National debt...is it the start?

[CM1021]

So with all of this national debt crap going on i'm just wondering if this is gonna be the start of maybe slow chaos? Lord forbid there's a government shutdown...will people start freaking out? I know it happened once before but I was too young to remember it...

[Guest NashvegasMatt]

A government shutdown is a situation in which the government stops providing all but "essential" services. Typically, services that continue despite a shutdown include police, fire fighting, postal service, armed forces, utilities, air traffic management, and corrections. So no, nothing major "shuts down" The reasons are usually financial, but also can be brought about by other things. Upon appropriation, the anti-deficiency act(1982) defines what can, and cannot be shut down... so as not to cause caos.

[DaveTN]

The National Debt is just like my internet connection…. The numbers are so high they don’t even mean anything anymore.

We will do what everyone that can’t pay their bills does…. We won’t pay it. Only difference is with the national debt there isn’t anyone that can do anything about it.

At least that’s Obamas (and most other politicians) take on it.

For the last 30 years the financial experts have been telling us that our economy can’t recover until our manufacturing base recovers. “We the people†refuse to listen to them because of our own individual greed.

This is on us. We control it and we can change it on any given day.

[chunkee]

Davetn is correct. This is not a politicians fault, nor a party's, nor china's. Is is the laziness of us to do something about it. In this consumer based economy, we are the consumers. What change, make it happen and get involved.

[Guest President Fernatt]

It isn't that big of a deal. Everyone panics over China but in reality they will never take over. China is a communist nation where half the nation doesn't even know they had the olympics there a couple years back, they have no sufficient trash service so it piles in the streets, forced abortions, and censored internet. They are much more troubled than many think. If we did get to a situation where we were facing a default in our economy we could simply suspend aid to foreign nations (including the 2billion to China). That aid would be converted to cash flow to our government and debts which would free us from default. The debt limit should not be raised because it will force us to live within our means. Don't buy in to the media hype about a looming catastrophe...it's just a talking point.

[Guest President Fernatt]

In addition to that, I agree with the above statements that it is our fault. WE choose the leaders and unfortunately the majority of Americans vote for themselves. By that, I mean they vote for the politician that can do the most for them. Healthcare, Jobs, Money from aid and rebates, scholarships, food stamp abuse and the ever so prevalent yet normally unjustified "disability". A lady asked Ben Franklin what they had achieved after one of the meetings to establish the nation...he replied, "A republic so long as you can keep it." It is up to us and no one else! Forefathers stated that the Republic would cease to exist when people discovered that they could essentially vote to give themselves money and they used Rome as an example of that fact. Americans have strayed from the Republic in favor of a perverted Democracy where they vote individuals into office that are most likely to grant them $. Our nation has perverted our foundation and we are to blame for any catastrophe...however, refering to my previous statement...America still has much wiggle room before collapse or default.

[DaveTN]

It isn't that big of a deal. Everyone panics over China but in reality they will never take over.

This isn’t about anyone taking over anything or anyone. No nation on earth has the ability to wage war with us. Not China, not North Korea, not the two of them combined. As long as any country has the ability to launch ballistic missiles and other countries do not have the ability to knock them down; they are safe.

Don't buy in to the media hype about a looming catastrophe...it's just a talking point.

You better buy into it. I’m 57 years old. I think I’ll make it through retirement okay. You probably won’t and your kids damn sure won’t. You can’t turn your back on your country and expect to survive, and they aren’t enough patriotsleft to carry your share of the load.

[Guest President Fernatt]

This isn’t about anyone taking over anything or anyone. No nation on earth has the ability to wage war with us. Not China, not North Korea, not the two of them combined. As long as any country has the ability to launch ballistic missiles and other countries do not have the ability to knock them down; they are safe.

You better buy into it. I’m 57 years old. I think I’ll make it through retirement okay. You probably won’t and your kids damn sure won’t. You can’t turn your back on your country and expect to survive, and they aren’t enough patriotsleft to carry your share of the load.

You are slightly missing the point with the "take over." I am meaning "take over" as in economical and cultural advancemnt...not simply the barbaric facts of war.

