Does anybody carry while at church?

[Guest GLOCKGUY]

You calling this guy a fairy?

Oh btw Mars,I have been looking for a P3AT and they seem to be out of stock every where.Even budsgunshop.com is out.Whats the deal,pickle?

ya Ive been looking for one two for awhile now cant seam to find one no where

[molonlabetn]

Hero Gear had a couple... I bought one of them right off the shelf recently. I'm not sure about right this minute, but I always see a few K-T pistols there ready to go.

[Marswolf]

You calling this guy a fairy?

Oh btw Mars,I have been looking for a P3AT and they seem to be out of stock every where.Even budsgunshop.com is out.Whats the deal,pickle?

I have wondered about him. But he could be packing.

For some reason some shops have a hard time keeping the P3AT in stock and others don't seem to have that problem.

[The Rabbi]

The biggest issue with Kel Tec from a business standpoint is that you can't count on supply. It happens I have a P3AT in stock but now I cant get a PF9. The P32s are usually around.

This is the reason two of my distributors think Ruger will win out over Kel Tec in the .380 dept--because Ruger has tremendously more production capacity than KT.

[molonlabetn]

I could certainly understand that... if someone comes in looking for a P3AT, but only the LCP is in stock, most likely they will simply buy the Ruger instead of waiting.

[Guest CornFedGreenHead]

Some of you state that they go to church in a place that is a church and a school. Do you mean a christian type school that has to do with the church? I meet in a church that rents from a school every sunday until we build a new building. Should I carry? Is the school a school all the time or when students are there? Is it a church on sundays?

Curious.

[Marswolf]

CornFedGreenHead, Tennessee code says:

39-17-1309. Carrying weapons on school property. —

(a) As used in this section, “weapon of like kind†includes razors and razor blades, except those used solely for personal shaving, and any sharp pointed or edged instrument, except unaltered nail files and clips and tools used solely for preparation of food, instruction and maintenance.

( (1) It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, with the intent to go armed, any firearm, explosive, explosive weapon, bowie knife, hawk bill knife, ice pick, dagger, slingshot, leaded cane, switchblade knife, blackjack, knuckles or any other weapon of like kind, not used solely for instructional or school-sanctioned ceremonial purposes, in any public or private school building or bus, on any public or private school campus, grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated by any board of education, school, college or university board of trustees, regents or directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution.

(2) A violation of this subsection ( is a Class E felony.

© (1) It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, any firearm, not used solely for instructional or school-sanctioned ceremonial purposes, in any public or private school building or bus, on any public or private school campus, grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated by any board of education, school, college or university board of trustees, regents or directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution. It is not an offense under this subsection © for a nonstudent adult to possess a firearm, if the firearm is contained within a private vehicle operated by the adult and is not handled by the adult, or by any other person acting with the expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on school property.

(2) A violation of this subsection © is a Class B misdemeanor.

(d) (1) Each chief administrator of a public or private school shall display in prominent locations about the school a sign, at least six inches (6²) high and fourteen inches (14²) wide, stating:

FELONY. STATE LAW PRESCRIBES A MAXIMUM PENALTY OF SIX (6) YEARS IMPRISONMENT AND A FINE NOT TO EXCEED THREE THOUSAND DOLLARS ($3,000) FOR CARRYING WEAPONS ON SCHOOL PROPERTY.

(2) As used in this subsection (d), “prominent locations about a school†includes, but is not limited to, sports arenas, gymnasiums, stadiums and cafeterias.

(e) The provisions of subsections ( and © do not apply to the following persons:

(1) Persons employed in the army, air force, navy, coast guard or marine service of the United States or any member of the Tennessee national guard when in discharge of their official duties and acting under orders requiring them to carry arms or weapons;

(2) Civil officers of the United States in the discharge of their official duties;

(3) Officers and soldiers of the militia and the national guard when called into actual service;

(4) Officers of the state, or of any county, city or town, charged with the enforcement of the laws of the state, when in the discharge of their official duties;

(5) Any pupils who are members of the reserve officers training corps or pupils enrolled in a course of instruction or members of a club or team, and who are required to carry arms or weapons in the discharge of their official class or team duties;

(6) Any private police employed by the administration or board of trustees of any public or private institution of higher education in the discharge of their duties; and

(7) Any registered security guard/officer who meets the requirements of title 62, chapter 35, and who is discharging the officer's official duties.

[Acts 1989, ch. 591, § 1; 1990, ch. 1029, § 8; 1991, ch. 510, §§ 1-3; 1996, ch. 1009, § 24.]

