China opED on US downgrade

[Guest mikedwood]

After historic downgrade, U.S. must address its chronic debt problems

China thinks they own us now. Plus they have called for an international oversite of our dollar. How's that $3.00 bag of socks feeling now?

But this I find so freaking unreal. This is a qoute from the OPed

"Thus, if no substantial cuts were made to the U.S. gigantic military expenditure and bloated social welfare costs, the downgrade would prove to be only a prelude to more devastating credit rating cuts, which will further roil the global financial markets all along the way."'

Communist China dogging us on social welfare programs? Though I think in the communist system everyone is pretty much expected to work doing something.

[RobertNashville]

I can't believe it! I mean, just about all of the Tennessee delegation who voted for this wonderful "2011 Budget Control Act" have been crowing about what a good deal it was and how it saved us from default and a rating downgrade - even those who voted against are claiming that they've "changed the talk in Washington from how much can we spend to to how much can we cut". What utter rubbish.

Blackburn and Black and Alexander and the rest of them seem willing to sell the country down the river in exchange for staying on the invite list for the Washington social calendar. I hope all you are prepared for higher interest rates on your credit cards, student loans, and mortgages...next step is the U.S. Dollar no longer being the standard world currency.

I've little hope for our economy and, therefore, little hope for our country.

[mikegideon]

They should probably be more concerned over the "gigantic military expendature". We suck at almost everything, but we still dish out the very best ass whippin's :-). I may have Chinese underwear, but all my weapons are made somewhere else. The American ones seem to work better than the rest.

[DaveTN]

As long as we can afford to build ballistic submarines we don’t have to pay anything.

[DaveTN]

They should probably be more concerned over the "gigantic military expendature". We suck at almost everything, but we still dish out the very best ass whippin's :-). I may have Chinese underwear, but all my weapons are made somewhere else. The American ones seem to work better than the rest.

We may be fat & lazy but we build on hell of a bomb.

[DaveTN]

I've little hope for our economy and, therefore, little hope for our country.

We did this. Let’s see if our kids can get us out of it.

[Guest mikedwood]

Rep Chuck Fleischmann did not vote for the debt deal. A big thank you to him. Took some guts for the new kid on the block to standup to the old bullies like that.

Every morning I hope I will wake up from this dream. It's like up is down and down is up and yesterday was today is tomorrow next week.

Well for the past 60 years or so we have worked to raise the standard of living in the world. I think we have. I don't know if that's good or bad, but it is. Now it's put us in a bad situation and I have a feeling we are about to be thrown under the bus. Maybe we deserve it I dunno.

But if China is successful I can't imagine that would be good at all. If the dollar isn't the reserve currency that would be like printing a buncha money over night wouldn't it? Just poof trillions appear looking for a place to be and no one really wants them.

Or perhaps worse would be an international committee looking after our finances. Would that be like declaring the US legally incompetent? To what level would that oversite entail? Would we allow it or consider it a violation of our sovereignty? Is it babble from China or possible?

[RobertNashville]

We did this. Let’s see if our kids can get us out of it.

I don't think our children can help.

Even the most optimistic scoring of last week's budget deal says we'll add 7-10 TRILLION dollars to the national debt over the next ten years...combined with the debt we already have and assuming a population of around 350 million (and assuming my math is working this morning); that works out to a bill of roughly $68.5 BILLION owed by every single person alive in the U.S. (and I'm not even adding the cost of interest into those figures).

Now...I know for a few, $68Billion is almost pocket change but I have a feeling that most people don't have that much laying around.

[MacGyver]

Your math isn't working. It's a big number, but not that big.

10 trillion divided by 350 million is about $28,571

[mikegideon]

$24,000,000,000,000 / 350,000,000 = $68,571.43

If we add 10 trillion, the debt is gonna be around 24 T, correct?

Edited August 7, 2011 by mikegideon

[Guest 6.8 AR]

The problem with that ballistic missile sub and that great bomb is, it will

be bought out of existence and will not solve anything. Wasn't it's purpose anyway.

You also have to have leadership with the intelligence and will to use it properly.

That doesn't exist.

China knows it will fall into oblivion along with the rest of the world if our economy

fails. They may be strong, but they are bluffing. They know what will happen to them

economically if currencies collapse. Most everyone's currencies are a house of cards,

right now. They are all dependent on one another. Our problems are real, so are theirs.

