What's considered a good grouping?

[MrBrian]

I have a glock 19 a glock 26 and a colt 1911 that I shoot regularly. I was wondering what would be a good group and what would be an excellent group? I shoot at 30 feet 45 feet and 75 feet. Just wondering at what size groups I should be shooting for.

[Guest Bronker]

Here's a crude measurement for you:

Go to your cupboard and get a medium size paper plate (9"-10") and place it directly over your chest, centered, and below your sterno-clavicular notch.

If you can hit that sized 'area' at any distance, then you have 'adequate' groupings. Try it, it's harder than you'd think.

Plus, why are you shooting at such distances? For fun? That's cool. But if you are concerned about accuracy and ability in a typical self-defense situation (is there such a thing?), then shoot at that plate at 7-10 yards. If you can tap that plate, you are G2G.

Just my thought.

[Dolomite_supafly]

And I would say 7-10 yards is even stretching it a bit in most shootings not involving LE. Most LE shootings I have read about or watched the video from have been under 10 yards. Most civillian shootings are going to be much more up close and personal.

Dolomite

[TGO David]

Accuracy comes in two flavors, as far as I'm concerned:

1. Combat accuracy

2. Precision

If you are concerned about being able to defend yourself in a self-defense situation, #1 is what you need to be focusing on. Combat accuracy is the ability to put rounds on target as quickly as possible into an area that will do the most damage. It does not allow you to miss, but it does allow you to say that a four inch group, center of mass, with all rounds impacting target is sufficient for the task at hand.

Ideally you will get to the point where you are putting most (all) of your rounds into a 2-inch or smaller group with reasonably quickness. If you can do that under little or no stress, then you should be fine should you ever be called upon to do the same under immense stress. Groups tend to get wider under the influence of adrenaline and in less than ideal conditions.

If you are concerned about the ability to shoot the ass off of a gnat at 500 yards, then #2 is your poison and may you enjoy yourself tremendously. I find that sort of shooting intriguing and agree that it obviously has its place in a person's tool bag, but it's not where I focus my time and energy.

[Jonnin]

I have a glock 19 a glock 26 and a colt 1911 that I shoot regularly. I was wondering what would be a good group and what would be an excellent group? I shoot at 30 feet 45 feet and 75 feet. Just wondering at what size groups I should be shooting for.

It depends on the specific guns and ammo used too much to say. My 1911 can put all the shots in under a 1 inch group at 25 yards (Not me, the gun in a rest can do that. I have a ways to go!) with some ammo that it likes. Some 1911s could be throwing out a 2-3 inch group at that range if the barrel is worn or the bushing is loose or whatever. Glocks are more consistent (its a single brand out of the box and all made the same, etc) and I would expect at 25 yards you could make a 2-3 inch group if you are an excellent marksman.

My advice is to put the gun in a rest and shoot 10 shots at the different ranges. That is what the *gun* is capable of with the ammo you are using. Once you see that, an excellent group is around 1-2 inches over the gun's group and a good group is 3-4 inches off the gun's group.

Remember that the glock is probably going to be more difficult to tighten the groups on, the trigger, grip, sight radius, fixed sights and so forth are not set up for a long range target gun and those issues make a human shooter (as opposed to the rest mounted gun) open up the groups a bit or be off center a bit.

I am assuming you shoot slowly for accuracy here. If you are blasting away for defense practice, group size is not really discussed, it becomes "hits" and "misses".

[mav]

One thing I would like to point out first is be careful when taking advice from people on the internet and even this forum. Don't take everything as being the truth. I have read a bunch of claims in regards to shooting accuracy that appear almost miraculous. Some of the claims would make Rob Leatham seem like an amateur.

I think TGODavid's post is pretty much spot on in regards to situational accuracy. I used to shoot for accuracy everytime I went to the range. Everything would be slow fire and trying to make the smallest groups I can. Now, I am more along the lines of defensive type shooting where I am still trying to be accurate, but I am shooting very fast, but controlled.

