Downgraded.

[DaveTN]

Well one thing is absolutely sure….. We aren’t going to solve the problem or agree on a solution.

This is about money and lifestyle. We have seen it here to many times in to many posts. I believe most people will sell out their country to save a dime and then give you a lecture about why it’s the right thing to do.

[G27]

Well one thing is absolutely sure….. We aren’t going to solve the problem or agree on a solution.

Maybe, maybe not.

hehehe

This is about money and lifestyle. We have seen it here to many times in to many posts. I believe most people will sell out their country to save a dime and then give you a lecture about why it’s the right thing to do.

Well, most people do want to save money. No question. But framing it as 'selling out your country' isn't going to change anyone's mind, even if it's true - it'll just put them on the defensive.

The reality is nothing has changed - people went out of their way to save a buck 50 years ago just like today (heck, most people I know from that era are far more frugal than most people of today) - the difference is there weren't many foreign goods then, and they were crap - the US made stuff was much better quality.

Until we are consistently manufacturing things of that quality level again, we can't expect people to pay more based on where it's made. I certainly won't support any company who simply goes through the motions and expects me to buy a (/an often inferior) product just because it was made here. I know autos are a hot-button of yours, but they are the perfect example - I have two Hondas, both of which were made in the US of >75% US sourced parts, which were each ~$5k more than their US counterparts. The difference is the Hondas are better built than the US made products we compared them to - it wasn't even close. Can the US manufacturers compete with the Japanese and build high quality cars? Of course they can - but they have to stay on their toes and avoid the complacency we saw in the late 80's and most of the 90's.

The problem isn't a simple one, nor is the solution. Blindly supporting a company building an inferior product just because it's US made helps no one.

[Oh Shoot]

.....The problem isn't a simple one, nor is the solution. Blindly supporting a company building an inferior product just because it's US made helps no one.

Haven't really jumped into this fray, mainly because the issue is, as some demonstrate here, extremely nuanced, far far from black and white. I've come at least half circle from a blindly "Buy 'Mericun" point of view in last few years, and would posit that view is much more of a "patriotic feel good" than a meaningful difference maker.

One of my earliest quandaries came from playing nice golf clubs, the heads of which have been almost exclusively Asian (mostly Chinese) made for 20 years, regardless of saying Callaway, Taylormade, etc on them. Worldwide, more pros not paid to endorse a brand play Mizuno, which cuts out the middleman "native country" premise.

Lately I've bought some Chinese knives from Enlan, SRM, and Bee (which may be all part of same PRC megacorp, not sure), but these are the same companies that make knives for Spyderco, Buck, CKRT, Kershaw, etc etc.

The San Francisco Bay Bridge is being rebuilt with giant structural members floated over from China.

Etc etc etc. all tip of the iceberg examples.

I've read compelling articles that claim that the support for importing, stocking, selling, servicing and repairing foreign goods is responsible for more jobs than have actually been lost due to actual domestic product creation.

And it seems apparent to me that for a good while now, technology has simply made labor cheaper. Meaning, each year, forget about foreign competition, it simply takes fewer of us to produce the goods for more of us, and we'd likely be seeing about the same stagnant to lower wages and unemployment if we made everything here except tea and coffee.

The individual's economic worth has simply declined with increase in population, wide duplication of educational skill sets, and increasing technological advance. Computers changed everything -- much of what used to be needed in individual engineering effort has now been standardized, and it leveled the playing field. China, and many other "non-first-world" countries can buy technology rather than create it from scratch rather than from the 99% perspiration 1% inspiration that equals genius.

It's all part of the upside down pyramid of population vs resources, with the great wild card of available science for a buck thrown in. Final point being, I still say it's inevitable that the population will be drastically decreased at some point. It may be a slow and steady world wide degradation, with a Russian gray pallor, but at some point there will be a crash.

It's really an environmental imbalance at heart (population/resources), but will be translated economically in practice. We have sophisticated our savagery and the planet will inevitably react with sophisticated savagery in kind. I call it environmental economics, and all will be well again for a few hundred years with maybe half the population gone.

In extended consideration, though, problem is that space exploration is the only ultimate hope of perpetuating our species beyond the relatively petty context of homo sapiens heretofore, and seems that once we reach the level of expertise to make a significant inroad on that, we futz the rest up to where we have to abandon it.