39-17-1310. Affirmative defense to carrying weapons on school property. —

It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under § 39-17-1309(a)-(d) that the person's behavior was in strict compliance with the requirements of one (1) of the following classifications:

(1) A person hunting during the lawful hunting season on lands owned by any public or private educational institution and designated as open to hunting by the administrator of the educational institution;

(2) A person possessing unloaded hunting weapons while transversing the grounds of any public or private educational institution for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting with the intent to hunt on the public or private lands unless the lands of the educational institution are posted prohibiting entry;

(3) A person possessing guns or knives when conducting or attending “gun and knife shows†and the program has been approved by the administrator of the educational institution; or

(4) A person entering the property for the sole purpose of delivering or picking up passengers and who does not remove, utilize or allow to be removed or utilized any weapon from the vehicle.

In short, as I read it, a church school is a private school and just because you are not having school there at the moment but are instead using it for church services carry is nevertheless prohibited.

Edited March 7, 2008 by Marswolf

[Fallguy]

Some of you state that they go to church in a place that is a church and a school. Do you mean a christian type school that has to do with the church? I meet in a church that rents from a school every sunday until we build a new building. Should I carry? Is the school a school all the time or when students are there? Is it a church on sundays?

Curious.

IMO the law sees a school as a school 24/7

[Guest CornFedGreenHead]

That settles it. Appreciate it. I will keep my gun in the truck. As much as I hate too.

[Guest GregRN]

I think you have a Christian DUTY to be the "strong man". These days, that requires carrying a gun.

In my church there are always several handguns scattered around the auditorium, depending on who is present. It will be up to the thug to guess who has them. One may even be in the pulpit.

[analog_kidd]

Personally, I disarm before going into church. The main reason for me doing so is that I don't want to have someone catch a peek at my gun or holster, ot the outline of it under my shirt. Then it takes their focus off of what they came for and onto my gun.

Now that said, I'm not opposed to carrying in church, and one day when I find the perfect hoster that doesn't profile, I probably will.

[Marswolf]

A gunman could permanently take their mind off of the message.

[Guest Rando]

You calling this guy a fairy?

Oh btw Mars,I have been looking for a P3AT and they seem to be out of stock every where.Even budsgunshop.com is out.Whats the deal,pickle?

Not because of the fanny pack but the sissy colored broom is a dead give-away. I am about to start a new job and have been looking for a small pack of some kind to carry my Kel-tec or Colt pony in as I will be doing a lot of bending and such in public places. I would like to carry in church because you dont know what kind of nut going to come in the door but IT DOESNT SEEM RIGHT!! Does anyone actually know of a pastor that carrys and also does so in church ?

Rando:confused:

[Guest Boomhower]

I would like to carry in church because you dont know what kind of nut going to come in the door but IT DOESNT SEEM RIGHT!!

What doesn't seem right about it, Rando?

Does anyone actually know of a pastor that carrys and also does so in church?

If I'm not mistaken.....We have one on board here with us.

[Guest Boomhower]

Mousegunner.....aren't you a brother of the cloth?

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2744&highlight=church

[Guest GregRN]

I would like to carry in church because you dont know what kind of nut going to come in the door but IT DOESNT SEEM RIGHT!! Does anyone actually know of a pastor that carrys and also does so in church ?

Rando:confused:

I hinted at it before, but I'll elaborate further. There is a handgun in the pulpit at my church, every service, unless we have a guest speaker. Also, near the front door, and usually on each side of the auditorium. What doesn't seem right, is that people have actually fired shots at parishoners during church meetings. Why wouldn't I want the ability to stop them before they got one of my friends or family with a bullet? I still think you have a DUTY to be the "strong man". You can't accomplish that unless you have the ability to take out a threat to your family. But that is my belief. You have to go with what you believe.

[Marswolf]

Good grief Rando. You had a woman try to kill her husband in a church in your area this past week.

That sounds like a pretty good reason that church carry would be right to me.

[Guest Rando]

I didnt know about that until I read it here, I dont get the sorry little paper we have in town. They were going through a divorce seems like a bad one, I'm glad nobody was hurt at the church, but the woman wrecked running from the law and was flown to the hospital I'm not sure how she is doing. I have heard some wild stuff about that church anyway dont know if any of it is true or not so I will not repeat any of it here. I do know of a few that carry at the church we attend and we always seem to have some good size fellows sitting close to the doors. I dont usually carry a bible to church I always look at my wifes or at the screens as they have the verses on them that the pator is reading from, but I may get a bible carryer with a good pocket and carry both from now on:(.

Sad times TGO Sad times, Rando

[Fallguy]

Our local sheriff is also a full-time Baptist preacher. Not sure if he is armed at the pulpit, but wouldn't be surprised if he was.

