need help rewording an employee manual

[Guest marauder]

i've posted this on other forums, but i'm posting it here as well for maximum exposure. text below.

a church that i represent allowed me to bring up possibly changing the wording in the employee manual because of an incident that happened. currently it is the typical language that bans all weapons etc from the entire property (employees only), i suggested that we look into rewording it to provide protection for the employees that have HCPs to be able to leave their firearms locked in their car while at work. i'll provide the current language in the manual and am asking for some sugestions on what to replace that language with.

there are some reservations from some of the other staff about making sure the employees aren't carrying their firearms in the building so we have to make the language reflect that.

another thing to consider is there is also a day care that is located in a portion of this building, it's technically a seperate business and this manual wouldn't affect the daycare's employees but the daycare does share some of the same space with the church so i'm not sure if there is a prohibition from carrying lawful firearms in or near a daycare so that may be an issue.

here is the current statement in the employee manual that i'm looking to reword.

"Firearms of any type are not permitted in the parking lot or any of the church buildings."

another thing to consider is that they do not post the property so members are still able to carry to church on sunday, only the employees are prohibited from doing so.

thanks

[Jonnin]

I like how our company manual reads. It says no unauthorized weapons are allowed. So the HCP holder quietly speaks to the boss, gets permission, and all is well, no one else needs to know anything about it, yet it reads like an outright ban which keeps the sheep happy. Otherwise, you may need something stronger such as "employees may not have firearms inside the buildings at any time". But I would try to get that permission clause in there, which can be used in many ways from allowing the pastor and or a couple of deacons or whatever to carry in a "security guard" type concept all the way to allowing anyone with a HCP or the other extreme of allowing no one at all.

[Guest nicemac]

Aren't staff (employees) usually members of the church as well?

If I read (between the lines) the proposed policy correctly, any member except staff will be able to carry with a valid HCP?

Why?

[Jonnin]

Aren't staff (employees) usually members of the church as well?If I read (between the lines) the proposed policy correctly, any member except staff will be able to carry with a valid HCP?Why?

This is common. Take any retail store, they very likely have a no guns policy for their employees yet allow in armed HCP holders. Walmart, for example. The reason? Some manager somewhere is afraid of postal syndrone, where he fires or disciplines an employee and that person becomes irrational and kills him. Or they fear the lawsuits that will come (WILL, not may) when some employee blows away a thug that is robbing the place. Or 1000 other scenarios that lead to lawsuits. Combine that with the fear of the uninformed or the hatred of the anti-gunners, and it adds up to stupid policy.

[Fallguy]

Perhaps just adding an exception like in many state laws.

Something like... "This policy does not apply to handguns stored out of sight in a locked vehicle by employees with a valid TN Handgun Carry Permit."

[Guest marauder]

Aren't staff (employees) usually members of the church as well?

If I read (between the lines) the proposed policy correctly, any member except staff will be able to carry with a valid HCP?

Why?

This is common. Take any retail store, they very likely have a no guns policy for their employees yet allow in armed HCP holders. Walmart, for example. The reason? Some manager somewhere is afraid of postal syndrone, where he fires or disciplines an employee and that person becomes irrational and kills him. Or they fear the lawsuits that will come (WILL, not may) when some employee blows away a thug that is robbing the place. Or 1000 other scenarios that lead to lawsuits. Combine that with the fear of the uninformed or the hatred of the anti-gunners, and it adds up to stupid policy.

yes mac you are correct, and jonnin pretty much has the reasoning nailed. i would not have realistically been able to put this small revision through had the incident (i must keep it confidential) happened. so far there are a couple of pretty good suggestions, coupled with others from other sites. i've still got some time before the next meeting so i'll welcome more suggestions as people want to give them.

thanks

[Guest nicemac]

This is common. Take any retail store, they very likely have a no guns policy for their employees yet allow in armed HCP holders. Walmart, for example. The reason? Some manager somewhere is afraid of postal syndrone, where he fires or disciplines an employee and that person becomes irrational and kills him. Or they fear the lawsuits that will come (WILL, not may) when some employee blows away a thug that is robbing the place. Or 1000 other scenarios that lead to lawsuits. Combine that with the fear of the uninformed or the hatred of the anti-gunners, and it adds up to stupid policy.

