M-16/AR-15 Conversion Questions

[Guest WyattEarp]

I found a statement on the Quarterbore website and I'd like to discuss it's validity.

Drop In Auto Sear

From what I understand, so long as the DIAS or Lightning Link is registered and was/will be purchased from NFA Dealer, you fill out the Form 4 and send it to the ATF, a citizen who is non-NFA dealer can legally convert any pre or post 1986 AR-15 to fully automatic. Am I reading that right? I can't seem to find any other info online.

I notice he wrote that in 2003 (see 3rd sentence, of the 1st paragraph), and I'm wondering if anything has changed since then? or does this still hold true?

AR15 DROP-IN AUTO SEARS - WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE?

Originaly by Jeff SelectFire@aol.com with updates by Quarterbore

There are two types of AR15 Drop-In Auto-Sears (DIAS) available; (1)the so called â€legal pre-81†auto sears and (2)the registered auto sear. The “pre-81†sears are commonly advertised in Shotgun News for about $125-$200. The registered and transferable ones are much more difficult to find, and currently (Nov-2003) are priced in the $7500 - 8500 price range. The purpose and function of each type is the same; to convert a semi-automatic AR15 rifle to full automatic. While there is no physical difference between the two, there are enormous legal differences - one is completely legal to own and use, the other is a felony waiting to happen.

THE REGISTERED & TRANSFERABLE DROP-IN AUTO SEAR

This is a an auto sear made before 1986 and registered (tax paid) with the BATF as a machinegun. Currently (Nov-2003) they sell in the $7500 - 8500 price range and require an additional $200 transfer tax to own. This is the only type an individual can use to make an AR15 full auto. To obtain one, an individual (non FFL/SOT) would have to live in a state that permits ownership of full auto firearms and complete a BATF form 4 in duplicate with fingerprints, pictures, and a CLEO certification. The auto sear itself is legally the same as a complete transferable machinegun - it is legal to own and use, provided the paperwork is filed with BATF and you receive an approved form 4. The registered auto sear requires installation of M16 (full auto) fire control parts (trigger, disconnector, selector, hammer, and bolt carrier) in the semi automatic host rifle. Normally, even possession of an M16 part with an AR15 is a felony - it doesn’t even have to be installed in the gun! If you own a registered DIAS however, possession is permitted as long as you are the legal owner of a registered DIAS. If the DIAS is removed from the rifle, the M16 parts MUST BE REMOVED also. The instant a registered DIAS is removed, any M16 parts in the AR15 will constitute a felony. The same principle also applies to barrel length. If you have a short barrel (less than 16â€) on an AR15 with a registered DIAS installed, you must remove the barrel/upper whenever the DIAS is not in the gun. The registered DIAS can be installed in either a pre or post ban AR15 with all the evil assault features you wish. Because the DIAS makes the rifle full automatic when installed, it is no longer covered by the 1994 assault weapons ban, which defines an assault weapon as a “semiautomatic rifle†with specific features (bayo. lug, threaded barrel, flash hider, etc.). When the sear is removed from a post-ban gun, you must restore the gun to a post-ban configuration, and remove those evil assault features. Just remember, when the registered DIAS is installed, the host gun becomes like a machinegun and is treated as such. The instant the DIAS is removed, the host firearm must revert back to its original semiautomatic state (no F/A parts, no short barrels), and if a post ban, it must comply with the assault weapons ban.

