For those of you with Daughters....

[Caster]

Marriage is obviously a spoiled word for some people (understandably) but it is natural. There are many higher species of animal that mate for life.

As for what I would do with a child, I don't know. I will never know. Took measures to ensure that I will never know. So, I don't know...but I will say this much, I never got caught for (pretty much) anything, and I was, pardon my language, a sorry little bastard. Very rarely did I get in serious trouble and I usually backpedalled my way out of the worst of it. I wish now I had gotten caught for everything, every time.

[strickj]

Marriage is obviously a spoiled word for some people (understandably)

Naa... not a spoiled word for me at all. I have no problems with it.

but it is natural. There are many higher species of animal that mate for life.

You just made my point for me. You do not have to have marriage to only have one mate for life.

Lots of people do that very thing. Does it make someone evil and worthless if they have only had one mate their whole lives but failed to repeat a few words in a church?

[Caster]

You just made my point for me. You do not have to have marriage to only have one mate for life.

Lots of people do that very thing. Does it make someone evil and worthless if they have only had one mate their whole lives but failed to repeat a few words in a church?

If I gave you the impression of the necessity of "church" I not only need to correct that error, but apologize too. I have little to no use for "organized religion" It's a sham for the most part. A crutch for some. My vows were not taken in a church and there were only 3 people present; Me, my love and the lady in Gatlinburg I paid $75 to sign the legal document. Marriage or not, I would have and will spend my life faithful to her and her alone, but I figure if I can tax break for her, hey, sign the paper:)

[Guest mn32768]

I'm grateful and proud of my 15-yo daughter... my wife and I have been telling her "you get as much freedom as you can handle". She knows that if she's not being stupid, we'll treat her like a young woman with the corresponding privileges. If she chooses to act stupid, the hammer comes down and she'll be treated like a kid. Grounded, no cell phone (worse than any beating!), no computer, 8pm bed time etc. Carrot works better than a stick. We've also been telling her that having sex at 15 is not smart, but having unprotected sex is about as dumb as it gets. I think she gets the point. ...

[Guest Sgt. Joe]

My oldest daughter is 32 and has given me 3 wonderful Gran-kids, 2 girls and a boy. Since her mother and I divorced when she was 14 I was not around much for her HS years but mom evidently did a fine job as she did not get PG until after she was married. I dont know just what she may have done before getting married but whatever it was at least she did not get PG. Or end up in trouble with the law

Fast forward a bit....I am re-married and have two boys and a daughter who will be 13 next month, do I worry?... OH YEA I do. She is a straight A kid loves school and our church, but I also know that things can change in a minute with a teenager.

My oldest son just turned 16 in June, one day he acts like he is full grown and the sweetest most caring man the world has ever known....and then the next day he is fighting with his younger brother and acting like he is 4 years old again....I think they call that being a teenager.

When I talk to him I tell him that I am not guessing about what is going on with him because I once WAS a 16 year old boy, so far it has worked and I am too thankful to describe that he is not doing the same things that I was when I was that 16 year old boy.

And lets face it folks, without sex none of us would be here. Now just what age that should happen at is the question, in some countries they still start out very very young for what we as Americans consider appropriate and it is accepted by those societies. But then how many of us had sex while still in High School? Without ever meeting most of you in person I would guess that answer would be most of us. Yes that is an admission on my part. Am I proud of it? well I sure was then but not so much now but the truth is the truth.

Now given the situation in the OP I have no idea of what I would have done other than to know that I most likely would have never pulled a gun on the boys. I say most likely because I have no intention of ever pulling a gun unless I am ready to shoot something or someone, but I also realize the intensity of such an encounter could very well send logical thought out the window.

Had they been raping my daughter all bets are off on that and I expect that I would have shot them both......I expect.....there is no way to know for sure what we will do in most situations before they happen other than to know for sure if we feel the need to go to the restroom that we are all going to look for a place to do so as quickly as we can. Predicting our actions for most anything else is simply a guess as educated and thought out as that guess may be.

