entitlement

[mav]

We are entitled!

Free cell phones are now a civil right

I heard about that the other day. It is like rubbing salt in an open wound.

I have a question for you guys.

When our country collapses due to profligate spending, do you think it will quietly go away and reset, or do you think there will be mass hysteria, rampant crime, etc... (a self implosion on a biblical scale)?

[Guest 6.8 AR]

The latter, mav. Too much was plundered by too many people for this mess to go away

quietly.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

If it falls apart quick am guessing worse than Katrina nation-wide with little or none effective natl guard martial law.

Perhaps followed by UN peace keepers and humanitarian aid, though the rest of the world may not be in good enough shape to worry about us. They will have their own problems to worry about. Occupying the USA would be Iraq times a million. Maybe no nation would be that masochistic.

If it falls apart gradually, then maybe the damage would be surmountable and in the end it could turn out not bad. Slow dissolution may give people time to get used to a "new normal" and adapt.

If for a few months the power flickers more often. Then for a few months there are occasional hour outages. Then occasional daily outages. At some point people will figure out how to deal with it, one way or t'other. Whatever they can afford to do.

If the gov check schedule gradually becomes increasingly more erratic. Or if the benefit amounts are gradually trimmed. Or the inflation gradually grows and the check amounts do not grow. Most folks would eventually adapt as good as possible.

Even the most resourceful independent people would have more trouble than they might expect. It is wrong to generalize, but po folks are often poor because they are not especially competent. I can't say why they are thataway but they tend to be a rather doofus bunch. From my experience it is near impossible to cure doofus. It ain't a moral problem or whatever. Some folks are just not very resourceful even if they pledge allegiance to the flag, vote republican and go to church every sunday.

But just because they are deficient in coping skills, doesn't mean they have no coping skills at all. Most would solve some of their problems as best possible, in absence of help.

I'm libertarian but think we must provide at least a little bit of a safety net just to keep the wheels from falling off. Maybe not as big as the current safety net, but without a safety net too many people will vote commie and ruin it for everybody. People don't starve peacefully.

From reading some of the previous SHTF threads, a lot of our "independent resourceful survivalists" seem to think that if they get hungry then they have the right to take anything they need from anyone too weak to defend it. If push comes to shove, a lot of "conservatives" seem to have the same "if I want it I will take it" attitude which is commonly attributed to "the lower classes".

[Guest nicemac]

Or a person who bought the new car right before being laid-off, or getting cancer. There are all kinds of situations. Though fraud and abuse certainly does happen, one can't just assume that each case is fraud and abuse.

In my experience, when it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is usually, well… a duck.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Or a person who bought the new car right before being laid-off, or getting cancer. There are all kinds of situations. Though fraud and abuse certainly does happen, one can't just assume that each case is fraud and abuse.

In my experience, when it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is usually, well… a duck.

Hi nicemac.

Never can tell. What kind of duck? Mallard, teal, or pintail?

Long ago when I was doing social work there was this little widow with four kids. Drive way out east brainerd road, park on the side of the road, walk a log over a deep gully and a couple hundred yards up in the woods to a 2 room cabin with no electric. Wood stove, kerosene lamps and outhouse. Yuppie suburban housing complexes close by. A situation would have more expected way out in the county.

Lucked out on that lady because she was religious and theologically compatible with Tennessee Temple. Got her hooked up with those folks and they took care of her great. They fixed the place up, clothes for her and the kids, installed electric and phone, etc. They picked her up in the church bus every Wednesday and Sunday for services.

If one of the church members had happened to take her shopping in his cadillac then you would have seen a nicely dressed but plain looking lady pay with food stamps and ride off in a caddy.

[Guest nicemac]

There is always an exception. Most cases that appear to be fraud, are.

[JC57]

Really, this is so simple. Let old people die. Quit investing in medicines and health care for the elderly. If everyone over 65 died tomorrow all of the problems would be eliminated - social security and medicare bills would drop to zero, all of their private wealth would pass to the next generation which would act as a massive stimulus package, and the inheritance tax skimmed off the top would replenish the government coffers.

Housing market would probably suffer because that's a lot fewer people who need houses, and a ton of empty houses on the market all at once. But hey, housing prices would drop way down so that all of the people who got foreclosed before could buy at like 1955 prices.

