This is why I carry..especailly at night

[Oh Shoot]

...Although not as extreme as the case of robbery just take a look at the off duty Walmart employe in Ft Oglethorpe GA who got into an argument and altercation. During an argument A much younger man physically assaulted the guy and shoved him to the ground. The man claiming to be in fear for his life drew his weapon but did not fire it. ...

You better look at that Walmart incident a little closer. The guy with a gun was a nutcase, have seen no reports that he was more than shoved away by the guy after he perceived an affront to his wife. At the checkout register, for c'sake.

Fort O Walmart Employee Pulls Gun on Customer | lawson, police, say - WTVC NewsChannel 9: Chattanooga News, Weather, Radar, Sports, Lottery

My absolute last resort would be to take someone elses life over less than $20 in my wallet no matter what the law says.

Umm, so at what amount of money would you do it? Never mind, the real point being, who knows how many people have been killed for less than twenty clams. That's the perp's call, not yours, eh? You seem awfully trusting of one committing a felony to your person to stop at just the one.

- OS

Edited July 21, 2011 by OhShoot

[Guest RevScottie]

From the reports on the Walmart incident the man (while angry at someone else) accidentally brushed against another mans wife, husband went ballistic and pushed a much older man to the ground. It was reported that way by multiple news outlets. Assuming those reports are accurate did this man not have the right to defend himself?My point in all of this is just "how scared" do you legally have to be in order to shoot someone? Where is that line at and who determines it? I wouldn't think the court would just take your word for it.

[Oh Shoot]

...My point in all of this is just "how scared" do you legally have to be in order to shoot someone? Where is that line at and who determines it? I wouldn't think the court would just take your word for it.

Man comes up to me on one of my walks and says, "Can I have your wallet?", I'd probably laugh. If he says "Give me your wallet or I'll kill you.", the gun comes out. If I've seen a weapon, and I can, the bullet comes out of the gun.

Only pushed to the ground (even if he was) by one person, in public? Nope.

"Pushed to the ground" by two or more aggressors who seem bent on more, the gun comes out.

Hit once with a fist? Nope. Hit once with something more damaging? Gun comes out at minimum.

Getting pummeled by two aggressors, or even one at my age that I couldn't handle, gun (or knife) comes out.

All these hypothetical scenarios seem relatively simple to me, comes pretty much down to common sense, and I think 95% of HCP carriers would make the correct decisions.

If you think you'll need the time to play lawyer in your head at a moment of real danger, I'd opine you have enough doubt in your ability, resolve, or overall decision making to preclude carrying a deadly weapon at all.

- OS

[strickj]

From the reports on the Walmart incident the man (while angry at someone else) accidentally brushed against another mans wife, husband went ballistic and pushed a much older man to the ground. It was reported that way by multiple news outlets. Assuming those reports are accurate did this man not have the right to defend himself?My point in all of this is just "how scared" do you legally have to be in order to shoot someone? Where is that line at and who determines it? I wouldn't think the court would just take your word for it.

the reports I read indicated the older man was the primary aggressor.

He was angry at a cashier for overcharging him. He rushed to the produce section to retrieve a sign and in the process, bumped/shoved/brushed/whatever a woman standing in his way. That's when her husband shoved him.

That story is not really a good one to evidence your concerns, regardless of who the aggressor was. A robbery is a bit different then a mutual scuffle.

I do agree with you about $20 not being worth killing someone over, though. And that's why I choose to carry a gun. I'm not going to let some crack head kill me over $20. YMMV

Edited July 21, 2011 by strickj

[Guest RevScottie]

"Man comes up to me on one of my walks and says, "Can I have your wallet?", I'd probably laugh. If he says "Give me your wallet or I'll kill you.", the gun comes out. If I've seen a weapon, and I can, the bullet comes out of the gun."

OS that is a great example and I agree with what you are saying. What I see many people saying is that they feel you are justified in shooting someone at the second stage you mention because in their mind they fear that the assailant has a weapon even though one has not been displayed. That is where I say there is a very real possibility of you going to court. If indeed you do go to court the jury will not be made up entirely of common sensed HCP holders. You may very well be tried by jurors who do not even believe you have the right to own a gun much less the right to shoot an unarmed man out of fear. I see a lot of people who seem to think that just because they are in fear it gives them some kind of automatic pass to shoot someone. In reality the real emotion at work is anger and if you are going to carry a weapon you need to realize the difference and know how to handle the situation before you are faced with it.

[Punisher84]

"Man comes up to me on one of my walks and says, "Can I have your wallet?", I'd probably laugh. If he says "Give me your wallet or I'll kill you.", the gun comes out. If I've seen a weapon, and I can, the bullet comes out of the gun."

OS that is a great example and I agree with what you are saying. What I see many people saying is that they feel you are justified in shooting someone at the second stage you mention because in their mind they fear that the assailant has a weapon even though one has not been displayed. That is where I say there is a very real possibility of you going to court. If indeed you do go to court the jury will not be made up entirely of common sensed HCP holders. You may very well be tried by jurors who do not even believe you have the right to own a gun much less the right to shoot an unarmed man out of fear. I see a lot of people who seem to think that just because they are in fear it gives them some kind of automatic pass to shoot someone. In reality the real emotion at work is anger and if you are going to carry a weapon you need to realize the difference and know how to handle the situation before you are faced with it.

I read an article once where Massad Ayoob said something to the effect of "If you spend all your time worrying about what a jury may think, you'll be dead before you get the chance to find out." I think your fear of court is greater than your fear of death or injury.

[Guest RevScottie]

I read an article once where Massad Ayoob said something to the effect of "If you spend all your time worrying about what a jury may think, you'll be dead before you get the chance to find out." I think your fear of court is greater than your fear of death or injury.

Ayoob also talks a lot about the likeleyhood that even if you are involved in a justified shooting you should accept that one of the consequences will likely be you have to defend yourself in court costing you tens of thousands of dollars and potentially ruining your life for a period of several years. There have actually been people who decided not to carry after taking his courses because of those fears. In his book the Gravest of Extremes he says something tomthe effect that the only time you ever fire your weapon is when there is absolutely no other course of action and it is a situation of kill or be killed.

[Oh Shoot]

....In his book the Gravest of Extremes he says something tomthe effect that the only time you ever fire your weapon is when there is absolutely no other course of action and it is a situation of kill or be killed.

Book is 30 years old. Hell, I don't think there was a state in the union you could even legally carry as a normal citizen when he wrote it.

Much has changed with self defense law since then regarding use of deadly force, requirement to retreat, castle doctrine, personal liability, etc.

You can even shoot thieves in Texas, but not open carry.

- OS

[Punisher84]

Book is 30 years old. Hell, I don't think there was a state in the union you could even legally carry as a normal citizen when he wrote it.

Much has changed with self defense law since then regarding use of deadly force, requirement to retreat, castle doctrine, personal liability, etc.

You can even shoot thieves in Texas, but not open carry.

- OS

+1. I've met Ayoob and talked to him at a gun writer's conference. Attitudes have changed since the 80's.

Scottie I'm not trying to change your mind on what your line in the sand is. I just think you are overly paranoid about justification.

[Guest RevScottie]

Punisher I'm not trying to change anyones mind either just presenting a topic for discussion. Just curious as to what others thoughts are on the subject. Don't be to quick to assume my line in the sand is any different from yours just because I enjoy a little friendly debate . As far as Ayoob goes I think he overly emphasizes the potential of litigation to this day because of his experious as an expert witness in the courtroom. If you read any of his recent material he says not to post what you would do in a shooting incident on the Internet because a prosecutor will find it and use it against you.