alcohol...carry, but not on person

[Guest midnitelamp]

I betcha if the Officer asks if you have been drinking,he has heard "1 or 2 several times. Tell him no,and he can see the signs?

Also betcha he has you walking a line,touching yer nose,saying the alphabet.

Even if you are released,is one drink worth all that?

[DaveTN]

yes, but I didnt say intoxicated, or drunk.

I just mentioned having 1 drink...below the limit. haha it turned into being intoxicated / drunk / drivking and driving, DUI, etc.

It’s not an issue if the cop doesn’t think you are drinking. If he does he will ask you to blow.

The effects of alcohol start with impaired judgment around .04%. I certainly wouldn’t want to play that game. Lawyers are expensive.

I guess I got off track because of how many times I have heard “Officer I have had one beer.â€

[93civEJ1]

I guess I got off track because of how many times I have heard “Officer I have had one beer.”

take it that ya might be a LEO? lol

[DaveTN]

take it that ya might be a LEO? lol

Not anymore; former Police Officer.

[bigwakes]

If I plan to drink even one drink I leave the weapon at home. It will be up to the LEO to make the call and I don't want to leave my fate in his hands. If there is no weapon in the car, there is no chance for misinterpretation by anybody. I do keep the ASP in the vehicle since That's not addressed in any alcohol legislation yet.

[strickj]

I betcha if the Officer asks if you have been drinking,he has heard "1 or 2 several times. Tell him no,and he can see the signs?

Also betcha he has you walking a line,touching yer nose,saying the alphabet.

Even if you are released,is one drink worth all that?

Bug off with your anti-alcohol campaign.

[JAB]

how did this discussion go from the question of having a glass of wine or 1 beer with a dinner, to DUI and intoxication with a weapon. The question was asking of the normal BA level limits. lol

Because this is the friggin' Bible Belt where some believe Demon Alcohol will possess you body and soul if you allow even a sip past your lips, Prohibition would be alive and well if some folks had it their way and many people don't realize that some of us consider beer as simply a beverage to have with dinner and may have only one before switching to water or Diet Coke. Unfortunately, we have lawmakers who cater to folks who equate having one danged beer with being sloppy drunk. The guys here are simply pointing out that having even one beer could result in your being charged with something. Asinine, yes, but true.

That said, I'm lucky in that my wife also has her HCP. If we go somewhere to eat and I decide that I might want to have a beer I'll simply hand my carry gun over to her - unless she is carrying hers in which case I will put mine in the secured lock box in the car. If I'm having even one, she carries and drives. If she is having a drink, I carry and drive. Works out pretty well.

Edited July 11, 2011 by JAB

[deerslayer]

Because this is the friggin' Bible Belt where Prohibition would be alive and well if some folks had it their way, people don't realize that some of us consider beer as simply a beverage to have with dinner, may have only one before switching to water or Diet Coke and some equate having one danged beer with being sloppy drunk.

One beer or glass of wine can get you a DUI. It doesn't matter if you're "sloppy drunk" or unaffected--the cop decides if you go to jail or not. .08 BAC is only one factor the cop considers. Just because you are not .08 does not mean the cop simply lets you go. Too many people fail to grasp this. I'm with Fallguy--if you are worried about whether or not you should be carrying, you should also be worrying about whether or not you should drive.

[JAB]

One beer or glass of wine can get you a DUI. It doesn't matter if you're "sloppy drunk" or unaffected--the cop decides if you go to jail or not.

Which goes back to the ignorant attitude regarding alcohol, in general, to which I was referring. That 'up to the officer's judgement' thing should not exist. Yes, someone who is driving (or carrying) while drunk should be punished. That said, either you are legally impaired or you are not and there must be some hard and fast, standard measure - such as the .08 BAL. What one person (cop or not) thinks or doesn't think shouldn't make a bit of difference - otherwise everyone isn't being judged by the same measure. I am not disagreeing that what you are suggesting is possible. I am simply saying that the possibility that one beer could get someone arrested because a cop arbitrarily decides to do so is asinine. However, because of lingering Prohibition-era attitudes, it is possible.

Basically, I was also agreeing with Fallguy. Not because I think that having one beer (which is very different than having multiple drinks) and driving a car (or carrying a gun) is such a horrible thing but because I acknowledge the possible, legal ramifications, however ridiculous I believe them to be.

Edited July 12, 2011 by JAB

[Guest midnitelamp]

Bug off with your anti-alcohol campaign.

Bug off with your pro-alcohol campaign.

[DaveTN]

That 'up to the officer's judgement' thing should not exist. Yes, someone who is driving (or carrying) while drunk should be punished. That said, either you are legally impaired or you are not and there must be some hard and fast, standard measure - such as the .08 BAL. What one person (cop or not) thinks or doesn't think shouldn't make a bit of difference - otherwise everyone isn't being judged by the same measure.

