This is why I carry..especailly at night

[peejman]

Attempting to draw when someone already has a gun on you is stupid. Don't kid yourself, you're not that fast. In this particular case, the guy entering the store had no situational awareness. If they'll take the <$20 I normally have in my wallet and go on their merry way... they can have it. I do agree to drop/toss the wallet and put some distance between you immediately. Anything to get away unharmed.

[gnmwilliams]

Attempting to draw when someone already has a gun on you is stupid. Don't kid yourself, you're not that fast. In this particular case, the guy entering the store had no situational awareness. If they'll take the <$20 I normally have in my wallet and go on their merry way... they can have it. I do agree to drop/toss the wallet and put some distance between you immediately. Anything to get away unharmed.

What's to say they won't shoot you anyway? You just wasted twenty bucks. http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/handgun-carry-self-defense/58461-people-who-say-just-give-them-what-they-want.html

[Caster]

Attempting to draw when someone already has a gun on you is stupid. Don't kid yourself, you're not that fast. In this particular case, the guy entering the store had no situational awareness. If they'll take the <$20 I normally have in my wallet and go on their merry way... they can have it. I do agree to drop/toss the wallet and put some distance between you immediately. Anything to get away unharmed.

If you are that fast and they get it on camera (they would in a Taco bell) I can see some jack leg court trying you the same way they try a special forces or professional fighter. He was a highly trained individual....blah, blah.

[gnmwilliams]

If you are that fast and they get it on camera (they would in a Taco bell) I can see some jack leg court trying you the same way they try a special forces or professional fighter. He was a highly trained individual....blah, blah.

I get what you're sayin. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm not trying to be fast or trying to beat him to the draw. But I can at least give them something to worry about (me firing back) and not let them get in a cheap shot with me standing there with a surprised look on my face. In my book, as soon as you point a deadly weapon at me, I have no idea and no responsibility to know if you intend to ever "use" it. Once you become a threat to me, you've already passed the point of no return. I can't guarantee you're not going to harm me, whether I comply or not, so my only option is to try to permenantly end the threat you are posing.

Edited July 12, 2011 by gnmwilliams

[peejman]

What's to say they won't shoot you anyway? You just wasted twenty bucks. http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/handgun-carry-self-defense/58461-people-who-say-just-give-them-what-they-want.html

I suspect the perp in a home invasion will have a very different attitude. The guy who walked in is purely a crime of opportunity. The perp was on his way out.

[chances R]

If you are that fast and they get it on camera (they would in a Taco bell) I can see some jack leg court trying you the same way they try a special forces or professional fighter. He was a highly trained individual....blah, blah.

That's OK with me....at least it is now on my terms. It is just plain rude to point a gun at someone, and I can't stand rudeness.........

[Ramjo]

Attempting to draw when someone already has a gun on you is stupid. Don't kid yourself, you're not that fast. In this particular case, the guy entering the store had no situational awareness. If they'll take the <$20 I normally have in my wallet and go on their merry way... they can have it. I do agree to drop/toss the wallet and put some distance between you immediately. Anything to get away unharmed.

That is of course assuming he don't throw a hissy and "bust a cap in yo ass" for making him bend over to get your wallet!

[Ramjo]

In my book, as soon as you point a deadly weapon at me, I have no idea and no responsibility to know if you intend to ever "use" it. Once you become a threat to me, you've already passed the point of no return. I can't guarantee you're not going to harm me, whether I comply or not, so my only option is to try to permenantly end the threat you are posing.

I like the sound of that. I would buy that in court if I were a juror.

[Guest grimel]

If you are that fast and they get it on camera (they would in a Taco bell) I can see some jack leg court trying you the same way they try a special forces or professional fighter. He was a highly trained individual....blah, blah.

A retired USMC NCO did just that (fumbled his wallet then drilled the BG with a 1911 and then drilled the other BG). Nothing happened to him.

Besides, that, if you think an anti-gun DA or shark attorney won't have your training background before the court date you are dreaming. If you shoot competitively might as well count on your classification being brought up.

As for drawing, if you haven't tried it on a timer (both spots, drawn pistol and drawing from concealment) you don't know if it's stupid or not. Even better, get two airsoft guns and game it with your friends. Drop the wallet, move off line, draw, and shoot. See who wins the most. See WHEN you need to be breaking shots to win vs the hooligan.

Edited July 18, 2011 by grimel

[gl19gobang]

I carry at night because im not awake during the day.

[True Grit]

Are you really going to draw on someone pointing a firearm at you? ....seriously?

[Punisher84]

Are you really going to draw on someone pointing a firearm at you? ....seriously?

Yup. That story about the young man that was posted? That was a good friend of mine. Trained with him for years. It's not impossible to draw. Action is quicker than reaction. If you get an opportunity, seize it.

