Serpa, Holster of Death, Strikes Again

[Caster]

Is it true that some training facilities will not allow the SERPA on the range? Seems like I read that a couple years ago.

[Links2k]

That was a good PSA. Reminds me to stay on top of my game.

[TGO David]

Is it true that some training facilities will not allow the SERPA on the range? Seems like I read that a couple years ago.

Yes, that is true.

[Oh Shoot]

Is it true that some training facilities will not allow the SERPA on the range? Seems like I read that a couple years ago.

Yes, that is true.

Gabe Suarez is particularly vocal about it, a number of threads on his site.

- OS

[redstategunnut]

I do not understand civilian concealed carriers using a retention holster. If you use a proper leather or kydex holster, the gun is going to stay in the holster. I've never even heard of anyone trying to snatch a concealed handgun from someone. There's just no reason for a retention holster for a civilian carrying concealed.

Furthermore, at this point, I do not understand anyone using the Serpa anywhere, anytime. Call it a "training" issue all you want, the release mechanism puts the trigger finger in the wrong place doing the wrong thing at the wrong time. Sure, Tex and others could have shot themselves just the same with any holster, but they didn't.

There are numerous videos of the other famous Serpa failure, the failure to release.

This is a flawed holster, plain and simple. The only people defending them are people invested in them, refusing to admit this holster is a problem going somewhere to happen. The Serpa holster, more than any other I've ever seen, tends to create problems that do not need to be introduced into an already inherently dangerous activity.

[timcalhoun]

You know I've seen this happen on two separate occasions when people were using the serpa.

The first time was when the shooter drew the gun and vigorously was unlocking the holster. He unknowingly swept his finger right onto the trigger and............bang!!!!!

The second time was during winter. Upon the draw the gun got caught on a shirt that was tucked in, and he thought the holster was still locked and tried to press the lock on the holster again and..................bang!!!

Fortunately neither guy was hurt but both impacts were inches away from their feet.

[BigK]

Blackhawk has sold more than a few of these holsters and we've all heard of this "issue". Seems to me that as litigious as our society is, they've surely been sued and won. If so, it proves this is operator error. I'm curious if the "blame the holster" crowd has any similarities to the "blame the gun" crowd that pop up when somebody gets Glock-butt.

Regardless, it took stones to man-up and post that video. He had to know there'd be finger pointing and ridicule. To me it shows that he's more dedicated to helping folks than me. If I shot myself in the leg, none of you would know about it unless the hospital leaked the info, LOL.

[mikegideon]

Blackhawk has sold more than a few of these holsters and we've all heard of this "issue". Seems to me that as litigious as our society is, they've surely been sued and won. If so, it proves this is operator error. I'm curious if the "blame the holster" crowd has any similarities to the "blame the gun" crowd that pop up when somebody gets Glock-butt.

Regardless, it took stones to man-up and post that video. He had to know there'd be finger pointing and ridicule. To me it shows that he's more dedicated to helping folks than me. If I shot myself in the leg, none of you would know about it unless the hospital leaked the info, LOL.

What does the outcome of any lawsuit have to do with reality? If the serpa makes negligent discharges more likely, then I will stay away from it.

[timcalhoun]

Was it operator error? Absolutely.

Did the design of the holster play a role? It's pretty obvious to me it did.

I've seen a lot of AD's through the years of competition and the two examples I cited above were the only two that I've witnessed where the equipment played a role in the AD and subsequent DQ.

When you are trying to go fast for whatever reason, it's pretty easy to exaggerate muscle movement.

[BigK]

What does the outcome of any lawsuit have to do with reality?

In my version of reality, people sue McDonald's over hot coffee or homeowners over injuries during a robbery and they win. So, I'm just saying that if Blackhawk hasn't been sued over this holster yet, there's a reason...coffee is supposed to be hot, you might get hurt while robbing someone's house, and you're supposed to keep your finger out of the trigger guard until on target even if you're in a hurry.

[Guest WyattEarp]

accidents happen to even the best of us, trained or not, prepared or not. we are all humans, not machines and therefore prone to making mistakes, whether we're in a hurry or we're careless, negligent, etc.

at least he took some accountability for it (i'd have been too embarrassed to make a video about it though, lol).

anyone else notice he was trying to "quick draw"?

[mikegideon]

I think Tim C said it best. If the operation of the holster makes it a little easier to shoot yourself, then it's probably something to avoid. There are other effective means for retention.

