Wilson County fairgrounds

[Bprater]

I will be attending the duck blind drawing this weekend at the Wilson County fairgrounds/Ag Center. Any idea if it is legal to carry here?

[Fallguy]

It was reported a couple of years ago by someone that they thought Wilson Co allowed carry (see here)

Maybe someone who has been there recently can report for sure though.

[Guest drv2fst]

There will be about half a million people at the Wilson County Fair in less than to weeks. It would be nice to know if CC is allowed at this time or not. Can anyone local chime in on this issue?

[Guest BungieCord]

My guess is the Lebanon PD will know.

615.444.2323

[Fallguy]

The trouble with calling any place though is 99% of the time you are told carry is not allowed whether it is lawfully posted or not.

[Guest biohazardmatthew]

Wilson County Fairgrounds Media/Public Relations: Craig Browning pio@wilsoncountyfair.net

Wilson County Fairgrounds President: Hale Moss hale@wilsoncountyfair.net

Phone: 615-443-2626

[Hershmeister]

I've never seen a sign.

[Bprater]

I called Larry Tomlinson who is listed as the contact on Wilson County's website for the Ward Ag Center. Mr. Tomlinson said that "the fairgrounds and the ag center were designated a park and that hand gun carry was not allowed." He said that "if someone were to see you with a hand gun you would be asked to leave but you would be fine leaving it in your vehicle once you drove onto the property." Did Lebanon opt out? Below is a post I found yesterday from 7-13-09. Who do you contact to find out this info and know that they know what they are talking about?

Name:

ALL CITY PARKS

City:

Lebanon

Results of Vote:

No vote but see below. (Looks like carry will be allowed)

From

The Lebanon Democrat.

GUNS IN PARKSBy: By J.R. LIND

Posted: Sunday, July 12, 2009 12:03 am

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Despite some mumblings, it appears unlikely Lebanon will opt out of the recently-passed guns-in-parks law.

The law, which allows handgun-carry permit holders to have their weapons in city parks, passed the state legislature late in this year's session. The law includes a provision allowing city councils to "opt-out," effectively banning weapons in parks under their control.

During a handful of recent Lebanon City Council meetings and work sessions, Councilor Kevin Huddleston obliquely indicated he would be asking City Attorney Andy Wright to draft the opt-out ordinance.

Friday, Huddleston said he will not pursue that move.

"I thought abouut it but i'm not going to. I have had some people in my ward and some family members that said i shouldn't do that," he said.

Huddleston said safety concerns were first on people's minds as they argued against the ban. He said it's the same reason he wants to keep the attendant at Don Fox Park in the budget. That job is one of more than two dozen city jobs that appear to be victims of budget cuts. City Recreation Director William Porter said he can save the job if he's allowed to move money from other lines in his budget allocated for part-time workers and overtime.

During the brief moments in which guns-in-parks came up, Councilor Kathy Warmath expressed that she would not vote for the ban.

"I'm totally against that. I don't carry one myself. I believe everyone has a right to protect themselves. Law enforcement can't be everywhere. If you are in danger and you are a responsible person, you should be able to carry them anywhere," she said Friday.

Wright said no member of the council has indicated they would like him to draft the opt-out ordinance.

The state law goes into effect Sept. 1 and cities must act before that date to opt out. City councils in Murfreesboro and Clarksville voted to opt out Thursday. Nearly 50 city and county governments statewide have opted out to date.

Staff Writer J.R. Lind can be reached at 444-3952 ext. 16 or by e-mail at

jr.lind@lebanondemocrat.com

[Bprater]

Ok, so i decided to do research at work instead of work so I signed up on The Lebanon Democrat and did a search there. Below are the two articles I found. I guess I could have done this yesterday. It looks to me like while the county did not opt out, the city of Lebanon did.

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County OKs 'guns in parks'[/TD]

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[TD]By: By J.R. LIND

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[TD]Posted: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 12:01 am

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[TD]Licensed handgun-carry permit holders will be able to pack heat at the fairgrounds.

The Wilson County Commission voted 15-8 against a resolution that would have opted the county out of the state's so-called "guns in parks" law.

After a long, winding discussion that hit on topics ranging from the definition of the word "park" and if the county fairgrounds meets that definition to how much power the county had over a handful of boat ramps leased from Army to a recently-decided Supreme Court Case, the commission turned down the resolution introduced by Commissioner Bob Neal.

There was a great deal of discussion – and confusion – about exactly what the county could do.

County Attorney Mike Jennings said since the law allowing permit holders to carry in parks – whatever a park is – doesn't go into effect until Sept. 1, there's very little case law to go on.

"The law doesn't speak to opting out one area and leaving others in. We are talking about a law that isn't in effect yet. But if somebody gets hurt by a negligent act of a gun going off, we are going to get sued. If you opt out, it gives me a defense if somebody gets hurt," he said.

