piece' and demand money, a car, purse, credit cards, or you take him to the ATM. Have in your mind what you'd do in a robbery situation.

[Guest biohazardmatthew]

Another option is to "accidently" drop your wallet on the ground as you hand it to him then when he bends down to grab it you now have the jump on him. Kick his teeth in and see how he likes having the tables turned.

[JAB]

I have read on other sites where guys were talking about carrying their money, drivers license, carry permit and maybe one credit card in a small, true 'billfold' or money clip in their front pocket and carrying a 'throwaway' in the more traditional, back pocket carry. Apparently, they start off with a cheap, nylon wallet and might put three or four $1 bills in it along with one of those novelty 'driver's licenses' (one that has a picture of Elvis and gives your address as Graceland, for instance) and a few of those 'fake' credit cards that card companies send out when trying to get a person to accept a credit card (not the kind that may have your real name on it but the ones that just say 'John Q Public') or a couple of spent gift cards to promote the illusion it is your real wallet if the assailant simply glances at it as you hand it over. If the assailant takes it and runs, no great loss and that might be the best outcome. If handing it over distracts the assailant long enough to draw your firearm, that could give you a chance to turn the tables and, again, even if the assailant takes the throwaway and runs at

that

point, it is no great loss.

Along the lines of what I posted, before, my one problem with that scenario is that I would have to assume that someone who threatens my life in order to steal my property is planning to shoot me, anyway. Still, a decoy wallet might not be a bad tool to have in the box and I must admit I like the idea of Mr. Scumbag getting some distance away and realizing that he's been had.

[Fdjordan]

This thread really strikes close to home. I was at that walmart, walking through the parking lot with my wife, at that time ( oddly enough we have a rule that she doesn't visit that walmart alone no matter the time of day as this isn't the first report of such activity.)

I noticed the security guard as we walked in, he seemed more preoccupied with smoking his cigarette and talking up female patrons that monitoring the property.

I agree with most of the above posts, if he showed the weapon I'm not going to wait to see if he intends to use it.

[RobertNashville]

I have read on other sites where guys were talking about carrying their money, drivers license, carry permit and maybe one credit card in a small, true 'billfold' or money clip in their front pocket and carrying a 'throwaway' in the more traditional, back pocket carry. Apparently, they start off with a cheap, nylon wallet and might put three or four $1 bills in it along with one of those novelty 'driver's licenses' (one that has a picture of Elvis and gives your address as Graceland, for instance) and a few of those 'fake' credit cards that card companies send out when trying to get a person to accept a credit card (not the kind that may have your real name on it but the ones that just say 'John Q Public') or a couple of spent gift cards to promote the illusion it is your real wallet if the assailant simply glances at it as you hand it over. If the assailant takes it and runs, no great loss and that might be the best outcome. If handing it over distracts the assailant long enough to draw your firearm, that could give you a chance to turn the tables and, again, even if the assailant takes the throwaway and runs at

that

point, it is no great loss.

I've been aware of this "trick" for many years...I'm not sure it even needs to be all that elaborate to work...a simple money clip with a $20 bill over a few $1bills...you get approached with a demand for your wallet and you pitch the decoy money clip toward them (but hopefully, far enough away that hey have to take their attention off of you to retrieve it...at the same time, you beat feet in the direction opposite the money clip/bad guy. If they are getting (or think they are getting what they want) they probably aren't going to care that you are leaving the area.

Of course, you have to be prepared it if doesn't work but if it doesn't, you aren't really in an worse position than you started out in!

[JAB]

I've been aware of this "trick" for many years...I'm not sure it even needs to be all that elaborate to work...a simple money clip with a $20 bill over a few $1bills...you get approached with a demand for your wallet and you pitch the decoy money clip toward them (but hopefully, far enough away that hey have to take their attention off of you to retrieve it...at the same time, you beat feet in the direction opposite the money clip/bad guy. If they are getting (or think they are getting what they want) they probably aren't going to care that you are leaving the area.

Of course, you have to be prepared it if doesn't work but if it doesn't, you aren't really in an worse position than you started out in!

Not bad except for the $20 on top. Twenty bucks is 'real money', to me and I ain't giving the SOB a $20 if I can help it. I don't carry around a lot of cash so it isn't unusual for me not to even have a $20 in my real wallet!

[Curiousgb]

I am no lawyer but if you came up to me and asked for money and I said "no" then you flashed a gun, I would be more than justified in defending myself. I think the bg in this story established his "intent" to do you harm, if you did not comply with his request. On the other hand it is just scary to really think these things through. I think the victim in this situation got lucky that it all worked out.

[East_TN_Patriot]

That is called armed robbery. Plain and simple.

39-13-401. Robbery.

(a) Robbery is the intentional or knowing theft of property from the person of another by violence or putting the person in fear.

( Robbery is a Class C felony.

39-13-402. Aggravated robbery.

(a) Aggravated robbery is robbery as defined in § 39-13-401:

(1) Accomplished with a deadly weapon or by display of any article used or fashioned to lead the victim to reasonably believe it to be a deadly weapon; or

(2) Where the victim suffers serious bodily injury.

( Aggravated robbery is a Class B felony.

If someone approaches you "asking" for money and brandishes a weapon to "encourage" you to be generous, that is a felony. I will take all necessary actions to protect myself and my family. If that includes presenting my firearm, so be it.

Edited August 20, 2011 by East_TN_Patriot

[Guest biohazardmatthew]

Not bad except for the $20 on top. Twenty bucks is 'real money', to me and I ain't giving the SOB a $20 if I can help it. I don't carry around a lot of cash so it isn't unusual for me not to even have a $20 in my real wallet!

Sounds like me and you are in the same boat. Can't afford a $20 in my wallet more less to give away to a robber. LOL

[RobertNashville]

Not bad except for the $20 on top. Twenty bucks is 'real money', to me and I ain't giving the SOB a $20 if I can help it. I don't carry around a lot of cash so it isn't unusual for me not to even have a $20 in my real wallet!

So put a $5 or a $10 around some paper cut to the proper size...get some fake money that looks close to the real thing. The entire trick may not work at all no mater what denomination of bill is used...then again, if it's dark out I doubt the bad guy is going to know!

The point is to have a plan that might save you a lot more grief in the end and as I said, if it doesn't work you probably are no worse off then you were to start with and at the very least, the distraction may at least be enough to bring your own weapon into the equation.