THE “PRE-81†DROP-IN AUTO SEAR

The “pre-81†DIAS - commonly advertised in Shotgun News for about $125-$200 are a completely different item than a registered DIAS. Prior to 1981 it was legal to make and own these sears without necessarily registering them as machineguns. BATF eventually caught on, and in 1981 issued a ruling that the sears were considered machinegun conversion parts and sears made after 1981 had to be registered (tax paid) and transfer as any other NFA item (these became the registered ones referred to above). BATF grandfathered the unregistered sears made prior to 1981, but sears made after 1981 had to either be registered or are considered unregistered machineguns - a serious felony. IT IS A FELONY TO POSSESS BOTH A PRE-81 DROP-IN AUTO SEAR AND AN AR15 - UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES CAN AN INDIVIDUAL LEGALLY USE A PRE-81 DIAS IN AN AR15. Technically, you are allowed to possess an unregistered DIAS which was made prior to 1981, but you cannot possess one if you own an AR15 - it’s one or the other, but not both. Obviously, this rule makes possession of a pre-81 DIAS useless - if you cannot own the rifle it goes in, about all you can do with them is to make cufflinks, earrings, or a very small paperweight.

The so called “pre-81†DIAS presents another legal problem, which can make the mere possession of the sear a felony - even in the complete absence or an AR15. As stated previously, only sears made prior to 1981 are allowed to be unregistered - any sears made after the 1981 ruling must be registered or will be considered by BATF to be unregistered machineguns. Because none of the pre-81 sears carry a serial number which can be definitively linked to a date of manufacture, there is no way to prove to BATF or a prosecutor that an unregistered pre-81 DIAS was actually made prior to 1981. If you are caught with one (just a sear, not even with a rifle) BATF can assume it was made after 1981, and therefore prosecute for felony possession of an unregistered machinegun. The burden of proof will fall on the owner of the sear to prove it was made prior to 1981 - very difficult to do without a serial number of date of manufacture on the sear itself. Granted, some pre-81 sears come with a letter purported to document the sears authenticity, but often these are just Xeroxed, and will not stand up to the scrutiny of a prosecutor.

CONCLUSIONS

If you are considering buying an auto sear to convert your AR15 to a full automatic firearm, there is only one option - the registered & transferable DIAS. While it may be tempting to buy a pre-81 to save thousands over the registered sear, the risks are considerable. Possession of an unregistered machinegun (a pre-81 DIAS and an AR15 rifle...or possibly even just a so called “pre-81†DIAS) is a felony punishable by up to 10 years in prison, and up to a $10,000 fine, and permanent loss of your right to ever own a gun or vote again. Numerous rumors have circulated that some of the people selling the pre-81 sears are actually BATF operations. Buyer beware.

he also goes on to say, once you remove the DIAS from the host-gun (where it is installed) you must return that rifle to post-ban configuration. Which brings me to my next question.

Say you go out of town on vacation or you have to travel on business. As a safety precaution to prevent against theft or damage from fire, flood, or some other natural disaster, you remove the DIAS from your converted M-16/AR-15 and put it in your banks security deposit box while you are gone to ensure it's safety and that won't end up stolen, damaged in a fire, or blown away by a tornado or some other act of God. Are you still required to convert the rifle back to post-ban configuration and remove the other M-16 parts from it?

[Jasongar8]

That article was written before the Clinton "assault weapons" ban ended in 2004. Some of the features he talks about were flash hiders (how scary), bayonet lugs (so deadly) and collapsible stocks (very evil). You don't have to worry about that at all now (since 2004), RDIAS or not.

But if you have a RDIAS you will need to remove the full auto fire control parts from your AR once the RDIAS is out of the gun. Also if you are running a barrel under 16" with your RDIAS you will need to remove it once the RDIAS is out of the gun so the gun doesn't become an unregistered SBR.

So you answer your question, no you don't have to worry about pre and post ban configurations. You DO have to remove M16 fire control parts when you take out the RDIAS, and you DO have to have at least a 16" barrel on your AR when the RDIAS is removed.

[Guest WyattEarp]

That article was written before the Clinton "assault weapons" ban ended in 2004. Some of the features he talks about were flash hiders (how scary), bayonet lugs (so deadly) and collapsible stocks (very evil). You don't have to worry about that at all now (since 2004), RDIAS or not.

But if you have a RDIAS you will need to remove the full auto fire control parts from your AR once the RDIAS is out of the gun. Also if you are running a barrel under 16" with your RDIAS you will need to remove it once the RDIAS is out of the gun so the gun doesn't become an unregistered SBR.