Commissioner Jeff Joines pointed out that there are a variety of school activities at the fairgrounds and that the state's attorney-general has opined that if a school activity is taking place, guns are banned under a federal statute.

"I think this state's in a sad state of affairs if this is the best thing that came out of it this year," Joines said.

The biggest obstacle to opting out seemed to be that the opt-out would leave "thugs" still armed, an issue raised by Commissioner Bernie Ash – "If we had a way to keep thugs and criminals from carrying guns, I'm all for it" – and Commissioner Gary Tarpley – "The dope dealers and thugs are carrying [guns]."

A resolution to opt the James E. Ward Agricultural Center out of the law, while allowing permit holders to carry at the boat ramps was substituted for the more general original resolution, but nevertheless, did not garner enough support for passage.

In Wilson County, only Watertown has opted out of the guns-in-parks law. The opt-out resolution was voted down by Mt. Juliet's City Commission. The Lebanon City Council will consider the opt out tonight.

Staff Writer J.R. Lind can be reached at 444-3952 ext. 16 or by e-mail at jr.lind@lebanondemocrat.com

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[TD=class: page_title]No guns in Lebanon's parks[/TD]

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[TD]By: By J.R. LIND

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[TD]Posted: Thursday, August 20, 2009 12:01 am

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[TD]Guns are now banned in Lebanon city parks.

The Lebanon City Council voted 4-2 at the end of a two-hour meeting Tuesday to opt out of a state law permitting handgun-carry permit holders to pack heat in local parks. Councilors Alex Buhler, Kevin Huddleston, Joe Hayes and Haywood Barry voted to opt out. Councilors William Farmer and Kathy Warmath voted no.

Barry, he himself a permit holder, said he introduced the resolution because he felt it deserved a fair hearing before the Sept. 1 deadline.

"I honestly don't believe handgun-carry permittees are going to shoot up kids," he said, but noted that the state attorney-general issued an opinion saying an older law, prohibiting guns at school events, superseded the current law, noting that a number of local schools use city parks for athletic and other extracurricular activities.

During the debate, Farmer asked Public Safety Commissioner Billy Weeks if the prohibition could even be enforced.

"No," Weeks said. "I'm not worried about the guns I can see, I'm worried about the ones I can't see."

Farmer, who also identified himself as a permit holder, said the resolution was little more than a feel-good move.

"I think this is nice, but I don't think it means anything, except posting signs we have to pay for," he said.

Warmath said the resolution was too broadly worded, extending the prohibition to "nature areas" and "waterways," potentially putting every piece of city property under the provence of the law.

"This is a distorted resolution and it puts covers every inch of this city. If I were in that park and someone attacked me and someone had a gun, I'd hope they'd protect me. What about my right not to die? If I need help and you've got a gun and you're a permit holder, by God, please help me," she said, her voice shaky with emotion at times.

During the public comment period, citizens were split evenly for and against the opt out.

Jim Dunn said with some cities opting out – Lebanon joined Watertown in doing so – and other governments not – both the county and Mt. Juliet rejected opt out plans – it's becoming increasingly confusing to permit holders.

"You almost need a GPS in your car to get from one place to another. You could buy groceries in Lebanon and have to go to Mt. Juliet to eat them in the park," he said.

Dwayne Harper said much of the opposition to allowing the guns is based on unfounded fear.

"There's not going to be mass killings at the playground and no one is going to shoot an umpire if he makes a bad call," he said.

On the other side, Charles Morgan – a self-described "gunman" – said he didn't know why people needed to carry handguns.

"I've used guns all my life, but I don't pack handguns anywhere. Sixty-five years I've walked the face of the earth, I've never felt the need to carry handguns. Why all of a sudden do we feel the need to carry handguns everywhere?" he said,

Bob O'Brien said to him, it was all about guns around children.

"There are not guns in schools because of the children. They should be allowed in Don Fox Park because of the children. ... I'm not talking about the elimination of guns. ... I'm talking about where children are present," he said.

Mayor Philip Craighead said he would not veto the resolution.

Staff Writer J.R. Lind can be reached at 444-3952 ext. 16 or by e-mail at jr.lind@lebanondemocrat.com

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[Guest biohazardmatthew]

So the answer is YES you can carry at Wilson County Fair. Because it is a county park not city park...

[Bprater]

Even though it is in the city of Lebanon? This is where this gets confusing to me.

[RobertNashville]

Park or not, who opted out or not, wouldn't they still have to post for the policy to have the force of law???

[Fallguy]

Even though it is in the city of Lebanon? This is where this gets confusing to me.

It is whoever controls the park, not necessarily where it is located. In some cases it could be more than one local government.

[Fallguy]

Park or not, who opted out or not, wouldn't they still have to post for the policy to have the force of law???