Although this doesn't go directly to the point of carry at church it is still a very interesting article.

Should Christians Keep and Bear Arms

A Christian Viewpoint

Dr. Marshall C. St. John

The Constitution of the United States of

American contains this sentence:

“A well regulated militia, being necessary to the

security of a free state, the right of the people to

keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.â€

Our Constitution is not part of the Bible, however

it is based on Biblical principles.

For example, the Constitution speaks of the

necessity of a militia for the security of a free

nation. “Militia†does not mean a professional

army. It means the citizens of the nation bearing

arms. It is the teaching of the Bible that citizens

MAY, and often MUST bear arms for the

defense of the nation. For example:

7 And ye shall chase your enemies, and they

shall fall before you by the sword.

8 And five of you shall chase an hundred, and

an hundred of you shall put ten thousand to

flight: and your enemies shall fall before you by

the sword.

9 For I will have respect unto you, and make

you fruitful, and multiply you, and establish my

covenant with you.

(Leviticus 26:7-9)

In order for God's people to accomplish the will

of God, it may sometimes be necessary for them

to bear arms and literally fight. King David

wrote in Psalm 18:34-39...

“He teacheth my hands to war, so that a bow of

steel is broken by mine arms...I have pursued

mine enemies, and overtaken them: neither did I

turn again till they were consumed. I have

wounded them that they were not able to rise:

they are fallen under my feet. For thou hast

girded me with strength unto the battle...â€

LESSONS FROM NEHEMIAH

When Nehemiah was rebuilding the wall around

Jerusalem, it was necessary for him and the

other men to go armed for self-defense.

Nehemiah 4:16-18

“And it came to pass from that time forth, that

the half of my servants wrought in the work,

and the other half of them held both the

spears, the shields, and the bows, and the

habergeons; and the rulers were behind all the

house of Judah. They which builded on the wall,

and they that bare burdens, with those that

laded, every one with one of his hands

wrought in the work, and with the other hand

held a weapon. For the builders, every one

had his sword girded by his side, and so

builded. And he that sounded the trumpet was

by me.â€

Many of the heros of the Bible were men at

arms: Joshua, Gideon, Samson, etc.

lessons from God’s Law

The first five books of the Bible are sometimes

called the “Torah,†which means “The Law.†In

these books we find the Ten Commandments,

and many other laws God gave to His people to

order their lives. In Exodus 22:2-3 we read:

“If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten

that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him.

If the sun be risen upon him, there shall be blood

shed for him; for he should make full restitution;

if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his

theft.â€

In other words, homeowners are allowed by

God’s Law to defend themselves against

burglars who break in at night.

lessons from jesus

In Luke 22:36 Jesus commanded His disciples

to be armed for self-defense.

“Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a

purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and

he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment,

and buy one.â€

Jesus commanded his disciples to buy swords, if

they had none. They said they already had two,

and Jesus said that would be enough. As a band

of a dozen able-bodied men, they were quite

safe from roving bandits, even if every man in

the group was not carrying a weapon. The

application is that Jesus commands us to be

armed for self-defense, but He does not

recommend that we go overboard with our

weapons. Jesus said in another place, “He who

lives by the sword shall die by the sword.â€

Jesus encourages his followers to defend

themselves, but He does not encourage us to

be eager for battle and bloodshed.

Self-defense may be necessary as a last resort,

but violence should not be sought after and

relished. God’s people are supposed to be

peacemakers, not ruffians. Neither are we

allowed to spread the Gospel by means of

violence or military aggression.

LESSONS FROM PAUL

“But if any provide not for his own, and specially

for those of his own house, he hath denied the

faith, and is worse than an infidel.â€

I Timothy 5:8

We must provide food and shelter for our

families. It is also our duty to provide protection

from criminals. The most effective way to do this

is to move your family to a safe neighborhood.

Also, we should make sure our communities

have effective law enforcement officers. But

what would you do if a criminal broke into your

home? Are you prepared to defend your family?

We pray for God to provide for us; but that does

not excuse us from earning money, buying food

and building houses. We pray for God to defend

us from criminals, but that does not excuse us

from taking steps to protect our families.

Preserving Your Right to

Keep and Bear Arms

The importance of preserving your right to keep

and bear arms is illustrated in I Samuel

13:19-22.