It's a big sacrifice, of course, but it's for the good of the country. So come on, grandpa, quit taking those meds and skip your doctor's visits, make way for the next generations!

[Jonnin]

That is true. Have never been fond of debt but for several years me & wife have been getting ready. We are about done. Wonder if there is a name for this? If there is no name, I nominate "The 55 year old scramble."

Still need to put a new roof on the house. Probably this fall. Was planning this spring but been too busy to mess with it.

Got a vehicle last year to replace the 17 year old truck. The old one was in decent shape but not likely to last forever. The salesman did a double take when I said, "I'm looking for a truck to last until I croak."

Even paid-off houses are not free. Looks like property tax and insurance will take almost two months of SS checks. Assuming that there are SS checks by then.

I know some places stop charging the elderly property tax, or greatly reduce it, GA does something but I forget the age and the details. No clue what TN does. My mom's SS checks are less than 10% of her total monthly income from retirement and so forth (she does not work). Its a joke, she puts the SS checks in to a college fund for her grandkids (my sister's kids).

[Guest TresOsos]

Really, this is so simple. Let old people die. Quit investing in medicines and health care for the elderly. If everyone over 65 died tomorrow all of the problems would be eliminated - social security and medicare bills would drop to zero, all of their private wealth would pass to the next generation which would act as a massive stimulus package, and the inheritance tax skimmed off the top would replenish the government coffers.

Housing market would probably suffer because that's a lot fewer people who need houses, and a ton of empty houses on the market all at once. But hey, housing prices would drop way down so that all of the people who got foreclosed before could buy at like 1955 prices.

It's a big sacrifice, of course, but it's for the good of the country. So come on, grandpa, quit taking those meds and skip your doctor's visits, make way for the next generations!

They are going to do that, its called Obamacare and coming to place near you very soon.

See you'll have something to look forward too as you slave your butt off to pay for it.

Won't growing older be grand.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

We are entitled!

Free cell phones are now a civil right

Ain't sayin it is right or wrong but this doesn't seem new.

Back when I was doing social work in the early 1970's, every public assistance recipient was required to have a telephone. This may have added a "luxurious convenience" for the recipient, but the telephone requirement was entirely for the benefit and convenience of the Human Services dept.

If we needed to contact a recipient then we didn't want it to take weeks of correspondence or numerous wasted home visits if the client didn't happen to be home when a worker showed up to talk to them.

IIRC ma bell had a 'discount rate' for welfare phones, and the phone bill came out of the recipients checks (paid by recipient). But every welfare client was a guaranteed small income for ma bell.

Nowadays lots of youngsters don't even have phone lines because it is cheaper and kills two birds with one stone to just have a cellphone. Developing countries are expanding fast with cellphones because it is cheaper and better than stringing thousands of miles phone wire.

It may be that economics have got to the point that it is cheaper to have welfare cellphones rather than welfare landlines, and an added advantage would be that ma bell would not get every bit of the monopoly biz. The honey would get spread around somewhat.

Not saying it is a good or bad thing. But today the human services workers probably need every client to have a phone, for the same reasons we did many years ago. Clients with cellphones would probably be better because it takes a worker's time to repeat call when nobody is home. If the client usually has the phone with em, then it would save time on re-calls.

[Oh Shoot]

Ain't sayin it is right or wrong but this doesn't seem new....

(re welfare cellphone)

I've received two or three mailings with application for the freebie cellphone/service. Have numerous rent assisted tenants in complex, so I guess they target the mailings as per that. That or everyone getting SS?

- OS

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Really, this is so simple. Let old people die. Quit investing in medicines and health care for the elderly. If everyone over 65 died tomorrow all of the problems would be eliminated - social security and medicare bills would drop to zero, all of their private wealth would pass to the next generation which would act as a massive stimulus package, and the inheritance tax skimmed off the top would replenish the government coffers.

Housing market would probably suffer because that's a lot fewer people who need houses, and a ton of empty houses on the market all at once. But hey, housing prices would drop way down so that all of the people who got foreclosed before could buy at like 1955 prices.