For example, one exercise I do is front sight watching. I load up a mag with ten rounds and put the target around 7-10 yards down range. I start shooting at a pace of 3-4 seconds for the 10 rounds. What I am looking for in this exercise is the ability to keep my focus on the front sight under recoil because I am still shooting for accuracy. I can put all of the shots within the x and 10 ring. If I feel really good, which is extremely rare, I have been able to put all within the x-ring using my G34. When I transition to the head, my grouping isn't as good, but all of the rounds find their mark, which in the real world is good enough.

In terms of slow fire accuracy, I am not fantastic, but I am decent. There are a bunch of this forum that can shoot way better than me. There are also some that can BS you to death too.

[timcalhoun]

Accuracy comes in two flavors, as far as I'm concerned:

1. Combat accuracy

2. Precision

+1

I think both are important to know how to do. Also, it's important to understand that both types use completely different methods of trigger control. If you are carrying for SD then, and want to practice for that purpose, then precision shooting trigger control is really useless.

Shooting at different ranges (out to at least 25yds) is very useful in both disciplines though. The difference is you are concentrating on different results. Precision shooting is obvious what you are trying to achieve. But for practical pistol skills you are trying to keep all your shots inside the center of mass (A zone or 0 zone of a USPSA or IDPA target) as quickly as you can. Shooting at longer distances is an essential tool for getting faster and more accurate. Think of it as honing a knife sharp enough or razor sharp. If you can draw and put 6 rounds in the A zone at 25 yards in under 4 seconds think what you can do at 7.

[peejman]

For example, one exercise I do is front sight watching. I load up a mag with ten rounds and put the target around 7-10 yards down range. I start shooting at a pace of 3-4 seconds for the 10 rounds. What I am looking for in this exercise is the ability to keep my focus on the front sight under recoil because I am still shooting for accuracy. I can put all of the shots within the x and 10 ring. If I feel really good, which is extremely rare, I have been able to put all within the x-ring using my G34. When I transition to the head, my grouping isn't as good, but all of the rounds find their mark, which in the real world is good enough.

Dayum, wish I could do that. I'm prolly 7-ring at best shooting that fast.

As others have said, combat accuracy or bullseye shooting? The above is excellent combat accuracy IMO. I work with a bullseye shooter who shoots 3" groups at 100 yds off a rest with a customized .22 target pistol. Fundamentals remain the same for both, but execution is quite different.

[MrBrian]

Awesome insights guys

[mav]

Dayum, wish I could do that. I'm prolly 7-ring at best shooting that fast.

I am not really doing a combat drill since I am not drawing from a holster. If I incorporate drawing from a holster, then the results aren't as good; I defintely get into the 9-ring, which is still okay from my viewpoint. I only started doing this exercise to learn how to shoot faster and be able to maintain a sight picture.

My weakness is one hand shooting and double taps. I absolutely suck at both. For some reason or another I anticipate at times when performing double taps. I doubt I will ever get any better at these since I never practice them. I have seen Jonnin shoot one-handed at 15 yards. He is way better at it than me.

[Kano]

Precision shooting

Even polymers are accurate at 25 yards ..

I have done 1911 type groups with my FNP-45 ... HK-45 and XDM-45 at 25 yards.

[Caster]

Accuracy comes in two flavors, as far as I'm concerned:

1. Combat accuracy

2. Precision

If you are concerned about being able to defend yourself in a self-defense situation, #1 is what you need to be focusing on. Combat accuracy is the ability to put rounds on target as quickly as possible into an area that will do the most damage. It does not allow you to miss, but it does allow you to say that a four inch group, center of mass, with all rounds impacting target is sufficient for the task at hand.

Ideally you will get to the point where you are putting most (all) of your rounds into a 2-inch or smaller group with reasonably quickness. If you can do that under little or no stress, then you should be fine should you ever be called upon to do the same under immense stress. Groups tend to get wider under the influence of adrenaline and in less than ideal conditions.