Perhaps we really are little different than x number of rabbits in x number of acres, doomed to repeat the cycle until ole Sol burns us up, though there's always the chance we can do it on our own well before then.

Or the right asteroid hits.

As always, I try to end on an optimistic note.

- OS

Edited August 7, 2011 by OhShoot

[mav]

While I do enjoy reading your posts OhShoot, that was rather depressing. If we set aside the argument for an inevitable population reduction, I would be interested to hear your thoughts on what can be or should be done to help fix this mess we have created.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

One thing to keep in mind-- It seems fairly common that people of a certain (ahem) age are tempted to believe that the world will go to hell shortly after they themselves do. I notice the tendency in myself.

For instance there have recently been famous aged environmental scientists to predict that the world will burn up shortly after they themselves croak.

It is also a technique used by prophets over the ages. If you are proved wrong after you are dead it is not nearly as embarrassing. Safest to predict dire events which shall happen after one's own demise.

Codgers generally tend to think the world is going to hell in a handbasket.

This phenomena may be related to millenarianism, though millenarianism can affect people of any age. Perhaps geezers are slightly more susceptible to millenarianism?

Millenarianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Millenarian groups claim that the current society and its rulers are corrupt, unjust, or otherwise wrong. They therefore believe they will be destroyed soon by a powerful force. The harmful nature of the status quo is always considered intractable without the anticipated dramatic change.

The wikipedia article associates this with a belief in 1000 year cycles, but then the article cites many examples which have nothing to do with 1000 year cycles.

I think many doom and gloom beliefs are related to the psychology of millenarianism. Not only are global warming believers eat up with it, but folks like Alex Jones are millenarianism incarnate.

On the other hand, the doctor says it will kill you but he don't say when. Maybe the world really will end shortly after me and OS kick the bucket!

[Guest mikedwood]

I think the small and mid size businesses are the key. But the probelm I see is that they can't afford a lobbiest and get the breaks like the mega corps. Mega corps that can lobby are getting some insane breaks and often get to write their own rules. I don't like that. It's not free market, it's not competion and it's one thing that is Killing us.

It has also gotten much more difficult than need be to open a new business. Just to open a simple little business you need an accountant and a lawyer right off the bat, and to just lay down on the desk of an insurance agent or two, just for something tiny.

I also really believe that part of the problem isn't that the US can't compete cost wise with other countries. Part of the problem is the age of our factories. I have seen pictures of the new factories in China and the old ones over here. We lose. When they do decide to plunk the cash down and build new up to date plants here, we don't mess around. That Nissan plant in Symrna impresses the bosses from what I hear as well as others. Build a new factory here and you stand a good chance, especially using TVA subsidised power (If they cut that out we will be so freakin screwed on business and personal level.)

Also if you make a design and decide to build something in China then chances are (if it's a good idea) they will also make it for someone who will beat you to market with your own design. Old tried and true products they just counterfeit as a matter of course. The counterfeiting is so rampant there, they are even counterfeiting entire stores now. That will hurt them in the long run I think. Perhaps could be a factor in the China bubble bursting (and it will one day, be it 2 years to 200 it will burst)

Also I'm getting so sick of something happening one or two freakin times, the new pounces on it and they come up with a law or reg so it will "never happen again".

I own my own small business and most of my customers are all types of small businesses. I don't know much from any books and what I have read in books on small business is flawed. The main problems they are having right now is paying a blistering amount of insurance and the tightening of credit has almost collapsed even the most savey (almost but not quite)

[Oh Shoot]

While I do enjoy reading your posts OhShoot, that was rather depressing. If we set aside the argument for an inevitable population reduction, I would be interested to hear your thoughts on what can be or should be done to help fix this mess we have created.

I'm afraid I see a population crash as inevitable, just a matter of when.

It doesn't take a tree hugger to perceive that population has simply over driven the resources for quite some time. The finite amount of x resource doesn't really matter past a certain point, what matters is the cost to get it through your gas tank, water/electrical/gas meter, or alimentary canal; and I see no scenario where overall individual effort will be anything but continually devalued, again due to that double edged sword of technology that has both provided our supply line, but has also allowed us to breed beyond its affordable capacity.

Nobody really says much about the almost 7 billion of us, as it's the 800 pound gorilla about which we can do nothing.