We are where we are now on DUI and domestic violence because discretion was taken away from Officers. You sure you want to remove Officers discretion on this? I can assure you it will be below .04% BAC. Everyone is pretty much in agreement that the effects of alcohol on the mind and body start at around .04. Legislators are not going to want to wait until you are legally impaired to say you shouldn’t be carrying.

.08% BAC is not a standard measure and it is not a limit.

.08% is a legal presumption of impairment. As a Cop I could charge people down to .05% with DUI if I had evidence to substantiate it in court.

The law isn’t fair and it isn’t just; and everyone certainly is not treated equally.

[Fallguy]

DaveTN is right on the .08% BAC...it is simply a presumption. Sort of like you are presumed to be in fear if someone breaks into your home. You can be in fear even if it is on the street and you may not be (although rarely) if someone comes into your home.

So basically .08 and above you would have to some how prove you weren't impaired, below .08 and the state has to show you were.

While maybe not the final judgment, like it or not the first judgment on this is going to be the LEOs.

[Oh Shoot]

...Everyone is pretty much in agreement that the effects of alcohol on the mind and body start at around .04. ..

Indeed. .04 is driving under influence for anyone driving a commercial vehicle, at least with a CDL. And CDL is revoked, first instance.

- OS

[DaveTN]

Indeed. .04 is driving under influence for anyone driving a commercial vehicle, at least with a CDL. And CDL is revoked, first instance.

- OS

Yeah… I don’t think they are going to say ….â€At .04 you are too drunk to drive a big rig; but you are probably okay to carry a gun.â€

And if they are forced into legislating a limit you can bet it will have implied consent attached to it.

[deerslayer]

either you are legally impaired or you are not and there must be some hard and fast, standard measure - such as the .08 BAL. What one person (cop or not) thinks or doesn't think shouldn't make a bit of difference - otherwise everyone isn't being judged by the same measure.

Everyone can't be judged by the same measure. A 105 pound 16 year old girl who has never sipped alcohol will be affected differently by one beer than a 275 pound alcoholic would be. Someone with a tolerance for alcohol may in fact not be significantly impaired at .12; on the other hand, a rookie may be blasted at .04. .08 doesn't always tell the whole story. Thus we have the other factors that officers consider.

[Deerbnb]

When I go to dinner with my family and/or friends I sometimes (maybe 1 out of 3 times) have an "adult beverage" (max of 2 away from home) if that is my plan I simply leave it in the car and reholster when leaving to go home or shopping whatever. I certainly do not have any "guilty" feelings that what I am doing is wrong and while I don't proclaim to have seen it all or know it all, my own senses have served me well this far. It would take a pitiful lack of judgement of an LEO to take exception with that. Call my crazy but I guess I give them more credit than that. but you folks have given me some things to think about (as usual).

[DaveTN]

When I go to dinner with my family and/or friends I sometimes (maybe 1 out of 3 times) have an "adult beverage" (max of 2 away from home) if that is my plan I simply leave it in the car and reholster when leaving to go home or shopping whatever. I certainly do not have any "guilty" feelings that what I am doing is wrong and while I don't proclaim to have seen it all or know it all, my own senses have served me well this far. It would take a pitiful lack of judgement of an LEO to take exception with that. Call my crazy but I guess I give them more credit than that. but you folks have given me some things to think about (as usual).

Are you kidding me? It would take a pitiful lack of judgment on the part of a LEO if he was somehow made aware that you were drinking and carrying and didn’t ask you to submit to a breath test. You now have a dilemma. Take a breath test that will be used against you on a carrying while intoxicated charge or refuse and lose your driver’s license on complied consent.

I just don’t believe a responsible person would be drinking while carrying. That includes going out of the restaurant and putting it on.

If you feel the need that strongly to protect yourself and your family with a gun; don’t drink. I don’t want anyone making life and death decisions that may impact me or my family while their mind is clouded with alcohol.

[Fallguy]

Are you kidding me? It would take a pitiful lack of judgment on the part of a LEO if he was somehow made aware that you were drinking and carrying and didn’t ask you to submit to a breath test. You now have a dilemma. Take a breath test that will be used against you on a carrying while intoxicated charge or refuse and lose your driver’s license on complied consent.

I just don’t believe a responsible person would be drinking while carrying. That includes going out of the restaurant and putting it on.

If you feel the need that strongly to protect yourself and your family with a gun; don’t drink. I don’t want anyone making life and death decisions that may impact me or my family while their mind is clouded with alcohol.

He wasn't talking about drinking and carrying, he talked about having had a drink and then carrying. Even if you do become affected by alcohol, it doesn't last forever. The law doesn't say you can't have had a drink and then carry, it just says you can not carry if you are under the influence. If you don't appear to be under the influence there shouldn't be a problem.