^^^+1 I could care less about the pursuit of the clover leaf or one holer. Dead is dead, and "Minute of beating heart" accuracy is sufficient for anything be it hunting or personal defense. 2 inches under stress....I'll probably never make it, but 4 inches is exactly what i go for. Hitting a 4 inch circle from 7-250 yards is all I care about. (I can't find a place to shoot further)

[mav]

Well, it has been a little over a month since I have been to the range, but I managed to go today after I got off from work. Just out of curiosity, I tried that front sight exercise (around 8 yards) I mentioned in my previous post. The results weren't quite as good as what I had previously stated. Out of sixty rounds, roughly half were within the x-ring, around 40% were within the 10-ring, and I had 6 shots that hit in the 9-ring.

When I transitioned to the head, I had 37 hits and 3 shavers (slight misses) on the left side of the face. The results might not be as good as what I may normally do, but I was still pleased considering it has been a little over a month since I was at the range. If I don't shoot every week, I do notice a drop in my performance. But since I don't do competition (I'm not really good enough for that), it doesn't really matter. What I did today is good enough to help me out of bad situation should one ever come.

[Warbird]

A good grouping to shoot for is a fist sized group from 3 to 10 yards with increasing speed. I do not practice shooting into rings. I practice shooting in the surgical triangle. The only time I deviate from that is moving from body to head and dot drills.

For longer range shooting I will try and hit 2 shots in rapid sccession into a paperplate sized area from 25 yards. I have developed arthtritis in my hands and am too shaky to spend too much time at those longer ranges. I was a bullseye shooter quite a few years ago. The more often you practice the better you will become, IF you have the grip, stance and trigger control down. After you have achieved success in groupings then try and artificially induce stress to be more proficient under negative situations.

[mav]

I practice shooting in the surgical triangle.

What is a surgical triangle?

The only targets we have at our range are the standard targets and the zombie crap.

[Warbird]

What is a surgical triangle?

The only targets we have at our range are the standard targets and the zombie crap.

Mav you can make your own surgical triangle target with a regular B27 target and some masking tape. The surgical triangle is what is referred to as the kill shot zone, or the most likely to stop them in their tracks shot. The bottom wide part of the triangle would along the bottom of the lungs , past the heart, and then the point of the triangle would be around the adams apple of the throat. I practice these shots most often, as in a threat situation that is where I want to hit my opponent. You will do under stress what you practice. No matter what you do in training remember that is what you will do when the stress is on.

Where is the 10 ring on a B27 target? It would be a gut shot. Likely to be a horribly painful wound, but often does not stop them in their tracks. so shoot for the area most likely to stop the threat immediately. Include brain shot in there as well.

If in rapid fire you can keep your grouping fist sized, you will be doing well. Get the groupings right, then work on the speed. Of course if at all possible it should be practiced with the complete motion, including your draw.

Edited July 9, 2011 by Warbird

[wjh2657]

I am with you Bronker. I use 5" targets that show hits (splatter) at 10 ,15, and 21 feet. 10' is hip shooting low, below eye line of sight. 15' is one hand, pointshooting at shoulder height and 21 ' is two handed using "quicksight" picture.

I shoot daily with a S&W 317 (.22 LR) and once a week with my 642 (.38 spcl.)

Shooting a full race service sized pistol slowly at 25 Yards at a paper target and shooting a BG rushing you in the dark of a room or parking lot is two different events entirely. I fired team match forover 30 years and I was and I am still pretty good at that range with a target/service weapon. But ripping a snubby out of my pocket and stopping an assailant up close is where I am at now.

The secret here, as has been stated already, is to put max metal on target, fast and in the area that hurts. Small groups are not desirable. If you pick the wrong area of the target, you will just be sending more lead into an ineffective wound area. A 4-5" group is far more desirable as it will hit several critical areas.

Edited July 9, 2011 by wjh2657

[Guest justluck]

In response to the OP, everything inside an 8" circle at 15 yds is good to me - inside 6" is better. My SR9c is very capable of putting everything inside 4" at 15 yds - it's just that I'm not.

[chances R]

I think most are in agreement that for SD purpose, grouping as in target shooting has little relevance. In fact, if you can get a tight group on a COM target, you should probably increase your speed. Two shots together generally are less effective in stoppage than if they were spread out, damaging more and different organs and soft tissue. Don't buy into single shot stoppage. Many reports show multiple hit adversaries that continue to fight, and kill, with otherwise lethal hits. I would say work on the combination of accuracy first, then increase your speed at normal 'confrontational' distances.

