Downgraded.

[mav]

What do you want the government to do? What’s the Tea Party going to do? Because unless the Tea Party is going to cause you to quit buying ricer cars or foreign made guns; I don’t see how they can help. If they are going to do or say something that will cause you not to turn your back on your country…. Sign me up now.

The American people can cause the economy to recover tomorrow…. Or not.

While my viewpoint is pessimistic, I think it is grounded in reality. I am becoming so cynical that I almost believe the problem cannot be solved. There is no political will, nor is there any will on behalf of a lot of americans to do what is necessary to preserve this country. Heck, just reading some of the responses on various threads on TGO make it pretty much evident that things will not be fixed. However, I will hold out what little hope I have left until the next election. If things cannot be turned around (meaning voting out the statists in both parties) during the next election, then the game is over.

You ask, "what do you want the government to do?" Here are a few things they can do to stave off impending doom.

1. A balanced budget ammendment ( you can't spend more than you take in)

2. Entitlement reform on social security, medicaid, and medicare

3. Tax reform. We have to broaden the tax base and do away with the class warfare system we currently have. The system should treat all americans as equals.

4. Repeal Obamacare.

5. Insurance and tort reform.

6. End subsidies to industries that cannot survive own their own in a market based economy, e.g. ethanol, airlines, etc...

7. Remove of bunch of regulations that hinder businesses

8. Eliminate collective bargaining (federal employees don't have it), and make all states right to work states

9. Reform and enforce strong immigration policies

10. Reduce the taxes on businesses

11. Do away with the community reinvestment act, and eventually dissolve Fannie and Freddie

12. Get out of the boondoggles, which are Iraq and Afghanistan. What are we actually going to gain and will they ever end? We need to take the advice of John Quincy Adams, who believed in moral support of independence movements, but not armed intervention. He stated that america, "does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy."

I could spend hours listing things the governments need, or don't not need, to do. What I listed above is just a few things the governments could do to correct the problem we are currently facing. If implemented, I think we would not only fix our financial mess, but we would also have unprecedented growth.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Well, DaveTN, you can always stick your

head in the sand and hope it will work out.

The Tea Party is a bunch of us people who

don't like the government wrapping it's hands

around our throats. In case you haven't noticed,

it is a growing movement of concerned American

citizens, possibly like you.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Guest HvyMtl]

Hmm. The Tea Party is full of contradictions right now, and needs to sort it out (example: cut socialistic programs, but don't you dare touch my medicare / social security) And the Koch brother's influence on the direction of the party must be removed...

That said. I like how this non-governmental entity can have so much power... (sarcasm)

"The political brinksmanship of recent months highlights what we see as America's governance and policymaking becoming less stable, less effective, and less predictable than what we previously believed"

"The statutory debt ceiling and the threat of default have become political bargaining chips in the debate over fiscal policy"

"It appears that for now, new revenues have dropped down on the menu of policy options"

"Compared with previous projections, our revised base case scenario now assumes that the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts, due to expire by the end of 2012, remain in place. We have changed our assumption on this because the majority of Republicans in Congress continue to resist any measure that would raise revenues"

Source: S&P downgrade statement.

In other words, the S&P were looking towards the US increasing "revenues" (taxes) to cover its expenses. No chance of that anytime soon.

Certainly not from the GOP side: Boehner:But it became pretty clear to me that I wasn't going to be for higher taxes, and the president wasn't going to cut spending as he should.

Boehner:When you look at this final agreement that we came to with the white House, I got 98 percent of what I wanted. I'm pretty happy. (source: Boehner: I got 98 percent of what I wanted - CBS News)

So the GOP Speaker got 98% of what he wanted in the deal ending the Debt Ceiling issue, and that stance seems to have killed the US Credit Rating...

Simple: Cut spending and increase revenue to cover the spending you cannot / do not want to cut. Sounds pretty darn simple, doesn't it? (sarcasm)

[Guest bkelm18]

What do you want the government to do? What’s the Tea Party going to do? Because unless the Tea Party is going to cause you to quit buying ricer cars or foreign made guns; I don’t see how they can help. If they are going to do or say something that will cause you not to turn your back on your country…. Sign me up now.

The American people can cause the economy to recover tomorrow…. Or not.