I just don't understand the anti-gun mentality. People who go postal and/ or irrational and kill people won't obey the policy anyway. I guess after such an event the church could point to the policy and say "see, we tried to stop this…".

[Guest Lester Weevils]

I just don't understand the anti-gun mentality. People who go postal and/ or irrational and kill people won't obey the policy anyway. I guess after such an event the church could point to the policy and say "see, we tried to stop this…".

I don't know much and am not advocating any particular policy. But a long time ago I drove forklift at a factory with about 500 employees. Mostly assembly line folk, hydraulic press operators, tinbenders, paint line workers, etc.

By and large the foks were good as gold, same as any place. But the pay wasn't great and the nature of the work wasn't all that pleasant in the middle of summer or middle of winter especially. There was a certain percentage of fairly rough characters who didn't have the social skills to work anywhere else. The factory didn't pay enough to be real picky about who they hired, as long as the workers would show up and put in a days work.

Tempers would sometimes flare. Sometimes it would blow over and sometimes there were on-the-spot firings or walkouts.

I don't recall any malcontents coming back the next day looking for trouble. Cooling-off time and all that. If the guy had a rifle in the trunk of the car (no cooling off time) maybe the odds of something unfortunate would be higher. That place had the "no guns on premises" rule, and it was a firing offense if broken.

Dunno if it really avoids any trouble, but not every employee is a laid-back reasonable individual possessed of good judgement...

[Guest nicemac]

I don't know much and am not advocating any particular policy. But a long time ago I drove forklift at a factory with about 500 employees. Mostly assembly line folk, hydraulic press operators, tinbenders, paint line workers, etc.

By and large the foks were good as gold, same as any place. But the pay wasn't great and the nature of the work wasn't all that pleasant in the middle of summer or middle of winter especially. There was a certain percentage of fairly rough characters who didn't have the social skills to work anywhere else. The factory didn't pay enough to be real picky about who they hired, as long as the workers would show up and put in a days work.

Tempers would sometimes flare. Sometimes it would blow over and sometimes there were on-the-spot firings or walkouts.

I don't recall any malcontents coming back the next day looking for trouble. Cooling-off time and all that. If the guy had a rifle in the trunk of the car (no cooling off time) maybe the odds of something unfortunate would be higher. That place had the "no guns on premises" rule, and it was a firing offense if broken.

Dunno if it really avoids any trouble, but not every employee is a laid-back reasonable individual possessed of good judgement...

But you'd like to think that the church staff would not have a bunch of hotheads in their midst.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

But you'd like to think that the church staff would not have a bunch of hotheads in their midst.

Yes I agree. Was just speaking in generalities that in some situations maybe the policy isn't a completely stupid idea. I don't have a definite opinion and can see both sides.

[robbiev]

I'm not sure about the exact legalities, but I think "No illegal weapons allowed" or "Illegal weapons are banned on this property" would be a good company policy.

[peejman]

I don't recall any malcontents coming back the next day looking for trouble. Cooling-off time and all that. If the guy had a rifle in the trunk of the car (no cooling off time) maybe the odds of something unfortunate would be higher. That place had the "no guns on premises" rule, and it was a firing offense if broken.

Dunno if it really avoids any trouble, but not every employee is a laid-back reasonable individual possessed of good judgement...

I'd bet significant $$ that most of those "rough characters" (and plenty not so rough) had guns in their cars, regardless of company policy. Everywhere I've worked banned guns both in the building and in employees' cars. That doesn't stop lots of people, HCP holder's included.

I'm not sure about the exact legalities, but I think "No illegal weapons allowed" or "Illegal weapons are banned on this property" would be a good company policy.

This. It must be simple, concise, direct. Personally, I like the "no unauthorized weapons". Just have an official form that provides authorization, signed by the employee and management. That helps ensure that the management is aware and can't "play dumb".

[TGO David]

But you'd like to think that the church staff would not have a bunch of hotheads in their midst.

While I hope this doesn't harm anyone's delicate sensibilities here, I would be remiss if I didn't point out that it has been my own experience that you run into some real kooks at church due to the "Welcome! Jesus loves everyone!" atmosphere of acceptance at play.

On one hand, yes, you want to reach out to the lost and downtrodden. On the other hand, when you cast a net that wide you come up with some real nutcases as well. Why? I can only rationalize it's because Church is the one place where they feel welcome and not [overtly] judged by the normal people.