As far as retirement goes...I'm 21 years old so I know for a fact I will not see Social Security or any other retirement from this country...but that's ok with me. I am one of the individuals who believes it isn't this nation's job to "carry my load" so I expect nothing from them. It is my responsibility to create my own retirement, live within my means, and save money for my future in order to secure a retirement. It isn't this Nation's job to take care of me and I don't expect anything from them...it's my job to take care of myself, not look at the government for help. Not sure who you think is turning their back on their country but I can guarantee you it isn't this young man. America is bruised but it's still beautiful. My patriotism runs deep...deeper than those expecting something from a crippled nation I would argue.

[Guest President Fernatt]

I understand the cleverness of this being in "Survival Skills" but I think it should obviously be moved to "National Politics".

[Guest bkelm18]

You better buy into it. I’m 57 years old. I think I’ll make it through retirement okay. You probably won’t and your kids damn sure won’t. You can’t turn your back on your country and expect to survive, and they aren’t enough patriotsleft to carry your share of the load.

I hate to break it to ya, enough people have already turned their back on this country. It's only going to get worse and no amount of pontificating on the internet is going to change it. The country as it is right now, the country as we know it today, will not last. I foresee two potential eventualities for right minded Americans: Civil War/Cessation or Assimilation into the progressive mindset. Democracy is a terrible form of government for long term survival. As much as we want this to stay the land of the free, I'm afraid the vast majority of us are not willing to do what is needed to take back our country. That's just the way it works. History is a wonderful teacher.

[DaveTN]

I understand the cleverness of this being in "Survival Skills" but I think it should obviously be moved to "National Politics".

Why does it matter where it is?

[Oh Shoot]

I understand the cleverness of this being in "Survival Skills" but I think it should obviously be moved to "National Politics".

If we crash "only" as badly as the Depression of the 30's, we'll likely lose at least 25% of our population in a few years or less. We are so far from being the same country we were then it's uncharted territory.

Though most of the book is a Ramboesque survivalist's wet dream, you should read the first couple chapters of Rawles' Patriots. The progression of how a financial meltdown could throw the country into chaos almost as quickly as a total EMP is quite compelling -- and 90% of his scenario has already occurred.

Methinks this forum is quite appropriate for the topic.

- OS

[Guest President Fernatt]

Why does it matter where it is?

Why does it not matter where it is? we can do this all day lol

If we crash "only" as badly as the Depression of the 30's, we'll likely lose at least 25% of our population in a few years or less. We are so far from being the same country we were then it's uncharted territory.

Though most of the book is a Ramboesque survivalist's wet dream, you should read the first couple chapters of Rawles' Patriots. The progression of how a financial meltdown could throw the country into chaos almost as quickly as a total EMP is quite compelling -- and 90% of his scenario has already occurred.

Methinks this forum is quite appropriate for the topic.

- OS

I think the scenario of National collapse is slightly unrealistic and even if it did occur it may be benificial. An unlikely collapse of the nation would kill off all the people who mooch off the government. Would that be such a bad thing?

[Oh Shoot]

... An unlikely collapse of the nation would kill off all the people who mooch off the government. Would that be such a bad thing?

Yep, All those who mooch pensions of any kind, IRAs, 401Ks, stock or bond investments. All those who mooch electrical, water, and sanitation services. All those who mooch bread for under $10 a loaf and gasoline for under $10 per gallon. All those who mooch mass transit, police protection, firemen. All those who mooch Medicare and Social Security. In short, anyone who needs money or public services.

All those deadbeats. Good riddance.

- OS

[Guest President Fernatt]

Yep, All those who mooch pensions of any kind, IRAs, 401Ks, stock or bond investments. All those who mooch electrical, water, and sanitation services. All those who mooch bread for under $10 a loaf and gasoline for under $10 per gallon. All those who mooch mass transit, police protection, firemen. All those who mooch Medicare and Social Security. In short, anyone who needs money or public services.

All those deadbeats. Good riddance.