I hate to break it to you, but you are never, ever, ever going to see what you're hoping to see. This country has gone too far down the road of "world economy" to turn back now. So, as I said in another thread some while ago, people like yourself really have two options, get off their lofty perch and actually come up with realistic solutions instead of alienating themselves, or break off and form your own country, which in the slim chance your revolution did succeed, the new-found gov't would likely collapse on itself shortly after since it will be filled with nothing but ideologues who really have no idea how a country operates in this day and age. I wish the Tea Party had the cojones to do what it says it wants to do, but it doesn't. All it's doing is fracturing the political right. However, incessant stubbornness and an unrelenting desire to bombard those who you do not agree with cute little insults of abandonment surely aren't going to help. You can keep your head in the clouds, I'll keep my feet on the ground. Dark times are ahead.

[Guest HvyMtl]

bkem18, I think you have something there. The concept of "world trade" and "world economy" sold to us in the 1990's is the root cause. Removing tariffs, and pushing the jobs out of the US, to other nations (China mostly) in the name of "world trade" has left the US economy far weaker than it should be. Selling "world trade" to us in the guise of better economy has sunk us, when the PATRIOTIC thing to do would have been to protect the US Economy, so when we do have to go to war, we can afford to, unlike now...

[mav]

bkem18, I think you have something there. The concept of "world trade" and "world economy" sold to us in the 1990's is the root cause. Removing tariffs, and pushing the jobs out of the US, to other nations (China mostly) in the name of "world trade" has left the US economy far weaker than it should be. Selling "world trade" to us in the guise of better economy has sunk us, when the PATRIOTIC thing to do would have been to protect the US Economy, so when we do have to go to war, we can afford to, unlike now...

Whether "world trade" has or has not wrecked our economy, it is a moot point. As bkhelm 18 stated, "This country has gone too far down the road of 'world economy' to turn back now." So, what do we do now? Do we continue to enlarge the nanny state, which will pretty much guarantee that we will not be competitive, or do we create an environment that will allow US business to effectively compete with other countries?

Edited August 6, 2011 by mav
typo

[DaveTN]

bkem18, I think you have something there. The concept of "world trade" and "world economy" sold to us in the 1990's is the root cause. Removing tariffs, and pushing the jobs out of the US, to other nations (China mostly) in the name of "world trade" has left the US economy far weaker than it should be. Selling "world trade" to us in the guise of better economy has sunk us, when the PATRIOTIC thing to do would have been to protect the US Economy, so when we do have to go to war, we can afford to, unlike now...

You are correct, but it’s not just from the 1990’s. It’s still being defended by many (most) on this forum today.

I’m ashamed that my generation started selling us out. We knew it was wrong when we were doing it. Some of my generation instilled in their kids (today’s generation) that it is okay, because they didn’t want to admit the mistake they had made.

Today’s generation has lost all common sense; they think you need a degree in economics to understand or fix the problem.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Mav, that is an excellent list. Good job. You didn't list anything I disagree with.

Cuts have to be made but dunno if the majority of voters have the nerve for it. Too many people squeal like a pig about cutting a billion over 10 years when we actually need to cut 1600 billion per year. It has to be a solution that won't get the good guys voted out after 2 years, replaced by commies.

Tax reform, right on! When evaluating tax reform proposals, here are some things to consider--

1. Is the tax reform revenue-neutral? If the tax reform is less than revenue-neutral than it means we have to cut MORE than 1600 billion per year.

2. Unless the budget is balanced, a less-than-revenue-neutral tax refom is just another deficit-spending keynsian stimulus. No different than any other deficit spending keynsian stimulus.

The ONLY time we have had a non-deficit-spending tax cut was the first few years of the Kennedy tax cuts. When people brag about the miracle of the Reagan or Bush tax cuts, they are foolishly bragging about the success of deficit spending keynsian stimulus. And they claim to hate the idea of deficit-spending keynsian stimulus. I love tax cuts and hate paying tax, but the truth is the truth.

3. If the tax reform is revenue-neutral, do the strong reform advocates stand to pay less tax? If that is the case, then the reform is doomed because of the class-warfare angle. In addition, if the strongest advocates will pay less tax under their favorite plan, then there is probably something fishy with the plan. For instance my favorite tax reform would eliminate all tax on small-time computer programmers and raise tax on everybody else! As far as I can tell, my plan is near perfect!

4. So a realistic politically palateable tax reform, in absence of at least 1600 billion per year spending cuts, will need to raise tax on lots of people and reduce tax on nobody. If the tax reform does not do that, then it will be perceived by too many voters as "unfair" and the good guys will be voted out in 2 years. Most voters will HAVE to perceive the change as true "shared sacrifice" or it won't stand.

If just about everybody gets a tax cut out of the tax reform, then that will mean that the proposed reform is either yet another con job boondoggle something-for-nothing scheme, or it will mean that we have cut a LOT MORE than 1600 billion per year out of the budget.