[JAB]

Well, it has been a little over a month since I have been to the range, but I managed to go today after I got off from work. Just out of curiosity, I tried that front sight exercise (around 8 yards) I mentioned in my previous post. The results weren't quite as good as what I had previously stated. Out of sixty rounds, roughly half were within the x-ring, around 40% were within the 10-ring, and I had 6 shots that hit in the 9-ring.

When I transitioned to the head, I had 37 hits and 3 shavers (slight misses) on the left side of the face. The results might not be as good as what I may normally do, but I was still pleased considering it has been a little over a month since I was at the range. If I don't shoot every week, I do notice a drop in my performance. But since I don't do competition (I'm not really good enough for that), it doesn't really matter. What I did today is good enough to help me out of bad situation should one ever come.

A couple of weeks ago I was shooting my P3AT at the range. I suck shooting it with my weak hand only but decided I wanted to compare my results shooting at about 21 feet from both a two-handed grip and a strong-hand only grip. What I found was odd. Shooting two-handed I was using the miniscule sights and aiming pretty carefully although still shooting pretty quickly (I guess it was sort of a 'flash-sight' picture.) Shooting one-handed, I did more of a rapid fire point shooting/front sight shooting thing (which I haven't done much and need to practice more.) The strange results? The one-handed, point-shooting, rapid fire 'group' mingled right in with the two-handed, somewhat aimed group - with shots from the latter falling right next to shots from the former. I was aiming more for heart/lung shots than for the X ring and all shots hit in the 'chest' and 'upper torso' area of a B27 with both groups being about 4-5 inches. In other words, with the P3AT and at fairly close range, I did just as well rapid-fire point-shooting as I did two handed and aiming with both the front and rear sights. Of course, this is probably more a sign that I shot poorly with a two-handed, aimed grip than that I did well one-handed with point-shooting. I also imagine my results would be different with some of my other handguns, as well.

Edited July 11, 2011 by JAB

[peejman]

I've also noticed that even with slow fire, my one-handed groups (either hand) tend to be better than two-handed groups. I can shoot faster two-handed, but the groups are larger than I'd like. I think I'm anticipating with my support hand. I'm sure that would get better if I could ever figure out how to practice regularly.

[Jonnin]

Jab, small guns like that point naturally, from what I have tried point shooting gets harder as the gun gets larger, at a rapid rate. The only guns I can point shoot decently are my really small ones, the px4, the makarov, and the 380, and the 380 is easiest of those (its a good inch shorter than the others). I have been working on this skill --- one thing I was doing was pointing, then looking down the sights to see where it would go, which showed me that I have a slight curl to my hands that I am training out. I can do it if I think about it but not by instinct yet.

[Guest Larry]

Along time ago I hunted deer with a 44 mag, my father made me practice on quart oil cans, what ever distance I could regularly hit them was my max distance, it worked well, I shot 6 with it over the years.

One persons opinion of group size is different from anothers, mine are never small enough, I used to shoot benchrest so the small group mindset is there, if I had to answer I would say for a handgun the center circle of an IDPA target consiestantly at 25 yds, that will get you a long way in shooting, bolt action rifles 1/2" or less ay 100 yds, AR platform rifles about 1" at 100 yds, all 5 shot groups at least 3 of them.

Edited July 12, 2011 by Larry

[safeandsecure]

I don't worry about "grouping" so much. My practice sessions are mostly for self-defense purposes, and I try to work strong hand and weak hand equally. My target is a paper plate, roughly 9" diameter. (Cheapest I can find) I figure if I can keep my shots on that plate, it'll work on two-legged snakes. And I seldom practice at distances longer than 15 yards. Figure that maybe I can outrun any threat at distances longer than that. (After watching a couple of news reports, maybe I need to up that distance to 25 yards ... )

[Caster]

I've already replied but I've been thinking about this a bit. I think the best group you can shoot is the one that brings peace. That can be peace of mind or peace to a situation or peace in pleasure of just being happy with what you've accomplished.