In my opinion, the only people who advocate not drawing in that situation are people who:

A. Are too trusting of criminals. Or

B. Lack training and the ability to keep their head under stress.

[Guest RevScottie]

What type o fsituation would allow you to legally draw your weapon if someone hadn’t already shown theirs? What constitutes being in reasonable fear of your life other than someone already pointing a weapon at you? What if they just threaten you but display no weapon? It seems to me that the way our laws are written the only way you are going to be in the clear is if you defend yourself while already being at a disadvantage with a weapon pointed at you?

Edited July 19, 2011 by RevScottie

[Punisher84]

What type o fsituation would allow you to legally draw your weapon if someone hadn’t already shown theirs? What constitutes being in reasonable fear of your life other than someone already pointing a weapon at you? What if they just threaten you but display no weapon? It seems to me that the way our laws are written the only way you are going to be in the clear is if you defend yourself while already being at a disadvantage with a weapon pointed at you?

There are different situations, but you'll be opening up a whole new can of worms there. I see your point though. Most commonly, you will have seen a weapon before you feel the need to pull your own. How people fail to realize that is beyond me.

The more I've been around people in the firearms training world, the more I think people just carry because they want to have a gun. They don't really think about the situations they might realistically find themselves in. I dont know if they think they'll get that perfect scenario or if they are just terrified because some overly cautious instructor told them they'll die if they try to draw. People draw and fire against drawn weapons all the time. Police and civilians both.

Edited July 19, 2011 by Punisher84

[Caster]

A retired USMC NCO did just that (fumbled his wallet then drilled the BG with a 1911 and then drilled the other BG). Nothing happened to him.

Besides, that, if you think an anti-gun DA or shark attorney won't have your training background before the court date you are dreaming. If you shoot competitively might as well count on your classification being brought up.

As for drawing, if you haven't tried it on a timer (both spots, drawn pistol and drawing from concealment) you don't know if it's stupid or not. Even better, get two airsoft guns and game it with your friends. Drop the wallet, move off line, draw, and shoot. See who wins the most. See WHEN you need to be breaking shots to win vs the hooligan.

I've thought about that before. The only thing I can think of to say would be something to the effect of, "Would you rather me be an untrained fool walking about with a loaded weapon? Proper training equals a larger margin of safety does it not?"

That probably won't work though being as that statement is laced with common sense. We all know there is a zero tolerance policy for common sense in the judicial system.

[JAB]

There are different situations, but you'll be opening up a whole new can of worms there. I see your point though. Most commonly, you will have seen a weapon before you feel the need to pull your own. How people fail to realize that is beyond me.

The more I've been around people in the firearms training world, the more I think people just carry because they want to have a gun. They don't really think about the situations they might realistically find themselves in. I dont know if they think they'll get that perfect scenario or if they are just terrified because some overly cautious instructor told them they'll die if they try to draw. People draw and fire against drawn weapons all the time. Police and civilians both.

Yeah, bottom line is that if the assailant hasn't shown himself to be armed and I don't believe the guy is really capable of harming me and is, in fact, going to harm me then he isn't getting my wallet. If I do believe he is really going to harm me or one of my loved ones (i.e. presents a reasonable threat of death or serious, bodily injury) then what do I have to lose by at least making an attempt to defend? That is, of course, a general statement made from the comfort of not having a gun pointed at me and might vary depending on the specific situation but it reflects my overall mindset.

Years ago, some of my family and I went to Chicago to visit one of my paternal great-uncles. His son, my second cousin, showed me a scar on his cheek and one on his upper palate, inside his mouth. He was just walking down the street one day when two guys who were walking the other direction stopped and one asked him for a smoke. Well, he gave the guy a smoke and they all kept going their respective directions - except the two guys turned around and came up behind him. One of them pulled a knife and demanded his wallet. He handed it over. However, he made it a habit to carry as little cash as possible so only had a couple of bucks on him. Well, the one with the knife looked in the wallet and said something on the order of, "You know, it's a damned shame I'm going to have to kill you for a lousy two bucks." At that point, he moved to stab my cousin and my cousin grabbed his arm. They were wrestling around over the knife (all the while, the knife-wielder's accomplice was yelling for his buddy just to let my cousin go and come on and get the hell out of there.) Finally, my cousin realized that he was going to have to do something else to get away. Problem was that he is left handed so it was his dominant hand he was using to hold the wrist of his assailant's knife-wielding hand. He made the decision to let go, hit the guy as hard as he could and try to use the time when the scumbag was distracted to get away. So, he let go of the guy's hand, punched the guy and got stabbed in the face - through his cheek and up into the roof of his mouth - for his troubles. At that point, the other scumbag convinced the knife-wielder (who probably thought he had just murdered my cousin) to get out of there. Had my cousin lived where he could legally carry and had he been carrying even a pocket pistol (which might actually be the easiest thing to deploy in such a situation after feigning going for your wallet), I expect he wouldn't have been sporting those scars.