Churches need good, solid security programs in place because of that. It should included allowing staff and members to come armed, and should also include a planned response to active aggressor scenarios.

[Fallguy]

I'm not sure about the exact legalities, but I think "No illegal weapons allowed" or "Illegal weapons are banned on this property" would be a good company policy.

Well...what is an "illegal weapon"? Rarely is the weapon itself illegal only the possession of it in certain circumstances. If one was going to go that route I believe the suggestion below is bit better, but not sure how many places would be willing to actually issue written authorization.

Personally, I like the "no unauthorized weapons". Just have an official form that provides authorization, signed by the employee and management. That helps ensure that the management is aware and can't "play dumb".

[Wazzu]

When I wrote our church employee manual I specifically did NOT include a ban on weapons. After the shooting at the Untiarian/Universalist Church in Knoxville, we were not about to make all of our members into defenseless victims. In addition, every service has designated HCP holders trained in security procedures.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

I'd bet significant $$ that most of those "rough characters" (and plenty not so rough) had guns in their cars, regardless of company policy. Everywhere I've worked banned guns both in the building and in employees' cars. That doesn't stop lots of people, HCP holder's included.

Thanks peejman. Excellent point and even over age 60 something I'm too naive to often consider. I too often assume folks will follow rules.

Not that I'm especially dedicated to slavishly following arbitrary rules, but if you read and sign the rules sheet on entering employment it is basically a contract, and I am dedicated to folks following contracts.

[Guest nicemac]

When I wrote our church employee manual I specifically did NOT include a ban on weapons. After the shooting at the Untiarian/Universalist Church in Knoxville, we were not about to make all of our members into defenseless victims. In addition, every service has designated HCP holders trained in security procedures.

The leadership of our church all have HCPs. We went as a group (along with other members of the church) and got our permits together. At least two in leadership are always carrying, and several members as well. We will not sit defenseless and watch our people be executed.

[hornett22]

I'd find another church. If i caught wind of any anti gun policies at my church for members or employees my membership would end immediatly!

[Guest marauder]

I'd find another church. If i caught wind of any anti gun policies at my church for members or employees my membership would end immediatly!

i prefer to remain and work to end the policy, even if i have to do so incrementally. i do so because of Matthew 25:40.

[Chadastrophic]

But you'd like to think that the church staff would not have a bunch of hotheads in their midst.

My old supervisor was also a youth minister and the biggest "hot head" i've ever known.

[vontar]

How about this.

Last Page.

For those with a valid HCP on alternating Sundays we meet at the range after worship. Bring your pistols, ammo and cleaning supplies. Refreshments will be provided.

(Serves notice to the nut jobs and might encourage more members to attend.)

I know I know probably jumps out at you to much.

Sorry I can't really help write one to limit firearms or weapons, even using the Bible, on Luke 22:36.

I mean if you put something like you may not bring any firearms in to our building, implying to leave in the car. That is one option. However other people can as long as the place is not posted.

As others have said, if you post their Church, they may go to another Church or stop going.

Edited July 30, 2011 by vontar

[Guest marauder]

How about this.Last Page.For those with a valid HCP on alternating Sundays we meet at the range after worship. Bring your pistols, ammo and cleaning supplies. Refreshments will be provided.(Serves notice to the nut jobs and might encourage more members to attend.)I know I know probably jumps out at you to much.Sorry I can't really help write one to limit firearms or weapons, even using the Bible, on Luke 22:36.I mean if you put something like you may not bring any firearms in to our building, implying to leave in the car. That is one option. However other people can as long as the place is not posted.As others have said, if you post their Church, they may go to another Church or stop going.

I am not asking you to help word a document to prevent firearms. Nor am I talking about posting the property I am asking for suggestions to loosen the current restrictions that completely bar employees from having firearms on the property. I want to eventually get tot the point of no restrictions but it will have to be done gradually, instead of just one fell swoop, I won't have the votes for that any time soon.

[vontar]

Then how about taking a page from this bank

Lawful concealed carry permitted on these premises.

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/2nd-amendment-issues/60071-bank-encourages-open-carry-finally-some-logic.html

Since you are wanting it for the parking lot

change to something like this, Those that lawfully carry handguns may not bring them in the premises but may leave them locked in their cars.

This would allow them to travel to and from work protecting themselves as if we had a valid parking lot bill in place like some other states like KY. I really want a parking lot bill.