A different take on stopping power

[daddyo]

Yeah, okay. Whatever.

Hopefully we will both be lying on our death beds a long time from now, getting ready to succumb to old age, and looking back on how we never had to use those guns we were so concerned about carrying.

Why do you carry one then? Or do you?

[JAB]

Why do you carry one then? Or do you?

Ummm...did you miss the part where I said, "Hopefully...?" That means that such is the wished-for outcome. That doesn't mean it is the guaranteed outcome or even necessarily the expected outcome.

Maybe I should simplify:

I don't ever want to be forced to use any weapon on anyone. I also hope that no one else, here, has to do so. In fact, I hope we all reach the end of long and happy lives without the need to do so. That said, regardless of what you or anyone else think, if I find myself in such a situation and am armed only with a .380 I have every confidence that use of said .380 will end with the encounter every bit as 'stopped' as if I had been carrying my 9mm, .357 or any other commonly carried caliber.

How in the heck do you get from that statement that I'm saying there isn't a good reason to carry?

I also hope I don't ever have to use car insurance but that doesn't mean I don't have it or that I see no reason for having it.

[daddyo]

Ummm...did you miss the part where I said, "Hopefully...?" That means that such is the wished-for outcome. That doesn't mean it is the guaranteed outcome or even necessarily the expected outcome.

Maybe I should simplify:

I don't ever want to be forced to use any weapon on anyone. I also hope that no one else, here, has to do so. In fact, I hope we all reach the end of long and happy lives without the need to do so. That said, regardless of what you or anyone else think, if I find myself in such a situation and am armed only with a .380 I have every confidence that use of said .380 will end with the encounter every bit as 'stopped' as if I had been carrying my 9mm, .357 or any other commonly carried caliber.

How in the heck do you get from that statement that I'm saying there isn't a good reason to carry?

I also hope I don't ever have to use car insurance but that doesn't mean I don't have it or that I see no reason for having it.

Are those just talking points or do you really believe what you're saying?

[JAB]

Are those just talking points or do you really believe what you're saying?

Why would I bother posting it if I didn't believe it? Why would I own a .380 and have it in my carry rotation if I didn't believe it would do its job?

That doesn't mean I don't like to 'hedge my bets' and carry something bigger, sometimes.

Now, a question for you:

Why do you and others get so bent out of shape when some folks say that they have decided that X caliber is what they want to carry? No one is saying you can't carry whatever you want. No one even seems to take offense at the idea that you might carry something 'bigger'. So why, then, are you so offended when others say that they feel comfortable carrying X for self defense?

I am reminded of another subject upon which you and I agreed, IIRC - the subject of carrying a BUG. Simply suggest that you might carry a BUG, sometimes, and some folks start telling you how ridiculous that is, etc. Why do they even think it is any of their business what someone else chooses to carry? The same question applies in this thread.

Edited July 20, 2011 by JAB

[daddyo]

Why would I bother posting it if I didn't believe it? Why would I own a .380 and have it in my carry rotation if I didn't believe it would do its job?

That doesn't mean I don't like to 'hedge my bets' and carry something bigger, sometimes.

Now, a question for you:

Why do you and others get so bent out of shape when some folks say that they have decided that X caliber is what they want to carry? No one is saying you can't carry whatever you want. No one even seems to take offense at the idea that you might carry something 'bigger'. So why, then, are you so offended when others say that they feel comfortable carrying X for self defense?

I am reminded of another subject upon which you and I agreed, IIRC - the subject of carrying a BUG. Simply suggest that you might carry a BUG, sometimes, and some folks start telling you how ridiculous that is, etc. Why do they even think it is any of their business what someone else chooses to carry? The same question applies in this thread.

Since when does asking questions constitute being "bent out of shape"? On the contrary, I see people getting bent when someone questions the ability of non-service calibers to adequately provide self-protection based on ballistic science. I've even had someone tell me that "ballistics don't matter". Whatever.

I don't care what you carry. What I do care about is accurate information.

[JAB]

I've even had someone tell me that "ballistics don't matter".

Well, if that is the crux of our debate then we have no debate. I believe that ballistics do matter. Where the difference comes in is we have differing opinions on the level at which the ballistics are 'enough'. I happen to believe that for me, given the area where I live and the most likely threats (of a group of very unlikely threats) I would face, .380 ballistics would be enough to serve me - in a practical application - just as well as a 9mm, etc. That doesn't mean I don't recognize the ballistic differences. I just don't think the differences between .380 ballistics and 9mm ballistics, for instance, are going to be the difference between whether the threat is stopped or not (which is why I believe that if a .380 fails to stop a threat then a 9mm would likely have failed to stop the threat, also.) As I said, before, that doesn't mean I don't like to 'hedge my bets' and carry a larger caliber and/or higher capacity gun and I often do so.

To me, comparing a .380 to 'service calibers' is like comparing a Corvette and a Honda Civic. Of course the Corvette is more powerful but the Civic is just as capable of performing the desired task of getting you to your destination. Of course you'd probably rather drive the Corvette - as would I - but the Civic still has its place and there is nothing wrong with having both. Heck, you might even drive the Civic more than the Corvette for reasons that have nothing to do with horsepower comparisons.