IMO the biggest blame in this matter goes to the girl for allowing it to happen, it is hard for any male to turn down a willing female, not impossible but very hard so I would have blamed my daughter had that been me. But I sure would not have hit her and 17 is a bit old IMO to be placed across daddies knees for an old fashioned spanking. I would expect that I would hurt her where and how it hurts the most these days....taking away the electronics and freedom to come and go for awhile. The fact that it was two boys I would likely look for some professional help for her also. I wont say that the boys have no fault in the matter but the girl being willing is the biggest reason that this happened.

While a lot of the times that kids get into trouble these days it can be traced back to the parents that isnt always the case as kids will be kids, people will be people. Peer pressure is stronger than parenting in a lot of cases. The older that our children get the more they become their own person and everyone will become that person regardless of what kind of parents that they had, as I said sometimes a correlation can be made with the parents and sometimes not.

Being a parent is the hardest job in the world right up there with being a military spouse and I have been one since I was 20, I will be 54 next month. I have already buried my first born son from MD he would be 33 had he lived.

I also still have a boy who will be 12 in Nov and my oldest Gran-daughter was 10 in April. I consider myself lucky in that my oldest is a success but that only makes me worry more about these three. I know my situation isnt a normal one but I am far from the only person who finds themselves in such a situation.

I love all my kids dearly but there are times when I question my decisions, kinda like tonight because for whatever the reason all three of them are wound up and bouncing off the walls when all dad wants is a little piece and quiet to surf and hang out on TGO:rolleyes:

For those who say that they would kick their daughter to the street over this mistake, all I can say is WOW. An ongoing problem with this behavior would be a different matter but for a first offense???....WOW.

And I say that knowing full well that just because this was the first time that the girl was caught that it probably wasnt the first time that she had done this. I am not saying that I would never kick one of my kids to the street but it would most likely take more than being caught once.

I dont know what to say about the dad other than if he is that quick to pull a gun and say the things that is was alleged that he said, then he should feel lucky that his emotions did not cause him to actually shoot one or both of the boys. He does not sound like the type that should be carrying 24/7. But as usual we only have a reporters version of the story to go on.

[Guest WingMan380]

Seem like dad didn't raise his daughter right and he got pissed about it as well as just another example of the debasement of american morals.

I totally agree!

[Guest WingMan380]

I pray the day I become a father, it's to two or three boys, and no girls. Don't know what I'd do if I came home and my daughter was having a threesome or a foursome in my house....especially at that age.

I have 3 boys ages 11, 6 and 5. I hope and pray that I am doing the best job I can in teaching my kids how to respect women by treating my wife with love and respect as well as talking to them about how to talk to and treat the ladies.

[E4 No More]

No, it's never been banned from the forum, far as I know.

I never said anything about your religion or anyone else's. I said "your opinion".

I'll keep what the obvious penguin says about the connection between sex and religion to myself.

But I will continue to express my displeasure of the hypocrisy found here over the subject of sex. The "I had sex but by god, you're evil and worthless if you have sex too".

I guess taking veiled shots at people's religious beliefs are ok...if you are a moderator. For the record, I didn't need the bible to tell me what she did was wrong. I learned that on my own.

By your statements I supposed you'd be ok with it if you came home to find your wife doing a couple of guys in your bedroom, right? After all, sex is natural, right? Marriage means nothing because it's only a God thing, right? I guess you missed the part of the law requiring only a marriage license and a justice of the peace.

[NRA]

[strickj]

I guess taking veiled shots at people's religious beliefs are ok...if you are a moderator. For the record, I didn't need the bible to tell me what she did was wrong. I learned that on my own.

By your statements I supposed you'd be ok with it if you came home to find your wife doing a couple of guys in your bedroom, right? After all, sex is natural, right? Marriage means nothing because it's only a God thing, right? I guess you missed the part of the law requiring only a marriage license and a justice of the peace.

Oh brother.

I never made a jab at you or your religion. Some religions say eating certain foods is wrong. Some religions say that listening to music is wrong. Some religions say having sex is wrong. You take religion out of it and she did nothing wrong.That's all I'm pointing out here.

I never said that sleeping around or cheating is right. This girl was not sleeping around. This near legal adult was having sex with her bf. No one knows what the 3rd guy was doing. Maybe he was watching tv in the other room the story said she and her bf were nude and the other guy was clothed...