[DaveTN]

Whether "world trade" has or has not wrecked our economy, it is a moot point. As bkhelm 18 stated, "This country has gone too far down the roal of 'world economy' to turn back now." So, what do we do now?

As many; you have both given up.

Do we continue to enlarge the nanny state, which will pretty much guarantee that we will not be competitive, or do we create an environment that will allow US business to effectively compete with other countries?

It’s called protectionism and it’s only a dirty word if you aren’t a Patriot. You take care of your country and your family first.

We can compete with any nation on earth and we have outperformed them all. But we can’t compete on price; we are not on a level playing field to be able to do that. When you buy your guns, cars, etc., from countries that don’t have to deal with OSHA, the EPA, EEOC, lawsuits, etc.; you are turning your back on your country.

[mav]

You are correct, but it’s not just from the 1990’s. It’s still being defended by many (most) on this forum today.

I’m ashamed that my generation started selling us out. We knew it was wrong when we were doing it. Some of my generation instilled in their kids (today’s generation) that it is okay, because they didn’t want to admit the mistake they had made.

Today’s generation has lost all common sense; they think you need a degree in economics to understand or fix the problem.

Step up to the plate. What do you think needs to be done?

Nevermind. You stated it in the post before mine.

[DaveTN]

Step up to the plate. What do you think needs to be done?

Nevermind. You stated it in the post before mine.

We have to bring our manufacturing base back. We have to manufacture product here using American labor, not bolt together what is manufactured overseas. We need the skilled trade jobs; not just the assembly jobs.

It’s getting very hard to buy products made by Americans and in some markets (Electronics) impossible. Even Ford and GM have turned their backs on the country that made them what they are. They have moved much of their business to Mexico and Canada.

At least make an attempt to buy what is made by your neighbors and supports our economy. Why would anyone buy a Glock or an XD made overseas when they can buy a higher quality Smith & Wesson made right here by Americans?

[mav]

As many; you have both given up.

It’s called protectionism and it’s only a dirty word if you aren’t a Patriot. You take care of your country and your family first.

We can compete with any nation on earth and we have outperformed them all. But we can’t compete on price; we are not on a level playing field to be able to do that. When you buy your guns, cars, etc., from countries that don’t have to deal with OSHA, the EPA, EEOC, lawsuits, etc.; you are turning your back on your country.

I am turning my back on my country? That is 100% total BS.

In a previous post I listed a bunch of things the government could do to fix our economic situation. Sheesh, it is almost like you didn't even read it.

If we take a protectionist stance, do you think that the other countries are going to wring their hands and do nothing? No, they will become protectionists as well. In the end, nobody will win.

In the end, I think we are wanting the same things. However, we have vastly different approaches in getting there.

Edited August 6, 2011 by mav
added a line

[DaveTN]

I am turning my back on my country? That is 100% total BS.

I have no idea if you have turned your back on your country or not; only you know that.

In a previous post I listed a bunch of things the government could do to fix our economic situation. Sheesh, it is almost like you didn't even read it.

I read them. Every single one of the 12 points is something you think the government needs to do. Where is your responsibility in all this? Can you do nothing...You have no responsibility?

If we take a protectionist stance, do you think that the other countries are going to wring their hands and do nothing? No, they will become protectionists as well. In the end, nobody will win.

One thing you can rest assured of is that there will be winners and losers; it’s called competition. Right now we are losing and the Chinese and the Mexicans are winning. It’s up to you which side you want to be on.

In the end, I think we are wanting the same things. However, we have vastly different approaches in getting there.

Agreed.

[MacGyver]

Capital is going to flow to where it's cheapest. Period. Unless your plan recognizes this, it will fail. You can't put Pandora back in the box.

America, for all of our problems still does most of the innovating in the world. Some interesting things are afoot. A lot of small and mid-sized companies are actually moving their manufacturing back from China. It seems that if you aren't the size of Apple, you just don't get the attention you might expect. With the cost of oil on the rise, and transport costs going up all the "cost savings" aren't really materializing. People are deciding it's not worth it.

Our real problem is that not enough Americans actually care at all.

[DaveTN]

Our real problem is that not enough Americans actually care at all.

That’s what I said. You are just sugar coating it.

[mav]

Ya know, I have no idea what your stance is Dave. One minute you are talking protectionism and the next your are talking competition. Which one is it?

You pull one line from a post about americans not caring, but you miss the point of the other line which stated, "you can't put Pandora back in the box." I am confused.