- OS

I'm sorry, but in reality the fact is a government shutdown will only end non-essential services. Are you seriously suggesting that if our debt limit isn't raised then all the things you just mentioned would occur and we would be reduced to a lawless society unable to feed ourselves, clothe ourselves, or sustain modern life?

[Oh Shoot]

I'm sorry, but in reality the fact is a government shutdown will only end non-essential services. Are you seriously suggesting that if our debt limit isn't raised then all the things you just mentioned would occur and we would be reduced to a lawless society unable to feed ourselves, clothe ourselves, or sustain modern life?

Not referring to the present "crisis". The current Aug debt limit deadline is just another baby step, relatively insignificant in and of itself.

There is only one way to pay off the US National Debt, or even eventually keep up with the interest rate on top of providing anything like current services, and that is to inflate the USD so that creditors are paid in a fraction of the worth of the money they invested. The Great Depression (deflationary in nature) will be a walk in the park compared to the coming Great Meltdown (inflationary in nature).

- OS

[Guest 6.8 AR]

It really depends on who is shutting

down what. Your assumption of what

will be shut down is a bit too optimistic. The politics, being what it

is, and the motivation of the people

shutting things down are various.

It's not safe to assume anything

right now, except that the ones in

charge are very untrustworthy.

Regardless of who one wishes to blame, it is still up to you whether

you survive or not. Should have

been that way all along.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Moped]

If your looking for an example of what OS is talking about, look at Germany before Hitler came to power. Then it took a wheel barrow full of Marks to buy a loaf of bread.

I too, think this is merely a baby step on the downhill slide we are on now. I think we've been on it since the fall of the iron curtain. It cost us too much to defeat the Old USSR. We spent them into oblivion and then we never stopped spending. I think now it's probably too late to do anything about it. We no longer have the will to change, nor maybe even the capacity too. We are about to find out what Great Britain found out after the Suez Crisis. What it's like to be a former super power.

Edited July 17, 2011 by Moped

[Guest President Fernatt]

I guess we will simply have to agree to disagree about how severe the apparent crisis is now in relation to the future of this Country. Bottom line is you all will be long gone or at least in diapers again by the time this fully materializes and it will be my generation that will have to deal with this mess. I do feel it is possible for me to see a civil war or at least a peaceful disolve of the nation into 2 or more parts...if the entitlement mentality isn't lost. The only way to save this Country is to suffer for a short period of time in order to create some income. If people refuse to care more about their country than their disability/social security check that wont happen. The US should state that anyone born after 2000 will not pay into or get social security. They should ensure that those who are 40 or over will have no change to their social security and can retire at the current age. Then of course those that are below 40 will have to wait til 70 to get the benefits. Flat Tax should be installed on civilians while a variation tax remains for businesses and the Department of Education should be disolved. Education should be left to the State and waste in the Department of Defense should be reduced. Congress members' life-time pay and perks should end and only those in "desperate" need should be able to get disability or government assistance. Affirmative Action will cease to exist and illegal immigration will have a zero tolerance policy. Deplete half of the Strategic Oil Reserves in order to save money instead of buying oil from the Middle East. Drill during that process in order to recover more oil that we will then place back into reserves while establishing an oil buying relationship with Brazil. Increase taxes on companies who refuse to do business in the US and reduce taxes on businesses and corporations who manufacture within the US. Cut funding to "pork" and non-essential things like hummingbird research or snail migration studies. Completely end foreign aid to countries who harbor or support terrorism and continue but greatly reduce aid to countries who support our goals. Use those savings to re-invest in our infrastructure and to pay off debt. It will be up to the people to save their own money for retirement unless they are government or military employees who will get a modest retirement. Companies who choose to can offer retirement from their own bank accounts can do so. The rest of the country will have to learn money management in order to secure their own future. It isn't the government's job to take care of us or to set us up with a nice future. It is the Government's job to take care of infrastructure, police fire and ems, and military protection/border protection. That's it. This...is my perfect America! I'll be running for President when I turn 35 and I expect your vote haha =)

[Oh Shoot]

I guess we will simply have to agree to disagree about how severe the apparent crisis is now in relation to the future of this Country....