I, too, have my ballistic/caliber limits. I wouldn't carry a .22 Short for SD as long as I had a ballistically superior option that I could safely and competently operate. Same goes for a .22LR handgun. Heck, I own a NAA mini in .22 'Magnum' that I use for a BUG, sometimes (and sometimes when I am being lazy it might be the only thing on me when I am at home) but I wouldn't want to rely on it as a primary carry gun. For that matter, as long as I have a choice, I wouldn't even carry a Kel Tec PMR30 as anything more than an around-the-yard/woods gun I don't care if it does have a 30+1 capacity.

I also think that there are factors that become more and more important as you go down the caliber chain. Ammo selection is one of those factors. For instance, when I carry a .357 for SD against potential attack by human assailants, I am fine with Winchester White Box or Remington UMC 125 grain JHPs from Walmart. I've fired plenty of them, they go 'bang', are accurate and it's a .357 for Pete's sake. When I carry a .38, however, I want premium SD ammo. I concern myself even more with what ammo to carry in my P3AT. Currently, I carry Hydrashoks in it (after testing for reliable function, etc.) specifically because from what I have seen they tend to expand a little but not a lot (probably due to being 'old tech' hps) so that they penetrate more deeply than many .380 loads.

Edited July 21, 2011 by JAB

[daddyo]

As far as .380 vs 9mm goes:

9mm Versus 380 ACP For Self-Defense

[JAB]

Interesting article and thanks for posting the link. As I said, I had no doubt that the 9mm is more powerful. Unlike the author of that piece, however, I still don't believe that puts the .380 out of the game. As I said, before, I'll carry something 'bigger' a lot of the time but won't feel unarmed with a .380. Also, in the interest of 'full disclosure', I've been carrying my 642 more than the P3AT lately when a pocket rocket is desired. This is partly because the .38 +P is likely a little more powerful than the .380. Still, the P3AT does have the advantage of having two more rounds on board plus being faster (a relative term in this case) to reload.

There are reasons other than pure 'horsepower' that go into the decision to carry .380 instead of 9mm in a small auto. One reason I stick with a .380 for a pocket auto is that I just have this nagging concern that .380 is already pushing the design envelope for reliability with such a small pistol (more full disclosure - I am much more a revolver guy and, irrational as it may be, still have trouble fully trusting any semiauto, especially small ones and the only reason I own a small semi, at all, is that they are so much lighter and flatter than wheelguns.) I also have concerns about my ability to present something larger from a pocket draw quickly and effectively. If I am going to carry anything bigger/heavier than the P3AT, I'd not want to pocket carry it and had might as well step on up to my P95. Seriously, I had a small 9mm (a Kel Tec P11) and carried/shot it quite a bit. I tried to convince myself otherwise but the truth is that I never liked it all that much. It was not a pocket gun, for me, and required a belt holster to carry. Eventually, I discovered that I could conceal the P95 (on my build) at least 95% as well as the P11 so it made the P11 extraneous.

Another factor is the controllability issue. My hands are plenty strong (I can fire full-house .357 loads out of a snubbie one-handed, at least with my strong hand, and hit more or less where I am aiming) but I have nearly square palms with relatively short, thick fingers. For some reason, this makes getting a good grip on a smaller pistol a bit difficult (although, like I said, I can grip small revolvers just fine.) The result is that, having shot them side-by-side on more than one occasion, I know that I shot and shoot the P3AT much better than I ever shot the P11. I can only imagine that disparity in control would increase with a 9mm that is even closer in size to the P3AT.

Edited July 21, 2011 by JAB

[Caster]

This back and forth goings on is making me seasick.

[daddyo]

This back and forth goings on is making me seasick.

Does debate always do that to you?

[Caster]

ehhh, I was just being me. No serious - just pokes

[Jonnin]

As far as .380 vs 9mm goes:9mm Versus 380 ACP For Self-Defense

Better than most as he used the same gun for both. But the 380s used are JHP loads, which are known to have penetration problems (many recommend ball ammo or flat nosed solild ammo). He also uses energy which weights velocity over mass. K energy is 1/2 MVV while momentum is just MV. Note that the 9mm has about a 25% advantage in momentum, vs 65% advantage in energy.Clearly the 9mm is more powerful, no doubt about it. But this sort of comparison makes it look to be more than twice as effective. I really do not believe that any more than I buy the paper being discussed in this thread that has the 380 beating most other calibers for effectiveness. Both conclusions are the result of skewed data analysis. I say all that as someone who wants the most in the smallest package. I normally pocket carry a small 40 caliber but there are times when its too big and my 380 is used, and when that happens, I know its weaker but thats the choice, small gun or large caliber, there isnt much middle ground esp if you dislike the DAO guns.Well no matter what I do it will not indent. Sorry about the wall o text. Edited July 21, 2011 by Jonnin

[Guest Roadkill Bill]

Sort of like arguing about whether it hurts more getting by a Toyota or a Buick. Neither hurts as much as a Kenworth 18 wheeler!

Don't know about that. You may not register any pain at all being hit by that Kenworth!