In regards to increasing american manufacturing, I long for the day in which we make most of our own goods again. The only way I can ever see that happening is by reducing the size of government, removing the onerous regulations that it has placed on businesses, and lowering the tax rate of businesses (we have the highest in the world). Becoming energy independent would help as well. Essentially, we have to make it more cost competitive for companies to do business here. If this doesn't happen, we will go the way of Europe.

[DaveTN]

Ya know, I have no idea what your stance is Dave. I am confused.

I don’ know what to do about that. I can type slower if you think that would help.

You pull one line from a post about americans not caring, but you miss the point of the other line which stated, "you can't put Pandora back in the box." I am confused.

They were two separate statements, one I agree with; one I don’t. See how that works?

The same as you saying we want the same things. I think we do. You want the government to fix the problem and you don’t want to take any responsibility for it. I take total responsibility for it and don’t think there is much the government can do. My background is Manufacturing and Law Enforcement, what’s yours? Maybe that is the difference.

removing the onerous regulations that it has placed on businesses

Which ones?

[mav]

I don’ know what to do about that. I can type slower if you think that would help.

You're a funny guy.

The same as you saying we want the same things. I think we do. You want the government to fix the problem and you don’t want to take any responsibility for it. I take total responsibility for it and don’t think there is much the government can do. My background is Manufacturing and Law Enforcement, what’s yours? Maybe that is the difference.

First off, my background is manufacturing. I work as a chemist, and you ought to see how regulated that industry is. It is becoming more and more regulated every year. It is so bad that I read on Yahoo several months ago about how my job may eventually disappear in this country. Most of it will be overseas.

I don't know what you mean by I don't want to take any reponsibility for it. Take responsibility for what?

[Guest 270win]

What I hate to hear is the so called know it all people say that we do not have people here that have skills so they must export jobs or import people to do jobs because Americans are either 'too dumb' or 'unwilling' to do jobs. That is a lie. America is the greatest country on Earth.

How can little Johnny learn engineering or the other science related fields at SEC university when none of his teachers speak English well enough for little Johnny to even understand? But SEC University claims these professors are smart and qualified. How can your neighbor get a job in construction when the illegals are being paid under the table cash?

You try to call about your internet problems and you are routed to India. The customer service stinks and you can't understand the person halfway around the world.

15 million illegals and 15 million unemployed (recorded). Makes sense to me.

Military bases around the world to protect wealthy countries that can defend themselves. Government providing more and more than people used to take care of themselves.

This happened over a long period of time and now we've got to get ourselves out of this mess. Cut government big time from entitlements, social programs, agencies, military. Somehow either deport (which will never happen) or collect taxes from the illegals. Those that don't pay, try to deport them. Cut down on green cards. Work with companies that hire Americans. I don't care if it is Nissan, Toyota, GM, Smith Wesson, if you hire Americans help them out. Stop these bailouts and debt ceiling raises. If you fail go bankrupt.

[G27]

It's a fine line - many / most of the regulations in place are there to protect folks - were they not there, we'd have far greater impact on the people and environment. That drives up costs of domestically made products, but not nearly as much as the minimum wage does - labor is a major (often the greatest) expense in almost all manufacturing. We've artificially inflated the entire pay structure in this country via minimum wage - how on earth do you expect a manufacturer to compete when his labor costs are 4x (or more) the cost of a foreign manufacturer?

Protectionism is also a part of the solution - we in essence tell China, for example, 'fine, you want to send over widgets that cost less than we can produce them because your workers only make 1/4 of what ours do and you have no regulations regarding their safety, so we're charging you a 50% (75%, 100%, whatever) tax on every widget you export to us.' Suddenly US made products are competitively priced again and you get to choose between something made in the US and something made in China. And since we're now now trying to compete with impossible pricing, suddenly the Chinese (or us) have to step their game up in order to make a better product to attract the buyer's dollars.

It's not an easy answer, but demanding that we should be competitive in an impossible environment isn't the answer. Nor is blindly buying US products that are inferior just because they're made in the US. We have to be able to compete domestically and regain the reputation for building the BEST products, and then we'll be fine.

[mav]

It's a fine line - many / most of the regulations in place are there to protect folks - were they not there, we'd have far greater impact on the people and environment. That drives up costs of domestically made products, but not nearly as much as the minimum wage does - labor is a major (often the greatest) expense in almost all manufacturing. We've artificially inflated the entire pay structure in this country via minimum wage - how on earth do you expect a manufacturer to compete when his labor costs are 4x (or more) the cost of a foreign manufacturer?