I would like to hope you're right, but even if outright catastrophe doesn't occur, I can see nothing better than long term degradation of quality of life in the US. I'd look to traditional Soviet style living standard as approximate model, but without the basically free urban mass transit and residence infrastructure.

Btw, don't be so afraid of the Enter key.

- OS

Edited July 17, 2011 by OhShoot

[DaveTN]

I guess we will simply have to agree to disagree about how severe the apparent crisis is now in relation to the future of this Country. Bottom line is you all will be long gone or at least in diapers again by the time this fully materializes and it will be my generation that will have to deal with this mess. I do feel it is possible for me to see a civil war or at least a peaceful disolve of the nation into 2 or more parts...if the entitlement mentality isn't lost. The only way to save this Country is to suffer for a short period of time in order to create some income. If people refuse to care more about their country than their disability/social security check that wont happen. The US should state that anyone born after 2000 will not pay into or get social security. They should ensure that those who are 40 or over will have no change to their social security and can retire at the current age. Then of course those that are below 40 will have to wait til 70 to get the benefits. Flat Tax should be installed on civilians while a variation tax remains for businesses and the Department of Education should be disolved. Education should be left to the State and waste in the Department of Defense should be reduced. Congress members' life-time pay and perks should end and only those in "desperate" need should be able to get disability or government assistance. Affirmative Action will cease to exist and illegal immigration will have a zero tolerance policy. Deplete half of the Strategic Oil Reserves in order to save money instead of buying oil from the Middle East. Drill during that process in order to recover more oil that we will then place back into reserves while establishing an oil buying relationship with Brazil. Increase taxes on companies who refuse to do business in the US and reduce taxes on businesses and corporations who manufacture within the US. Cut funding to "pork" and non-essential things like hummingbird research or snail migration studies. Completely end foreign aid to countries who harbor or support terrorism and continue but greatly reduce aid to countries who support our goals. Use those savings to re-invest in our infrastructure and to pay off debt. It will be up to the people to save their own money for retirement unless they are government or military employees who will get a modest retirement. Companies who choose to can offer retirement from their own bank accounts can do so. The rest of the country will have to learn money management in order to secure their own future. It isn't the government's job to take care of us or to set us up with a nice future. It is the Government's job to take care of infrastructure, police fire and ems, and military protection/border protection. That's it. This...is my perfect America! I'll be running for President when I turn 35 and I expect your vote haha =)

You seem to have the idea that all us old guys are planning on lying around and living off the government. You went into that tirade after my retirement remark. I wasn’t implying all us old guys are going to live off the government.

OS beat me to it.........

Hit the “Enter†key and breathe once in a while. We have these things called paragraphs that make it easier for us old guys to read. You have ideas that you obviously believe in, but it’s hard to read when they all run together.

You aren’t the President with a speech writer yet and if you want to get elected you will be judged here not only on what you say, but how you present it.

[Guest President Fernatt]

I would like to hope you're right, but even if outright catastrophe doesn't occur, I can see nothing better than long term degradation of quality of life in the US. I'd look to traditional Soviet style living standard as approximate model, but without the basically free urban mass transit and residence infrastructure.

Btw, don't be so afraid of the Enter key.

- OS

I hope not, Soviets are dirty...oh, and what enter key? lol

You seem to have the idea that all us old guys are planning on lying around and living off the government. You went into that tirade after my retirement remark. I wasn’t implying all us old guys are going to live off the government.

OS beat me to it.........

Hit the “Enter” key and breathe once in a while. We have these things called paragraphs that make it easier for us old guys to read. You have ideas that you obviously believe in, but it’s hard to read when they all run together.

You aren’t the President with a speech writer yet and if you want to get elected you will be judged here not only on what you say, but how you present it.

No, it's just that social security seems to be one of the biggest issues people have with the debt limit and potential end of entitlement programs or check distribution. You "old guys" have paid your dues so I'm not giving you a hard time.

As for the "enter" key...I'm used to writing college papers that are at least 14-20 pages long and MLA format is something I have grown to despise yet respect. Having said that...I don't even think about touching that enter key unless I have completely finished my train of thought or have approached about 3-500 words lol. Bad habit for typing small conversations in texting format I suppose. The whole president thing is just a joke btw, who would ever want that job?!?