When it comes to parks, the law 39-17-1311 says the must post. However the AG has issued an opinion that someone could be charged even if signs aren't posted.

[RobertNashville]

When it comes to parks, the law 39-17-1311 says the must post. However the AG has issued an opinion that someone could be charged even if signs aren't posted.

Humm...I may have to look up that opinion; seems pretty clear to me that everybody has to post if they want a "no firearms policy" to have legal meaning.

I understand that any property owner (or a legitimate representative) can ask you to leave, etc but I thought the law was pretty clear that if there is not proper signage then there is no violation of the law.

I realize we are talking about the "law" here and not common sense but I can't help but wonder how the average Joe Citizen is supposed to know the park's/city's policy if there is no signage to tell them of their policy? Do they expect every potential visitor to call the city's officers to find out before they dare step foot in the park?

Maybe we need a new AG???

[Fallguy]

Humm...I may have to look up that opinion; seems pretty clear to me that everybody has to post if they want a "no firearms policy" to have legal meaning.

I understand that any property owner (or a legitimate representative) can ask you to leave, etc but I thought the law was pretty clear that if there is not proper signage then there is no violation of the law.

Maybe we need a new AG???

Posting for parks is covered under a different law (39-17-1311) than posting for other places (39-17-1359)

The trouble is, parks are still illegal in general, it is just an exception if you have a HCP. His opinion is based on a conviction of a person at a school even though the school didn't have the signs required by the law that makes school off-limits.

The wild thing is...the park law 39-17-1311 actually still requires ALL parks to post, even if they haven't opted out...but they can opt out of having to post, unless they opted out on allowing carry, then the must post, but apparently you can be charged even if there aren't signs....... So I still stand by that 39-17-1311 just needs to be repealed like 39-17-1305

....and YES, we need a new AG

Edited August 4, 2011 by Fallguy

[Guest 270win]

If you don't see anything making it illegal when you get there, keep your gun concealed. Don't ask, don't tell. Asking questions will get you a no answer most of the time even though something is legal. Most people don't want you carrying, especially these government types, so they'll give you a no answer. Best to stay low key and conceal and don't let people know.

[Bprater]

So the way I am understanding this, in a nutshell, is that the fairground property, which is in Lebanon, is owned and operated by the county. Lebanon opted out but Wilson county did not. So, since the property is county owned, it is legal to carry here unless I find that it is posted. However if it were not posted, I could be charged based on the AG's opinion. Does that sound accurate? It could be that the person I talked to at the Ag center was under the assumption that since the city of Lebanon opted out, it included the fairgrounds.

[Fallguy]

So the way I am understanding this, in a nutshell, is that the fairground property, which is in Lebanon, is owned and operated by the county. Lebanon opted out but Wilson county did not. So, since the property is county owned, it is legal to carry here unless I find that it is posted. However if it were not posted, I could be charged based on the AG's opinion. Does that sound accurate? It could be that the person I talked to at the Ag center was under the assumption that since the city of Lebanon opted out, it included the fairgrounds.

Sounds like you have it down about as well as can be....

[Bprater]

Thanks for the input. Ill find out tomorrow if it is posted or not and ill post a reply.

[Bprater]

SO we got to the fairgrounds today and were looking for a sign as we entered. Saw nothing. I kept my eyes open the entire time we drove through the complex until we reached the area where the drawing was held. I left my gun on my side, under my shirt and went about the drawing as normal. The road we came in on was a two lane road divided by a median with trees. Come to find out, there was a sign on the exit side of that road that stated no firearms except LEO's. It would have been nice, if they had wanted someone to see this sign, if they had posted it on the entrance side of the road. Luckily I ran into no trouble while I was there. On the positive side, I did get drawn and I have a place to duck hunt this year.

[RobertNashville]

Interesting place to put their sign...a good conspiracy theorist could think of a couple of reasons why they would put one there!

[JayC]

I'd be curious who put that sign up... It seems unless Wilson County voted to ban the park, it can't be posted by anybody else.

SO we got to the fairgrounds today and were looking for a sign as we entered. Saw nothing. I kept my eyes open the entire time we drove through the complex until we reached the area where the drawing was held. I left my gun on my side, under my shirt and went about the drawing as normal. The road we came in on was a two lane road divided by a median with trees. Come to find out, there was a sign on the exit side of that road that stated no firearms except LEO's. It would have been nice, if they had wanted someone to see this sign, if they had posted it on the entrance side of the road. Luckily I ran into no trouble while I was there. On the positive side, I did get drawn and I have a place to duck hunt this year.

[Bprater]

I was talking to my dad about this and he was thinking this could be an old sign. There is no gunbuster sign. Only a sign with rules and regulations for the fairgrounds.

[willis68]

If anyone could find out for sure the stance on this, I would greatly appreciate it as I plan on taking my family when the Fair opens