[Guest ArmaDeFuego]

I gotta chime in here & say that I also fail to see how the holster can be blamed for this incident. I have a Serpa holster & its not that difficult to keep your finger extended STRAIGHT OUT as you draw it, & never get anywhere near the trigger.

Looks like operator error to me, not equipment error.

[Guest ArmaDeFuego]

I think Tim C said it best. If the operation of the holster makes it a little easier to shoot yourself, then it's probably something to avoid. There are other effective means for retention.

Same could be said for a Glock. Lack of any kind of safety makes it "a little easier to shoot yourself" but I dont see anyone avoiding Glocks. Its operator error, pure & simple.

Dont blame a Glock when you get Glock butt, & dont blame a Serpa when you shoot yourself 'cause you dont leave your finger where its supposed to be.....

[eapking]

The guy owned it and that's good. Mixing guns and holsters probably did not help this training session either.

[Defender]

Same could be said for a Glock. Lack of any kind of safety makes it "a little easier to shoot yourself" but I dont see anyone avoiding Glocks. Its operator error, pure & simple.

Dont blame a Glock when you get Glock butt, & dont blame a Serpa when you shoot yourself 'cause you dont leave your finger where its supposed to be.....

I don't think anyone here seriously blames the holster, just like they don't blame a Glock when someone does the wrong thing. The point that some were making is that that holster contributed to the ND via its design. Is it a bad design? Probably not really, at least without the operator error added in its not. It was STILL operator error, no doubt about that. Its not Serpa's fault at all and no one is saying it is. And as far as Glocks go....obviously some of us do not embrace the design and choose not to carry them. Is there anything wrong with them? No, I doubt it, but some people think that they are more prone to have a ND due to operator error with that type of gun and choose to not carry it.

In investigating accidents, there are usually contributing factors. Perhaps all of the factors added together, when there is NO operator error, will not result in an accident, but take any one or two of the factors and add in operator error, and you have the accident. Conversely, sometimes operator error, without a contributing factor, will NOT result in an accident.

They don't call them "on purposes" lol.

[BigK]

I don't think anyone here seriously blames the holster, just like they don't blame a Glock when someone does the wrong thing. The point that some were making is that that holster contributed to the ND via its design. Is it a bad design? Probably not really, at least without the operator error added in its not. It was STILL operator error, no doubt about that. Its not Serpa's fault at all and no one is saying it is. And as far as Glocks go....obviously some of us do not embrace the design and choose not to carry them. Is there anything wrong with them? No, I doubt it, but some people think that they are more prone to have a ND due to operator error with that type of gun and choose to not carry it.

In investigating accidents, there are usually contributing factors. Perhaps all of the factors added together, when there is NO operator error, will not result in an accident, but take any one or two of the factors and add in operator error, and you have the accident. Conversely, sometimes operator error, without a contributing factor, will NOT result in an accident.

They don't call them "on purposes" lol.

Very, very well put, Barewoolf.

In my previous replies, it sounds like I'm a big fan of Serpas, but I'm not. The truth is..I don't like the idea of any holster retention beyond Level 1 (friction) keeping me from pulling my pistol under duress. Hell, I'm slow enough as it is, so I need every advantage I can get.

The way Barewoolf puts it, I see more clearly what others are saying about the Serpa being a contributing factor. What percentage of the blame you attribute is up to you, but I concede that zero is not the right answer. I still think that user error is the main cause of the Serpa ND's, but the way it was put here I can see the other side too.

Maybe what we're really only disagreeing on what percentage of blame, not the existence of any blame.

[East_TN_Patriot]

Well, based on the overall comments here, looks like my personal saying is true: life's too short to use a plastic holster.

[Guest ArmaDeFuego]

To me blaming a Serpa holster when someone shoots themselves is kind of starting to go down a slippery slope. There are a lot of things in this world that have the capacity to injure you if you use them incorrectly or dont follow a certain procedure while using them. Are we going to blame all those things every time someone uses them incorrectly & gets injured?

[MarkInNashville]

Personally I give OhShoot lots of kudos for standing up and telling us A) what happened his option of why it happened and C) for letting us see it for ourselves. I pray that he heals quickly and without problems!!!

As the the why, as several others have said I too, have be in situations where I was and was not to blame; All I can say is PTL that I wasn't seriously injured!

