Beretta Tomcat

[Guest UKTN]

My wife recently got a Beretta Tomcat 32 ACP as her carry gun, and I know it is a "blow back" design but what does that mean? Is that why when manually working the slide the cartridge in the tip up barrel doesn't eject?

[molonlabetn]

Blow-back operation means that the rearward motion of the slide or bolt is not delayed by a locking mechanism (such as the lugs and tilting barrel on most pistols).

[Guest Jamie]

My wife recently got a Beretta Tomcat 32 ACP as her carry gun, and I know it is a "blow back" design but what does that mean? Is that why when manually working the slide the cartridge in the tip up barrel doesn't eject?

Howdy...

The Tomcat, like my Bobcat, doesn't have an extractor. I guess it was just too hard or expensive for them to figure out how to put one in and still have the tip-up barrel. It's also the reason you can't rack the slide to empty the chamber.

J.C.

[Guest UKTN]

I just realized that thank you (no extractor) I guess it is the "for every reaction there is an equal and opposite reaction" that gets the spent cartridge case out of the barrel.

[The Rabbi]

Howdy...

The Tomcat, like my Bobcat, doesn't have an extractor. I guess it was just too hard or expensive for them to figure out how to put one in and still have the tip-up barrel. It's also the reason you can't rack the slide to empty the chamber.

J.C.

Actually no pure blowback action has an ejector. They all have extractors though.

[Guest Jamie]

Actually no pure blowback action has an ejector. They all have extractors though.

Begging your pardon, but every semi-auto I've ever seen in my 38 years of shooting has had an ejector. And that's both blow-back and delayed blow-back locking breach varieties.

In a 1911 ( locked breach ), the extractor pulls the spent casing out of the chamber and holds it against the breach face. Once the slide has traveled far enough, the edge of the shell casing catches on the ejector, and is pitched/pivoted out the ejection port.

This process is pretty much the same for blow-back guns, except the slide isn't delayed until pressure in the barrel has dropped.

For what it's worth, many semi-autos will still run with a broken extractor. Never seen the first one that would work without an ejector though. At least not for more than one shot.

Oh, and here's a pic of my Beretta Bobcat with it's slide off.

You see that piece sticking up in front of the hammer? That's the ejector. And if you look at the slide, you'll notice that it's slick; no extractor to be found:

Any questions? :P

[The Rabbi]

Yeah, that's what I was saying....

[Guest Jamie]

Yeah, that's what I was saying....

The funny thing is, most blow-backs have both parts; extractor and ejector. It helps in guiding the spent case out in the right direction. Beretta's Jetfire, Tomcat, and Bobcat - along with Taurus' "copies" of the same design - are the only ones I can think of that don't.

( I'm sure there may be others, but those are the only ones I know of that are still being made. )

[Marswolf]

Interestingly enough, in the Kel-Tec P3AT the first generation had an ejector, but they eliminated it in the second generation.

Guess there are no hard and fast rules.

[Guest Jamie]

Interestingly enough, in the Kel-Tec P3AT the first generation had an ejector, but they eliminated it in the second generation.

Guess there are no hard and fast rules.

Well, if you want a cartridge case to do something other than ride the breach face and jam up the works, there's at least one: You gotta have something to "kick" it out of the way.

In the case of the P3AT, it looks like part no. 115 there is it:

Now, I don't know if that schematic is for a 1st or 2nd generating gun, but I did get it off Kel-Tec's web site.

http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/p3atparts.html

One way or the other, a semi-auto has to have something to get the case off the breach face once it's fired. It might be a dedicated part, or possibly even some other surface, like the back of the magazine or some part of the frame. But one way or the other something is serving the role of ejector.

Edited March 6, 2008 by Jamie

[Marswolf]

Well, if you want a cartridge case to do something other than ride the breach face and jam up the works, there's at least one: You gotta have something to "kick" it out of the way.

In the case of the P3AT, it looks like part no. 115 there is it:

One way or the other, a semi-auto has to have something to get the case off the breach face once it's fired. It might be a dedicated part, or possibly even some other surface, like the back of the magazine or some part of the frame. But one way or the other something is serving the role of ejector.

I've recounted the story of my forgetting to re-install the ejector in a gen 1 P3AT several times and the little handgun functioning flawlessly. Kel-Tec found that it wasn't needed.

The diagram you posts is a gen2. The part is labeled as an ejector but really isn't one. It now just fills a frame gap.

Here is the diagram for the 1st gen gun. Note that the ejector in that one really does function. As I said, the gen 2 P3AT does not have an ejector.

[Guest Jamie]

Marswolf, when you rack the slide on your P3AT when the chamber is loaded, what happens? Does the cartridge stay caught under the extractor hook, or is it flipped out of the gun?

If it doesn't stay under the hook... what's pushing it out?

[enfield]

My NAA Guardian .380 doesn't have an ejector. NAA says that the next round in the mag ejects the previous case, and I've heard that some Guardians will stovepipe on the last round for that reason. Mine doesn't.

[Marswolf]

Marswolf, when you rack the slide on your P3AT when the chamber is loaded, what happens? Does the cartridge stay caught under the extractor hook, or is it flipped out of the gun?

If it doesn't stay under the hook... what's pushing it out?

The round flips out quite nicely. Horizontal and to the rear.

As I mentioned, it did that in the 1st generation one even without the ejector.

In the 2nd generation, it does look like the modified extractor has more of a hook on it that probably aids reliability of ejection.

But once again, it did fine even in the gen 1.

[Guest Jamie]

The round flips out quite nicely. Horizontal and to the rear.

As I mentioned, it did that in the 1st generation one even without the ejector.

In the 2nd generation, it does look like the modified extractor has more of a hook on it that probably aids reliability of ejection.

But once again, it did fine even in the gen 1.

Okay... then what's pushing the cartridge out from under the extractor hook? What's the case head catching on that's kicking it out? As I said earlier, something has to be acting on the case to get it to leave. If it's not the ejector it's self, then there's something else acting in it's place. It could be the next round in the mag, or any number of other things. But one thing is certain: The case or cartridge isn't jumping out of the gun all on it's own.

P.S. I'm not trying to start a fight here, or continue an argument just for the fun of it. I have a degree in mechanical design, and have owned and worked on a lot of guns. I know that there are certain things that must be, to make a firearm work properly. And since what you're telling me defies what I have learned over the years, I really want to know what a P3AT is doing to accomplish the ejection process without something functioning as an ejector.

Edited March 6, 2008 by Jamie

[Marswolf]

I don't like doing this as a general rule (sending people to another board), but I wrote a comparison of the two generations of the P3AT at http://www.hk94.com/hk/Bought-a-replacement-Kel-Tec-P3AT-t21370.html.

I wouldn't feel right in copying it to here

[Marswolf]

Okay... then what's pushing the cartridge out from under the extractor hook?

Whatever it is, it's not an ejector....

BTW, it also works fine without the magazine in the handgun, so it isn't the next round or something on the mag.

[Guest Jamie]

Damn... it's starting to look like I'm gonna have to either borrow or buy a P3AT...

( I really don't want one, but I've got to find out how the blasted things work now.... )