Now, Tennessee is not Chicago but my point is that despite the fact that my cousin cooperated fully and gave the scum what they demanded, the knife-wielder was still going to kill him and my cousin still ended up getting stabbed in the face. That is what comes to my mind when someone says, "But what if they just want your wallet and would then leave you alone?" Of course, my second thought is, "So? What the hell right do they have to my wallet, much less to threaten my life to get it?"

Edited July 19, 2011 by JAB

[UncleJak]

If giving up my wallet would guarantee I'd be left alone, fine. However,too many times victims comply only to be shot, stabbed, etc... I ain't giving anything on the word of a crook...

[Guest grimel]

I've thought about that before. The only thing I can think of to say would be something to the effect of, "Would you rather me be an untrained fool walking about with a loaded weapon? Proper training equals a larger margin of safety does it not?"

That probably won't work though being as that statement is laced with common sense. We all know there is a zero tolerance policy for common sense in the judicial system.

Your first mistake is thinking of something to say. That is your lawyer's job! Let him do the talking for you. If you are going to trial hopefully your lawyer has discussed and helped you formulate better responses to likely questions.

[Guest grimel]

What type o fsituation would allow you to legally draw your weapon if someone hadn’t already shown theirs?

Didn't they cover this in your HCP class? The easy one being these wilding gang attacks. Multiple hooligans vs you. Disparity is size/age. Female vs male. Disabled/injured (recovering from knee/shoulder/hip/back surgery).

What constitutes being in reasonable fear of your life other than someone already pointing a weapon at you? What if they just threaten you but display no weapon? It seems to me that the way our laws are written the only way you are going to be in the clear is if you defend yourself while already being at a disadvantage with a weapon pointed at you?

Why does everyone leave out the other half of when lethal force is justified? If you are in reasonable fear of grievous body harm.

Edited July 20, 2011 by grimel

[Guest RevScottie]

What constitutes reasonable fear of grievous bodily harm? I don't think being asked to surrender my wallet meets that criteria no matter the age nor number of individuals if no other threat is made nor weapon displayed. I still say that if one or multiple people walk up an say "this is a hold up, give me your money" you will be on very thin legal ice if you shoot them especially if they are found to be unarmed.

[bajabuc]

if you shoot...no matter what happens to you afterwards...they're not going to be robbing (mugging)(assaulting)(murdering) the next guy. My dead brother in law told that to a cop who was setting up a buy. "No matter what happens to me afterwards...you'll be dead."

[peejman]

I don't mean to suggest you should go down without a fight. By all means, fight. I sure as hell would. Just because they've got a gun drawn doesn't mean they know how to use it. I'm sure we've all seen folks who do well to hit a stationary target that's within arm's reach, much less a moving target 15 ft away.

However in this particular case, the perp was headed out the door when this guy blunders in. I bet the perp was just as surprised as the guy he robbed. The 2nd guy totally unaware and simply a crime of opportunity. If he'd been 20 seconds later, all he would've seen is stunned employees.

[chances R]

....... I don't think being asked to surrender my wallet meets that criteria no matter the age nor number of individuals if no other threat is made nor weapon displayed.....

Kidding, right? But, if that is the case, I certainly wouldn't mind drawing my weapon and say "not today, thank you". Then the next move is his as I slowly step away. If he moves forward in an aggressive fashion, I am fearing bodily harm and will shoot.

[Punisher84]

What constitutes reasonable fear of grievous bodily harm? I don't think being asked to surrender my wallet meets that criteria no matter the age nor number of individuals if no other threat is made nor weapon displayed. I still say that if one or multiple people walk up an say "this is a hold up, give me your money" you will be on very thin legal ice if you shoot them especially if they are found to be unarmed.

I think you need a better understanding of the law.

[Guest RevScottie]

I think you need a better understanding of the law.

My absolute last resort would be to take someone elses life over less than $20 in my wallet no matter what the law says. I also believe if you take an unarmed mans life you are going to spend a good part of your life trying to prove your innocence in the judicial system. Although not as extreme as the case of robbery just take a look at the off duty Walmart employe in Ft Oglethorpe GA who got into an argument and altercation. During an argument A much younger man physically assaulted the guy and shoved him to the ground. The man claiming to be in fear for his life drew his weapon but did not fire it. This matches the scenarios given here, elderly man assaulted by much younger man and drew his weapon out of fear. From the news report: Lawson*now faced aggravated assault, simple battery, child cruelty and reckless conduct charges.* I'm just saying no matter what your understanding of the law is it doesn't mean you won't find yourself facing serious charges in court.