The same story that alleges the father hit her 100 times also alleges it was a threesome.

I never said I have a problem with marriage or god. I simply said marriage is a thing of man.

Sure, you can get married outside of church. You can even be married by common law....but the gov is not telling us premarital sex is wrong, which is what this thread is about. Only some religions tell us that.

[E4 No More]

Oh brother.

I never made a jab at you or your religion. Some religions say eating certain foods is wrong. Some religions say that listening to music is wrong. Some religions say having sex is wrong. You take religion out of it and she did nothing wrong.That's all I'm pointing out here.

I never said that sleeping around or cheating is right. This girl was not sleeping around. This near legal adult was having sex with her bf. No one knows what the 3rd guy was doing. Maybe he was watching tv in the other room the story said she and her bf were nude and the other guy was clothed...

The same story that alleges the father hit her 100 times also alleges it was a threesome.

I never said I have a problem with marriage or god. I simply said marriage is a thing of man.

Sure, you can get married outside of church. You can even be married by common law....but the gov is not telling us premarital sex is wrong, which is what this thread is about. Only some religions tell us that.

Referencing the "old book" in the context that you used is pretty clearly a jab at Christians particularly in consideration of during the considerable time that I have participated in this forum I have noticed numerous posts from you knocking Christianity. If you don't want to believe the bible that's your choice; but I'm growing weary of people on this forum knocking me for my beliefs even if it's not directly aimed at me in particular when it's done. You amongst many others on this forum show complete ignorance of the bible, (which certainly is your/their right), but at least don't mouth-off out of ignorance. It just makes you look petty and intolerant.

[Guest TresOsos]

I'd just like to inject on thing here...ahhhh....it was God that gave the concept of marriage to man and not the other way around.

Man might have injected the licencing and fee thing into it for revenue, but the original concept was from God to Man.

[strickj]

Referencing the "old book" in the context that you used is pretty clearly a jab at Christians particularly in consideration of during the considerable time that I have participated in this forum I have noticed numerous posts from you knocking Christianity. If you don't want to believe the bible that's your choice; but I'm growing weary of people on this forum knocking me for my beliefs even if it's not directly aimed at me in particular when it's done. You amongst many others on this forum show complete ignorance of the bible, (which certainly is your/their right), but at least don't mouth-off out of ignorance. It just makes you look petty and intolerant.

I have never knocked you or Christianity in this thread. I have simply pointed out that some religions (any of them) says sex is wrong.

You are seeing something that is not there and that is your problem. I am not apologizing for it.

As far as my ignorance goes, how do you know what I have studied, read or once believed? Do you call everyone ignorant, petty and intolerant that does not hold to your believes?

[BigK]

I have never knocked you or Christianity in this thread.

I have no doubt that you are intelligent enough to know what "reverence" is and what beliefs are held sacred by Christians. That is why I don't believe for a second that you don't realize that comments like...

Isn't family more important then your opinion on what an old book says?

...are very antagonistic and inflammatory to Christians. Based on your history on TGO of making anti-Christian comments and the reactions you've gotten, I think you carefully choose to use comments like this. I may be mistaken, but I get the distinct impression that enjoy antagonizing Christians for their faith.

I do not recall a single instance when someone belittled, mocked, or took jabs at your or anyone else's lack of a religion. Assuming you have no religious faith and hold no ideals with the sacred regard that Christians have for God, the Holy Bible, and Jesus; how is it that you are so offended when someone else does that you feel the need to "put them in their place"? Our faith should not detract from your lack thereof.

[Caster]

I often wonder how one group of people can be so happy believing in something you cannot physically prove while another group of people are tormented their entire lives trying to convince & argue with everyone that the same does NOT exist.

[strickj]

I have no doubt that you are intelligent enough to know what "reverence" is and what beliefs are held sacred by Christians. That is why I don't believe for a second that you don't realize that comments like...

...are very antagonistic and inflammatory to Christians. Based on your history on TGO of making anti-Christian comments and the reactions you've gotten, I think you carefully choose to use comments like this. I may be mistaken, but I get the distinct impression that enjoy antagonizing Christians for their faith.