[bigwakes]

He wasn't talking about drinking and carrying, he talked about having had a drink and then carrying. Even if you do become affected by alcohol, it doesn't last forever. The law doesn't say you can't have had a drink and then carry, it just says you can not carry if you are under the influence. If you don't appear to be under the influence there shouldn't be a problem.

I'm certain you know the law better than me, but doesn't it say you can't drink while carrying? So you cannot go into a restaurant with a weapon and have even one beer right? Edited July 14, 2011 by bigwakes

[Oh Shoot]

I'm certain you know the law more than me, but doesn't it say you can't drink while carrying? So you cannot go into a restaurant with a weapon and have even one beer right?

Right, but only forbidden in public establishment that sells alcohol for onsite consumption.

But you can drink at home, at a friends, at a picnic, whatever. Then it's a matter of whether you are carrying while intoxicated.

Oddly, you don't automatically lose your permit even if caught dead drunk carrying. But you do if caught having one sip in a bar while carrying. Another of the ironies of TN weapons law.

- OS

[Fallguy]

I'm certain you know the law better than me, but doesn't it say you can't drink while carrying? So you cannot go into a restaurant with a weapon and have even one beer right?

See above

My point was that a drink of alcohol doesn't affect you for the rest of your life....at some point the affects (assuming you consumed that much) do pass, perhaps even within the amount of time it took to consume your dinner.

[Fallguy]

Right, but only forbidden in public establishment that sells alcohol for onsite consumption.

But you can drink at home, at a friends, at a picnic, whatever. Then it's a matter of whether you are carrying while intoxicated.

Oddly, you don't automatically lose your permit even if caught dead drunk carrying. But you do if caught having one sip in a bar while carrying. Another of the ironies of TN weapons law.

- OS

I'm not sure that is entirely correct...

39-17-1321©(2) In addition to the punishment authorized by subdivision ©(1), if the violation is of subsection (a), occurs in an establishment described in subdivision ((1), and the person has a handgun permit issued pursuant to § 39-17-1351, such permit shall be suspended in accordance with § 39-17-1352 for a period of three (3) years

Subsection (a) is about being under the influence, it just uses subsection ((1) to refer to a place that serves alcohol, not refering to the violations in ((1) or ((2) So as I read it the three year suspension is only if you are under the influence and in a place that serves alcohol.

Whole law..

39-17-1321. Possession of handgun while under influence -- Penalty.

(a) Notwithstanding whether a person has a permit issued pursuant to § 39-17-1315 or § 39-17-1351, it is an offense for a person to possess a handgun while under the influence of alcohol or any controlled substance.

( It is an offense for a person to possess a firearm if the person is both:

(1) Within the confines of an establishment open to the public where liquor, wine or other alcoholic beverages, as defined in § 57-3-101(a)(1)(A), or beer, as defined in § 57-6-102(1), are served for consumption on the premises; and

(2) Consuming any alcoholic beverage listed in subdivision ((1).

© (1) A violation of this section is a Class A misdemeanor.

(2) In addition to the punishment authorized by subdivision ©(1), if the violation is of subsection (a), occurs in an establishment described in subdivision ((1), and the person has a handgun permit issued pursuant to § 39-17-1351, such permit shall be suspended in accordance with § 39-17-1352 for a period of three (3) years

.

[bigwakes]

It says very clearly in the establishment AND consuming OR intoxicated. I think OS is right you can have a drink as long as it's not a bar or restaurant and you are not "intoxicated", but again it comes down to the definition of intoxicated. That's gonna be up to the officer at the scene. Most other firearms laws have a defense if you use your weapon for a valid reason. I see no disclaimer here. If you are intoxicated and have a justifiable shooting do you still get a misdemeanor?

[strickj]

Bug off with your pro-alcohol campaign.

I don't think so.

How many threads have you derailed with your blabber regarding booze now?

Edited July 14, 2011 by strickj

[Oh Shoot]

I'm not sure that is entirely correct...

39-17-1321©(2) In addition to the punishment authorized by subdivision ©(1), if the violation is of subsection (a), occurs in an establishment described in subdivision ((1), and the person has a handgun permit issued pursuant to § 39-17-1351, such permit shall be suspended in accordance with § 39-17-1352 for a period of three (3) years

Subsection (a) is about being under the influence, it just uses subsection ((1) to refer to a place that serves alcohol, not refering to the violations in ((1) or ((2) So as I read it the three year suspension is only if you are under the influence and in a place that serves alcohol. ...

Yes, I should have been more precise. You can be caught dead drunk and carrying and not automatically lose your permit, as long as you aren't caught in a restuarant/bar.

It is also true that the exact wording of the statute does not call for your permit to be revoked for simply having a sip in there, assuming you were not also intoxicated. But I'd wager that if the trouble is taken to pop you for having that drink, you are also gonna be accused of intoxication while in there, but possibly not.

Good catch as usual on exact nuance of the wording, FG.

- OS