“Now there was no smith found throughout all

the land of Israel: for the Philistines said, Lest

the Hebrews make them swords or spears: But

all the Israelites went down to the Philistines, to

sharpen every man his share, and his coulter,

and his ax, and his mattock. Yet they had a file

for the mattocks, and for the coulters, and for the

forks, and for the axes, and to sharpen the

goads. So it came to pass in the day of battle,

that there was neither sword nor spear found in

the hand of any of the people that were with Saul

and Jonathan: but with Saul and with Jonathan

his son was there found.â€

The Philistines conquered and dis-armed the

Israelites. They even took away the means of

weapons production, in order to enslave them.

In order to revolt, the few Israelites who had

weapons attacked some Philistines and took

their weapons. This process continued until

many Israelites had arms. In modern times, It

is impossible to overthrow tyrants and have

a free society unless the citizens have

firearms, and know how to use them.

RIGHTS COME FROM GOD

It is vital for every Christian to realize that all

our rights actually come from God. The

government never gives you rights, but only

recognizes rights you already have, or tries

to take your rights away from you, to

increase its power. It is clearly obvious that

as government grows larger, our liberties are

gradually being taken away.

The second Amendment of the Constitution, the

second right enumerated in the Bill of Rights, is

the right to “keep and bear arms.†As we have

seen from the scriptures quoted above, this right

is rooted in the Bible, because the right to

self-defense, and the obligation to protect the

weak, is rooted in the Bible.

An Objection Answered

Someone may ask: “But what about turning the

other cheek and not resisting evil? Aren’t

Christians supposed to act like that? Aren’t we

supposed to be pacifists?â€

The answer is simple: In those verses Jesus

was telling Christians how to react to minor

insults: a slap on the cheek, the loss of a coat,

and so on. He was not addressing the

Christian’s response to criminal activity or a

tyrannical government. He did that when He

said, “Do unto others as you would have them do

unto you.†and “Love your neighbor as yourself.â€

If we love our neighbors, we will take steps to

keep them safe from criminals. That may mean

that we will personally need to use weapons to

help our neighbors. It also means that we will

support our local police in the apprehension of

criminals. It also means that we will do whatever

we can to make our government one that honors

individual rights and liberties.

Instead of taking vengeance on criminals

personally, we will call on the police to find and

arrest them, and bring them to justice. But

when criminals attack us or our neighbors, and

the police are not present, we will do what it

takes, not just for our own sake, but for the

Christian love we have for our families and

communities. To dis-arm and to allow criminals

to attack us and our neighbors unopposed is to

be negligent about our Christian duty.

Presbyterians thought this out a long time ago.

In our official doctrinal statement, the

Westminster Larger Catechism, Answer # 135

we read:

“The duties required in the sixth commandmentâ€

include “just defence against violence.â€

Self-defense, and that involves keeping and

bearing arms, is not only your privilege as an

American Christian, it is your duty.

Wayside Presbyterian Church

2502 Fairmount Pike

Signal Mountain, TN 37377

www.waysidechurch.org

__________________

Dr. M. St. John

www.waysidechurch.org

[strickj]

There was a pastor from the Jasper area in my HCP class that said he would definitely be carrying during service.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

GUYS... Its not enough to just carry in Church, you and the staff have to have a PLAN to deal with a problem correctly. Our Church is in the midst of putting together such a plan.

[mousegunner]

Odds are one in a million that anything bad will happen. But there's no harm in being prepared. What did Jesus say as He sent the disciples out on missionary work? (Luke 22:36)

[Guest Boomhower]

Odds are one in a million that anything bad will happen. But there's no harm in being prepared. What did Jesus say as He sent the disciples out on missionary work? (Luke 22:36)

http://www.mouseguns.com/sub2000/buyone.jpg

Is that a Kel-Tec carbine you have there preacher man?

[mousegunner]

You betcha! I love my Sub-2000. It's like a mini-AK! I did a lot of research, and made a web page about it, too...

http://www.mouseguns.com/sub2000/sub2000.htm

I don't actually carry it in the pulpit on Sunday mornings. Usually just have my p3at in my pocket. One of our elders sits in the back with his GLOCK 19. If a nut came in and tried to shoot us up, hopefully one of us will be able to make him stop. It will probably never happen. I don't expect it to. No harm in being prepared, just in case. If I EXPECTED trouble, I'd have more than a p3at!

[Guest cdsusong]

I did the big questionable deal myself last night. we went to a high school play that was held at the local college and yes I went heeled. I wore a long tailed shirt to conceal my Kahr CW9 in it's Bianchi holster. You never know in a big crowd like that if some moron will take the gathering as a place to vent some aggression. I just feel that if something were to happen, I want to protect my family and other innocent folks. Does anyone know about carrying in a wal mart or a super market that sells alcohol? what is the law for that? I believe the law is going to change for CCW at bars and such and I don't know if that is a good idea or not. If you mix alcohol and firearms, who knows?