So you answer your question, no you don't have to worry about pre and post ban configurations. You DO have to remove M16 fire control parts when you take out the RDIAS, and you DO have to have at least a 16" barrel on your AR when the RDIAS is removed.

thanks.

you didn't answer the first question above the quoted material, that I asked.

Original question was:

Can a citizen who is a non-NFA dealer legally convert an M-16/AR-15 with a DIAS or Lighting Link and put it in any Pre-1986 or Post-1986 AR-15, provided they purchase the DIAS or Lightning Link from an NFA Dealer, and Fill out their Form 4 and submit it to the ATF?

[Guest FastMover]

Yes. It has to be a registered DIAS though.

[1gewehr]

I'll try to simplify a stupid and confusing law.

According to the law, the DIAS or LL IS the machine gun. If you have a legally-owned DIAS or LL, then you can use it in any firearm that it will function in without further paperwork. As soon as the DIAS or LL is installed, the host weapon magically becomes a legal machinegun. And when you remove the DIAS or LL, the host weapon reverts to it's normal status.

In 1986, Congress passed a law prohibiting machineguns made after May 15th, 1986 from being transferred to us civilians. That fixed the supply of legally-transferable machineguns (and DIAS and LL) to those which had already been made. That is why prices are so high.

I hope this clears things up a bit. Firearms laws are arcane, convoluted, and absurd. And machinegun laws are an arcane, convoluted, and absurd subset of those firearms laws. Don't feel bad if you find it confusing. I've been dealing with those laws as a dealer, machinegun owner, and licensed collector for over 30 years. And I still find areas where I have to sit down, scratch my head, and puzzle out what the heck that gobbledy-gook actually means!

[Guest WyattEarp]

thanks guys! Appreciate the info from knowledge, experienced and in 1gewehr's case, licensed!

[Alleycat72]

You don't have to buy one from a dealer. You can get onefrom an individual as well. If both parties are in state no dealers need to be involved.If the individual is out of state, it will cost you two stamps and a dealertransfer fee.

[Dolomite_supafly]

I have read ads for Lightning Links. They were selling for $20 back before the ban and now they are deep into the 6 digit dollar range. RDIAS's were nearly as cheap back then but those are even more expensive than LL's. But both are still cheaper than a registered receiver (RR). And personally I would rather have a RDIAS than a RR. If you have a kaboom with a RR you are probably out your MG. With a LL or a RDIAS you can just install them into another receiver and go.

And do not order from the ad in Shotgun News for new, pre 1981, RDIAS's. They claim they are legal and they probably are if you do not own an AR but I wouldn't want to even risk it. Possession of these with an AR is just as criminal as being installed in an AR.

Dolomite

[Jon_L]

Here's a question I have about them: is it true that when you pull the trigger for a quick burst that all the rounds will get set off (down the pipe) due to the vibrations in the firearm?

[Jasongar8]

Here's a question I have about them: is it true that when you pull the trigger for a quick burst that all the rounds will get set off (down the pipe) due to the vibrations in the firearm?

No, not true at all. There is no more vibration than when you rapid fire your AR15.

[Jon_L]

That's what I figured, but I heard too many people saying such for it to be written off as a rumor in my book.

[Guest WyattEarp]

I'll try to simplify a stupid and confusing law.

you want to hear something even more stupid than that law? Some guy on another gun forum said this (in regards to automatic firearms) and I quote (i'll leave his name out so as not to embarrass him).

Telling people how to convert guns is illegal' date=' discussing already legal ones is not.[/quote']

[dlm37015]

get you a new bump stock before they are banned they are neat

[Guest WyattEarp]

haha, im not in the market one for anytime soon, i dont have that kind of jack laying around. hopefully i will have one in the next 5 years though. I was just asking to clarify for someone on another forum who wasn't very knowledgeable about the can's and cannot's.