[Guest Lester Weevils]

It takes too much energy to create the bits in all those gratuitous CR-LF Enter key combinations. Unix is 50 percent more efficient using LF only, but even with Unix the Enter key remains a criminal waste of perfectly good electrons and bits which should be more efficiently allocated to a socially responsible smiley icon quota.

We should ban the Enter key to avoid polluting the atmosphere with zillions of megatons of carbon, thereby saving us from global warming and protecting Al Gore's beach front investments. Of course we additionally must tune up our cars and properly inflate our tires.

Balancing the Fed budget is trivially simple. Just pick the plan you like best:

1. Cut all expenditures by 45 percent across the board.

2. Raise all taxes by 75 percent across the board.

3. Cut all expenditures by 25 percent and raise all taxes by 35 percent.

It should be noted that cutting all pork, foreign aid, NPR, abortion funding, Lawrence Welk museums, skateboard parks, snail migration research and evolution education funding will get us at least 0.001 percent toward the necessary spending cuts target, while also making political enemies out of millions of relatively harmless NPR lovers, abortion activists, Lawrence Welk fans, skateboard punks, snail advocates, and atheist descendants of monkeys.

When you do the other 99.999 percent of the cuts required, you will have made political enemies of about 1000 percent of the total USA population. (two bytes subtracted from my annual smiley icon quota)

[Guest President Fernatt]

It takes too much energy to create the bits in all those gratuitous CR-LF Enter key combinations. Unix is 50 percent more efficient using LF only, but even with Unix the Enter key remains a criminal waste of perfectly good electrons and bits which should be more efficiently allocated to a socially responsible smiley icon quota.

We should ban the Enter key to avoid polluting the atmosphere with zillions of megatons of carbon, thereby saving us from global warming and protecting Al Gore's beach front investments. Of course we additionally must tune up our cars and properly inflate our tires.

Balancing the Fed budget is trivially simple. Just pick the plan you like best:

1. Cut all expenditures by 45 percent across the board.

2. Raise all taxes by 75 percent across the board.

3. Cut all expenditures by 25 percent and raise all taxes by 35 percent.

It should be noted that cutting all pork, foreign aid, NPR, abortion funding, Lawrence Welk museums, skateboard parks, snail migration research and evolution education funding will get us at least 0.001 percent toward the necessary spending cuts target, while also making political enemies out of millions of relatively harmless NPR lovers, abortion activists, Lawrence Welk fans, skateboard punks, snail advocates, and atheist descendants of monkeys.

When you do the other 99.999 percent of the cuts required, you will have made political enemies of about 1000 percent of the total USA population. (two bytes subtracted from my annual smiley icon quota)

I wished I cared this much at 10 in the morning to make an amazingly creative post lol Aside from that...I suppose I would choose option number 1 since it is the only one which does not raise taxes. Although cutting expenditures by 45% across the board would indeed create the 1000% enemy population you spoke of.

I appreciate your smiley icon consideration but you forgot to subract all your "enter" key spendings from your useless keys quota. I expect you to feel out the proper forms with the Internal Typing Revenue Service. They will require a full list of all the dates, times, and sites where you pressed the enter key to be turned in immediately. You may file for an extension but that may certainly expose you to an enter key audit. If done properly and on time it may be likely to expect a small enter key rebate back. Much luck! (no bytes subtracted, I'm an illegal immigrant so I don't have to file smiley quotas)

[Guest Republican]

A financial collapse is inevitable if there is not a major change in the 2012 election. If the US would elect Ron Paul for president it could very well be preventable. He is a no bull constitutionalist who will do his best to eliminate needless goverment spending and rebuild America with a voting record to prove it.

Whats the big deal anyways, its only 14 trillion dollars. I mean, there are 307 million people in this country. Lets just all write a $45,000 check and pay this deficit off already. I personally will need to post date my check several years but I am sure everyone else is good for it.

Or, we could just raise the debt ceiling and spend our way out of debt. <----What are these people thinking?????

Edited July 29, 2011 by Republican