Environmental degradation can't prune us back quickly enough, but the related economic collapse can.

On the bright side, I'm obviously wrong -- until I'm not.

- OS

[Guest lostpass]

Haven't really jumped into this fray, mainly because the issue is, as some demonstrate here, extremely nuanced, far far from black and white. I've come at least half circle from a blindly "Buy 'Mericun" point of view in last few years, and would posit that view is much more of a "patriotic feel good" than a meaningful difference maker.

One of my earliest quandaries came from playing nice golf clubs, the heads of which have been almost exclusively Asian (mostly Chinese) made for 20 years, regardless of saying Callaway, Taylormade, etc on them. Worldwide, more pros not paid to endorse a brand play Mizuno, which cuts out the middleman "native country" premise.

Lately I've bought some Chinese knives from Enlan, SRM, and Bee (which may be all part of same PRC megacorp, not sure), but these are the same companies that make knives for Spyderco, Buck, CKRT, Kershaw, etc etc.

The San Francisco Bay Bridge is being rebuilt with giant structural members floated over from China.

Etc etc etc. all tip of the iceberg examples.

I've read compelling articles that claim that the support for importing, stocking, selling, servicing and repairing foreign goods is responsible for more jobs than have actually been lost due to actual domestic product creation.

And it seems apparent to me that for a good while now, technology has simply made labor cheaper. Meaning, each year, forget about foreign competition, it simply takes fewer of us to produce the goods for more of us, and we'd likely be seeing about the same stagnant to lower wages and unemployment if we made everything here except tea and coffee.

The individual's economic worth has simply declined with increase in population, wide duplication of educational skill sets, and increasing technological advance. Computers changed everything -- much of what used to be needed in individual engineering effort has now been standardized, and it leveled the playing field. China, and many other "non-first-world" countries can buy technology rather than create it from scratch rather than from the 99% perspiration 1% inspiration that equals genius.

It's all part of the upside down pyramid of population vs resources, with the great wild card of available science for a buck thrown in. Final point being, I still say it's inevitable that the population will be drastically decreased at some point. It may be a slow and steady world wide degradation, with a Russian gray pallor, but at some point there will be a crash.

It's really an environmental imbalance at heart (population/resources), but will be translated economically in practice. We have sophisticated our savagery and the planet will inevitably react with sophisticated savagery in kind. I call it environmental economics, and all will be well again for a few hundred years with maybe half the population gone.

In extended consideration, though, problem is that space exploration is the only ultimate hope of perpetuating our species beyond the relatively petty context of homo sapiens heretofore, and seems that once we reach the level of expertise to make a significant inroad on that, we futz the rest up to where we have to abandon it.

Perhaps we really are little different than x number of rabbits in x number of acres, doomed to repeat the cycle until ole Sol burns us up, though there's always the chance we can do it on our own well before then.

Or the right asteroid hits.

As always, I try to end on an optimistic note.

- OS

I'm not quite sure about the population crash notion. Sure, you an argue carrying capacity and all and imagine that at some point it there has to be a huge crash in the population of folks on earth. Thing is, you're already seeing it and it doesn't seem that bad.

Last time I checked the population was changing from rural to urban ( I think this is US crossed the fifty percent mark few years ago). Which wouldn't seem to matter, a person is a person and a burden on the environment after all. But it turns out it is germane.

In rural settings children are a resource. If you have fourteen kids that is fourteen illegal immigrants you don't have to hire to get crops from the field to the table. In an urban setting children are more or less leeches. It sounds terrible and all but that is the way it is. Sure, you can give them a can of endust and jobs but all you can really replace is a maid. And the kids do a crap job anyway...

So people in urban settings, which is an ever growing number of people, have less kids than necessary for population replacement. I have heard, but no versified, that the US would have negative population growth if not for immigration. Japan, I believe already has negative population growth. Same with Russia.

The easiest way to grow an economy is to get more consumers and producers so you can kind of see why the government pretends to care about illegal immigration but doesn't.

I could be wrong, maybe none of this is right. Sad to say, either way, the future will be interesting.

[Oh Shoot]

....On the other hand, the doctor says it will kill you but he don't say when. Maybe the world really will end shortly after me and OS kick the bucket!

After? That part doesn't concern me.