Protectionism is also a part of the solution - we in essence tell China, for example, 'fine, you want to send over widgets that cost less than we can produce them because your workers only make 1/4 of what ours do and you have no regulations regarding their safety, so we're charging you a 50% (75%, 100%, whatever) tax on every widget you export to us.' Suddenly US made products are competitively priced again and you get to choose between something made in the US and something made in China. And since we're now now trying to compete with impossible pricing, suddenly the Chinese (or us) have to step their game up in order to make a better product to attract the buyer's dollars.

It's not an easy answer, but demanding that we should be competitive in an impossible environment isn't the answer. Nor is blindly buying US products that are inferior just because they're made in the US. We have to be able to compete domestically and regain the reputation for building the BEST products, and then we'll be fine.

That was coherent and I agree for the most part. I understand what you are saying, but Iam still iffy on the protectionism. I will have to think about it more.

[DaveTN]

It's a fine line - many / most of the regulations in place are there to protect folks - were they not there, we'd have far greater impact on the people and environment. That drives up costs of domestically made products, but not nearly as much as the minimum wage does - labor is a major (often the greatest) expense in almost all manufacturing. We've artificially inflated the entire pay structure in this country via minimum wage - how on earth do you expect a manufacturer to compete when his labor costs are 4x (or more) the cost of a foreign manufacturer?

Protectionism is also a part of the solution - we in essence tell China, for example, 'fine, you want to send over widgets that cost less than we can produce them because your workers only make 1/4 of what ours do and you have no regulations regarding their safety, so we're charging you a 50% (75%, 100%, whatever) tax on every widget you export to us.' Suddenly US made products are competitively priced again and you get to choose between something made in the US and something made in China. And since we're now now trying to compete with impossible pricing, suddenly the Chinese (or us) have to step their game up in order to make a better product to attract the buyer's dollars.

It's not an easy answer, but demanding that we should be competitive in an impossible environment isn't the answer. Nor is blindly buying US products that are inferior just because they're made in the US. We have to be able to compete domestically and regain the reputation for building the BEST products, and then we'll be fine.

The Chinese are building new homes at a record pace. The leaders and upper class in their country are enjoying a lifestyle they have never seen before. They are doing it because of the jobs lost by American workers. Even by so called “American Company’s†that are building plants in China to take advantage of the cheap labor.

I don’t think our government placing a “tax†on imported goods will help anything (except to give our government more money to squander). It could cause some serious problems. The Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor over an oil embargo.

The American people need to try to buy products that are produced here by American skilled trades and labor; not simply imported and bolted together here.

American manufacturers cannot compete with foreign manufactures on price…. Period. Not when they are bound by the rules and regulations of doing business in this country.

[Worriedman]

Protectionism is also a part of the solution - we in essence tell China, for example, 'fine, you want to send over widgets that cost less than we can produce them because your workers only make 1/4 of what ours do and you have no regulations regarding their safety, so we're charging you a 50% (75%, 100%, whatever) tax on every widget you export to us.' Suddenly US made products are competitively priced again and you get to choose between something made in the US and something made in China. And since we're now now trying to compete with impossible pricing, suddenly the Chinese (or us) have to step their game up in order to make a better product to attract the buyer's dollars.

Been tried before, Smoot–Hawley Tariff Act passed in 1930, did not work then, will not work now. We raise tarrifs on imports from China, they call our notes, or more likely just don't buy any more of our debt.

Edited August 7, 2011 by Worriedman

[mav]

When you buy your guns, cars, etc., from countries that don’t have to deal with OSHA, the EPA, EEOC, lawsuits, etc.; you are turning your back on your country.

Guys, I made mistake. I was preoccupied while thinking about a previous post that as I was skimming through this post and I misread the above passage. The words "you are turning your back on your country" is what really stood out to me. I got pissed and took it personally. While I do not agree with some parts of the arguments being made, I was wrong to take it personally, and I apologize for becoming antagonistic. It was totally my fault.

BTW, I don't blame the government solely for this mess. There are a bunch of crooked crony-capitalists that are equally to blame.

[G27]

I don’t think our government placing a “tax†on imported goods will help anything (except to give our government more money to squander). It could cause some serious problems. The Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor over an oil embargo.

Then we may as well give up, because:

The American people need to try to buy products that are produced here by American skilled trades and labor; not simply imported and bolted together here.

isn't gonna happen. Not as long as the cheap Chinese crap isn't massively inferior (few products - US made or Chinese - are made to a high standard any more).

I'll happily pay more for a superior American made product, but buying stuff that's made like crap just because it's 'made in the USA' doesn't do anything but encourage complacency. America lost it's manufacturing edge because we couldn't compete price-wise and we stopped building superior products (generally speaking).

It's not just a consumer problem.