[MacGyver]

Between September 2008 and December 2008, over 60,000 factories of various sizes closed in China.

When Americans quit buying stuff, other economies go south quickly!

[Mike.357]

well look at the bright side, what we only goes up by about 30 grand from now.

[RobertNashville]

Your math isn't working. It's a big number, but not that big.

10 trillion divided by 350 million is about $28,571

Yeah...you are right and wrong...we've already got a national debt of $14.5Trillion; add another 10 Trillion over ten years (based on the legislation just passed last week) and we are looking at a national debt of around $24.5 Trillion which, as I said before, doesn't include any accrued interest and assumes the "cuts" the bill proposed actually do happen (look me up because if those cuts really do happen I'll happily buy you a keg of your favorite brew).

Ultimately, I had too many zeros...the bill comes out to only about $70,000 per individual...very true, not as bad as what I was suggesting but still out of the range of most people's budgets; especially when you consider that's everyone of any age.

It's even worse if you divide just the current debt by the number of actual taxpayers...that bill is already over $130,000 per.

Edited August 7, 2011 by RobertNashville

[MacGyver]

Yeah, I purposely just divided out the "additional" debt.

When you look at actual taxpayers or families as opposed to the total population it is both very sobering, and yet somehow takes the air out of the "we can't do it argument at the same time. Yes, it is a really big number, but it can be done. Families get out of debt all the time. It can be done. It's going to take some elected representatives brave enough to do it.

[Mike.357]

none of it matters, The math is semantics.

We owe more than cane ever realistically be paid off.

And I don't know how anyone can be very sure that the USA will still be here if it happens.

How about giving California or Hawaii to China to forgive the debt?

[mikegideon]

none of it matters, The math is semantics.

We owe more than cane ever realistically be paid off.

And I don't know how anyone can be very sure that the USA will still be here if it happens.

How about giving California or Hawaii to China to forgive the debt?

I could live with that. Wouldn't that make Obama Chinese after the deal was done?

[RobertNashville]

It's going to take some elected representatives brave enough to do it.

Very true...and that's why I have gone from thinking about it to seriously preparing for a breakdown in the economy because I've just about lost any hope that there are people out there who will run, will get elected, and will make the hard choices when they get there.

I believe the only real uncertainty now is not whether we are going to face a severe economic crisis but simply "when" and "how bad". People my age or older haven't seen what stagflation can do...people my parents age don't know what a real depression is like but I suspect that people who don't know are going to find out and then some.

[Mike.357]

I ain't so sure the Big O was born here anyway. If he is Chinese all the better.

[mikegideon]

Ahah... the Manchurian Candidate. Hang on, let me grab some Reynolds Wrap :-)

[Oh Shoot]

....Now...I know for a few, $68Billion is almost pocket change but I have a feeling that most people don't have that much laying around.

$24,000,000,000,000 / 350,000,000 = $68,571.43

The only way we can ever pay the debt, or eventually even the interest on the debt, is by inflating the money.

So the scary part is that everyone may become a billionaire, and $68K may actually be pocket change.

- OS

[mav]

The only way we can ever pay the debt, or eventually even the interest on the debt, is by inflating the money.

So the scary part is that everyone may become a billionaire, and $68K may actually be pocket change.

- OS

So, do you think we will get to the point of 1920's Germany when we are burning our money because it is cheaper than wood?

[Mike.357]

i think that will happen Mav

[RobertNashville]

So, do you think we will get to the point of 1920's Germany when we are burning our money because it is cheaper than wood?

Hyperinflation has happened more recently than 1930s Germany and it can happen here too.

A country's money supply get's expanded unchecked making the currency worthless...we like to think of it happening only in second-rate economies and/or where rules about such things (as monetizing the country's debt) prevents it from doing so but the U.S. is already effectively doing exactly that.

I'd like to think that the country can avoid it...can put some common sense back into our economic policy but I'm not hopeful about it.

[Oh Shoot]

So, do you think we will get to the point of 1920's Germany when we are burning our money because it is cheaper than wood?

Doubt it, as Very Bad Things would begin around the 50% inflation level, if not before. Money might well be just abandoned as an option by the majority.

This is a unique country, but now without a true national unifying ethos, I would consider any precedents in the world as non sequitur.

- OS