Actually, though I do postulate "biblical" magnitudes of kill off, it will of course be far from "end of the world". Short of a natural worldwide physical cataclysm (that special asteroid/comet which logically will again hit, super-volcano, sun flare, etc), or some sort of nuclear self-snuff, humans as a species are almost as resilient as cockroaches.

- OS

[DaveTN]

I see some of you started drinking after I left last night.

[mikegideon]

I see some of you started drinking after I left last night.

[TGO David]

What do you want the government to do? What’s the Tea Party going to do? Because unless the Tea Party is going to cause you to quit buying ricer cars or foreign made guns; I don’t see how they can help. If they are going to do or say something that will cause you not to turn your back on your country…. Sign me up now.

The American people can cause the economy to recover tomorrow…. Or not.

I get so tired of this economic seclusionist nonsense. If you're THAT hell-bent on American Made or Bust, hurry up now and get rid of everything you own that was made in some "ricer" country and use nothing but American Made products.

Start with your computer.

[Worriedman]

The American people need to try to buy products that are produced here by American skilled trades and labor; not simply imported and bolted together here.

American manufacturers cannot compete with foreign manufactures on price…. Period. Not when they are bound by the rules and regulations of doing business in this country.

And, the Chinese are not saddled with the Labor Unions and their purchase of elected officials. See what the result of the UAW is on Caterpillar, it is moving out of Peoria at a pace that has to be seen to be believed. Add to that the tax situation in Illinois, and the flight from that State to Texas can be understood. Being involved in Manufacturing Construction, at least Cat is doing a lot of in-country building thank goodness, albeit in States that have right-to-work rules.

[Worriedman]

Remove the blanket on oil exploration and production, make EPA allow new refinery construction, put coal plant new restrictions on hold till the unemployment rate is 5%. See what that does to growth.

[Il Duce]

We have to bring our manufacturing base back. We have to manufacture product here using American labor, not bolt together what is manufactured overseas. We need the skilled trade jobs; not just the assembly jobs.

Its getting very hard to buy products made by Americans and in some markets (Electronics) impossible. Even Ford and GM have turned their backs on the country that made them what they are. They have moved much of their business to Mexico and Canada.

At least make an attempt to buy what is made by your neighbors and supports our economy. Why would anyone buy a Glock or an XD made overseas when they can buy a higher quality Smith & Wesson made right here by Americans?

Because a lot of things made here are not of higher quality.....cars being one of them.

[DaveTN]

Because a lot of things made here are not of higher quality.....cars being one of them.

Oh :bs:you weren’t even old enough to drive the last time a foreign company made a higher quality car than us.

[mikegideon]

I get so tired of this economic seclusionist nonsense. If you're THAT hell-bent on American Made or Bust, hurry up now and get rid of everything you own that was made in some "ricer" country and use nothing but American Made products.

Start with your computer.

Start with ANYTHING electronic, and not just consumer grade stuff either. I have had high grade blank circuit boards made in China, where the boards and final products were assembled and tested in the US. If I'm not mistaken, even some of the military products had chinese boards. Hard to tell just looking at them.

[mikegideon]

Oh :bs:you weren’t even old enough to drive the last time a foreign company made a higher quality car than us.

Who's been drinkin' now?

[DaveTN]

Who's been drinkin' now?

[Mike.357]

I would put a F150 up against any equivilant rice burner but other than that you can't be serious.

[Guest bkelm18]

Nvm. I need a break from being an ******* today.

[TGO David]

I would put a F150 up against any equivilant rice burner but other than that you can't be serious.

I bet my F-150 Raptor has more foreign made components than domestic.

[Mike.357]

keep a truck for 14 years then tell me if it's worthwhile. I am not 100% sure but you have not kept a vehicle for more than two years since i have been here, not sure how your opinion on quality is valid.

[mav]

Well, it looks like the WH and the statists are already shifting the blame. They are saying the downgrade was the fault of Bush and the Tea Party. While I am not surprised by this in the least, I am somewhat stunned at how many people actually believe it.

Question. Why do you think there are so many people who cannot or will not see that a lot of this mess was brought on by the government? Is it because almost half the population is having their life/livelihood subsidized by the government?

[Mike.357]

They are saying the downgrade was the fault of Bush and the Tea Party.

did you really think that t he Big O was going to say anything was his fault. If the dude farts he blames it on Bush. Now that blaming Bush is not realistic the Tea baggers are the target.