Point to one post where I have ever antagonized anyone. Again, I NEVER mentioned Christians or any other faith. I was simply pointing out that some religions say sex is wrong. If you're butt hurt over that, then get over it.

I do not recall a single instance when someone belittled, mocked, or took jabs at your or anyone else's lack of a religion. Assuming you have no religious faith and hold no ideals with the sacred regard that Christians have for God, the Holy Bible, and Jesus; how is it that you are so offended when someone else does that you feel the need to "put them in their place"? Our faith should not detract from your lack thereof.

What? You are seeing something that is not there. I am not mocking anyone. I have not said that your god sucks, your religion sucks or anything else of the such. The purpose of the post you quoted, and the only reason, was to express my dismay of people saying their child "would be dead to them". The particular sentence you're taking out of context was to express my dismay with people choosing to hold onto their good book instead of loving their child.

If you're offended for me saying it's stupid to throw a child out with the bath water because she pee'd in it, then I don't know what to tell you.

[peejman]

I have no doubt that you are intelligent enough to know what "reverence" is and what beliefs are held sacred by Christians. That is why I don't believe for a second that you don't realize that comments like...

...are very antagonistic and inflammatory to some Christians. ...

Fixed.

I choose not to let such comments bother me. Instances of changing someone's opinion on topics such as this via a web forum are exceedingly rare in my experience. Hence, I (typically) choose not to engage in such debates. At the end of the day, both parties have simply wasted a lot of time. I have little of that to spare.

Now... back to your regularly scheduled (on-topic) thread discussion...

[BigK]

Point to one post where I have ever antagonized anyone. Again, I NEVER mentioned Christians or any other faith. I was simply pointing out that some religions say sex is wrong. If you're butt hurt over that, then get over it.

It had ready been pointed out earlier in THIS post that your irreverent referral to The Holy Bible as if it's just any old book was offensive. So I'm not the only one who felt antagonized by that comment. You were not quoted out of context and it does not take an explicit declaration with Christianity singled out to see your intent.

[Mike.357]

Personally, I would have excused the boys, by police if necessary, and refused conversation with the girl as I threw her out of my house. Don't call, don't write, leave, and never come back. If she wants to be a whore, that's her choice, but to disrespect her father's house is not excusable. Forgive her and release her to the world. .....yup, good thing I have no kids.

so if it was reversed and it was your son with two girls would you still disown him?

[Guest justluck]

so if it was reversed and it was your son with two girls would you still disown him?

I want to see the answer to this question. I'm old, lived a long life - been there, done that. You need to temper your thinking with this: When you are a teenager and the hormones rage many things can happen. Love your kids and try to make a better outcome occur the next time.

[Jasongar8]

I don't think Caster really can say what he would do because he said himself he didn't have any kids of his own. Now he can talk all big and bad about throwing her out, but things change a little when you are really in a situation like that with a child you have raised their whole life.

People say that there is nothing their kids could to make them stop loving them, and I believe that is true.

[Mike.357]

I have two adult children, one got it right, learned all I taught through example and how I live my life. The other did not pick up on the first bit of it.

No matter how hard we tried the one just did not get it. I wonder where we went wrong. Finally decided all you can do is your best.

I love them both equally, sometimes it is a curse.

what an interesting thread this is.

Strick when you wrote "old book" I thought you meant Jews.

[Links2k]

Finally decided all you can do is your best.

That's the bottom line regardless how perfect we think that we have been as parents.

[strickj]

It had ready been pointed out earlier in THIS post that your irreverent referral to The Holy Bible as if it's just any old book was offensive. So I'm not the only one who felt antagonized by that comment. You were not quoted out of context and it does not take an explicit declaration with Christianity singled out to see your intent.

Whatever. I listed one very non-specific term that is in no way degrading you or your christian believes.

I think you are just angry with me for saying it's sad and pathetic that someone would throw the love of a child out the window and you're just using the one excerpt from my quote as fuel.

[BigK]

I would not throw my kid out for making a mistake, no matter how big the mistake is. I think that is tantamount to giving up and wrong.

In fact, regardless of what I'd let my daughter believe I'd do, I'd never react like this father did over this type of situation.