It's a big sacrifice, of course, but it's for the good of the country. So come on, grandpa, quit taking those meds and skip your doctor's visits, make way for the next generations!

I feel better already. It's probably what will happen.

[Guest nicemac]

I would like every person that gets a "free" cellphone to name the producer whose money should be confiscated to "give" the phone to them and explain why they are more entitled to that money than the person who EARNED it.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

I know some places stop charging the elderly property tax, or greatly reduce it, GA does something but I forget the age and the details. No clue what TN does. My mom's SS checks are less than 10% of her total monthly income from retirement and so forth (she does not work). Its a joke, she puts the SS checks in to a college fund for her grandkids (my sister's kids).

Hi Jonnin

Think I recall a referendum item on the ballot a couple of years ago. Can't recall if it was for TN or Hamilton County. IIRC, it was asking for voter approval for POSSIBLY the property taxes made easier for geezers sometime in the future, rather than any immediate action. May be recalling it wrong.

If they give seniors a break on property tax it will cause additional complaints about parasite geezers sucking all the wealth out of the virtuous young.

It would also hinder urban renewal via kicking destitute seniors out of potentially valuable property. Which works fabulously when combined with new minimum housing requirements, forcing seniors to either make unaffordable repairs/upgrades or sell at a loss. Ala the North Chatt yuppie colonization of the Corker years.

Sounds like yer mom is set (unless her SS check is tiny). Nice to have principle that yields income anywhere near 9X the typical SS benefit.

Really, this is so simple. Let old people die. Quit investing in medicines and health care for the elderly. If everyone over 65 died tomorrow all of the problems would be eliminated - social security and medicare bills would drop to zero, all of their private wealth would pass to the next generation which would act as a massive stimulus package, and the inheritance tax skimmed off the top would replenish the government coffers.

Yep. Soylent green ain't quite as tasty as souse or spam but ought to make decent pet food. The fat ones would be good for bio-deisel.

(re welfare cellphone)

I've received two or three mailings with application for the freebie cellphone/service. Have numerous rent assisted tenants in complex, so I guess they target the mailings as per that. That or everyone getting SS?

- OS

Hi OS

Dunno. As you say, perhaps targeted at vicinity or recipients of various programs. I don't recall such mailings but mail that doesn't resemble a bill usually feeds the shredder without examination.

[Guest nicemac]

If they give seniors a break on property tax it will cause additional complaints about parasite geezers sucking all the wealth out of the virtuous young.

You better believe it. Automatic exemption of seniors would be a huge shift of taxes to younger people. Seniors (as a group) have significantly more wealth than younger people (as a group). What would be the justification for relieving them of property taxes?

EVERYONE that owns property should pay property taxes.

Edited August 4, 2011 by nicemac

[Guest Lester Weevils]

You better believe it. Automatic exemption of seniors would be a huge shift of taxes to younger people. Seniors (as a group) have significantly more wealth than younger people (as a group). What would be the justification for relieving them of property taxes?

EVERYONE that owns property should pay property taxes.

Hi nicemac

I don't have a firm opinion on it.

One possible justification-- Ain't 45 years of property tax enough? It is the same argument that wealthy people make-- Ain't 50 percent tax enough? How much do you want? 80 percent? 90 percent?

See, a sales tax is a tax on a transaction. If you don't buy anything you don't have to pay the tax. If you don't have any income you don't have to pay income tax. If you don't drive a car on the public roads then you don't have to pay vehicle tax.

But a property tax is a wealth tax. Just because you own the property you have to pay the tax. It would be equivalent to a general asset tax-- Whatever is in your bank account at the end of the year, send the gov 5 percent. Whatever is in your stock portfolio at the end of the year, send the gov 5 percent. Property tax is a distinctly different kind of tax compared to income tax, sales tax, or usage fees. If the gov collected the same as property tax on bank accounts and stock portfolios then people would scream bloody murder.

Another option would be to means-test property tax. With the objective of collecting property tax from evil rich geezers, while not kicking destitute grannies in wheelchairs out on the street.

The problem with means-testing is that you have to hire more gov bureaucrats to push papers. Which would grow gov and may be more expensive than just giving every senior the break. Assuming it is decided worthy to give any senior a break on anything.

That was one of the issues that got me out of the social work biz years ago. Well, the pay is low and it is incredibly depressing, but occasionally you can accidentally do something good.

But the main thing is that there are armies of social workers and benefits workers and dept supervisors and county supervisors and state supervisors and federal administrators and bean counters sucking the gov teat. Most of em ain't getting rich, but it adds up to a sizeable percentage of the "helping" when the main real help is the check.

Believe it or not, some deserving people really are helped by the money. My pay was considerably below median income but I was being paid 50X the average AFDC benefit of the time. The AFDC benefit was rather low.

Would need some social workers to handle abuse, neglect and emergency services. But the po folks that will get better would generally get better without the counselling of a social worker.

Maybe it will eventually be politically feasible to establish a dog-eat-dog libertarian utopia, but as long as the majority want some kind of social safety net, then ideally we would want to do the most good using the least money.

Libertarian hero Milton Friedman espoused the Negative Income Tax. Completely abolish all social helping programs and fire all the bureaucrats except those necessary for abuse, neglect, child adoptions, etc. Replace it all with the Negative Income Tax.

Strangely enough, it came close to passing during the Nixon era.

Friedman's ideas are not the lone ranger. For instance the Fair Tax has a component similar to the negative income tax concept.

Negative income tax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Guest nicemac]

RE:"One possible justification-- Ain't 45 years of property tax enough? "

No, not if you still own the property and your neighbor has to pay extra to make up for you NOT paying anything.

RE:"It is the same argument that wealthy people make-- Ain't 50 percent tax enough? How much do you want? "

No, it isn't. They argue that THEY pay 50% while the guy down the street pays NOTHING.

Again, tell me who should have money taken from them (at the point of a gun) to make up for the property tax that the senior down the street no longer has to pay?

Means testing is not the answer. Make a fair tax rate, not a progressive rate, and everybody pays it. You pay more if your property is worth more, you pay less if your property is worth less. The wealthy pay more than the poor guy down the street, but the percentage should be the same.

If there is a property tax on anyone that owns property, there must be a property tax on everyone that owns property. ANYTHING less is socialism. My neighbor is not entitled to the money I earn, regardless of his age.

Edited August 4, 2011 by nicemac

[G27]

Still not sure why anyone thinks stealing from me to give to someone else is somehow noble or right. I don't care about what they 'need', it's not the government's place to forcibly take what I earned in order to give it to someone who didn't.

[Guest nicemac]

Still not sure why anyone thinks stealing from me to give to someone else is somehow noble or right. I don't care about what they 'need', it's not the government's place to forcibly take what I earned in order to give it to someone who didn't.

Perfectly stated.

[Guest skinner]

In England, you have to own property in order to be able to vote. I sometimes wonder what things would look like in the U.S. if that were the case here.

[enfield]

In England, you have to own property in order to be able to vote. I sometimes wonder what things would look like in the U.S. if that were the case here.

Works for me . . . .

[Garufa]

In England, you have to own property in order to be able to vote. I sometimes wonder what things would look like in the U.S. if that were the case here.

That's the way is was here until the 1850's.

[G27]

Some people choose to rent, I have no problem with that and they shouldn't be excluded based on that decision.

Since we pay federal income taxes now (unlike in the 1850's), what it should be is this - if you want to vote in federal elections, you must pay federal income taxes. No federal income taxes = no vote.

IMO, the country would be in far better shape if the freeloaders had no say in the elections - nearly half this country pays ZERO federal income taxes yet they have the right to vote on how MY tax dollars are spent for their benefit...

[Links2k]

Some people choose to rent, I have no problem with that and they shouldn't be excluded based on that decision.

Since we pay federal income taxes now (unlike in the 1850's), what it should be is this - if you want to vote in federal elections, you must pay federal income taxes. No federal income taxes = no vote.

IMO, the country would be in far better shape if the freeloaders had no say in the elections - nearly half this country pays ZERO federal income taxes yet they have the right to vote on how MY tax dollars are spent for their benefit...

I find it hard to believe that these people would even vote. If you don't care enough to support yourself I don't think that you would care enough to vote.

[Guest nicemac]

They vote so they can keep getting fed on the government teat.