I do hope folks take this in the spirit that it was offered, to LEARN, to UNDERSTAND and to NOT repeat it!

[Oh Shoot]

Personally I give OhShoot lots of kudos for standing up and telling us A) what happened his option of why it happened and C) for letting us see it for ourselves. I pray that he heals quickly and without problems!!! ...

Brother, I appreciate the sentiments, but <BIG WHOOSH>, that ain't me in the video, I just reposted it.

I already knew enough about the Holster of Death to avoid it. I'm klutzy enough as it is. :)

- OS

[TGO David]

To me blaming a Serpa holster when someone shoots themselves is kind of starting to go down a slippery slope. There are a lot of things in this world that have the capacity to injure you if you use them incorrectly or dont follow a certain procedure while using them. Are we going to blame all those things every time someone uses them incorrectly & gets injured?

I think you're making quite a leap with that statement. I am all for removing the warning labels from products and letting natural selection do its job, but there are times when an object has a bad enough design flaw that it simply shouldn't be used. The SERPA holster is, in my opinion, one of those products.

This thread has served as a gentle reminder to me that sometimes you just cannot debate the flaws and merits of purchased products because sooner or later someone will get upset that you have insinuated they did not make a wise purchasing decision. I'm not saying this is you, but I'm seeing signs of it in this thread. People tend to invest too much of their pride in the things that they buy, and that clouds their ability to see things rationally.

It may very well be that 90% of SERPA holster users never have a problem. It's that other 10% that slap the trigger with their finger and sent a round into their leg, or who don't maintain their gear very well and allow grit and grime to clog the release mechanism, that concern me. The rest of you are free to go.

[Guest ArmaDeFuego]

This thread has served as a gentle reminder to me that sometimes you just cannot debate the flaws and merits of purchased products because sooner or later someone will get upset that you have insinuated they did not make a wise purchasing decision. I'm not saying this is you, but I'm seeing signs of it in this thread. People tend to invest too much of their pride in the things that they buy, and that clouds their ability to see things rationally.

I see what you are saying, & I agree that people do get like that with things sometimes, definitely.

In this instance though I dont see that happening to me at all. I have a Serpa holster, sure, but I also have several others. I wouldnt say that I like the Serpa any more or less than them. Its a holster, not my firstborn child. I could sell it on eBay in a heartbeat & not think anything of it.

My thing is that I am big on personal responsibility. I absolutely cant STAND when someone does something stupid that is clearly their fault, but just HAS to blame someone or something else for it. That is becoming all too common in this day & age. It drives me crazy. I was so happy that the guy in the video at least didnt try to do that, but others who watch the video seem to be trying to do it for him. Thats whats getting on my nerves.

I've seen VERY few things in my life that happen to people that arent their own fault. I'm not saying it NEVER happens, but I'm just the kind of person that believes that the majority of what happens to you is a result of your own good or bad decisions.

When you draw a gun from a Serpa holster, make sure you keep your finger pointing straight out & dont curl it around the trigger. I simply fail to see the design flaw in the holster. I mean, if the trigger was getting hung up in the mechanism & firing off on its own I might could understand. But it seems to me that it most (all?) of the cases I've seen so far the user simply pulls the trigger. If they wouldnt have pulled the trigger the gun wouldnt have gone off. I dont see the issue with the holster.

And again, I'm faaaaar from being a Serpa nut or anything like that. The thing only cost me like $30. If I felt it wasnt a wise purchase I would just sell it. I'm honestly not trying to "defend" Serpa or their holsters, as much as I am trying to point out my inability to see a problem with them. I simply dont understand how a user pulling the trigger can be blamed on the holster. Again, if it was the holster having some piece that catches the trigger or something like that, then yea, I would understand. I just see it as them failing to follow one of the main rules of firearm safety: Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.

[93civEJ1]

i actually bought one of these today from basspro, just to have on my for an owb until my supertuck comes in and as an option for something instead of IWB when i dont want to where the iwb. I see where one could get antsy and get the finger in the trigger guard on removing, but it also is very nice to have your finger land on the slide area above the trigger guard when drawing straight out.

[Oh Shoot]

...

When you draw a gun from a Serpa holster, make sure you keep your finger pointing straight out & dont curl it around the trigger. I simply fail to see the design flaw in the holster. ...

Yes, be sure to remember that when you are in full red alert, perhaps already wounded, heart rate at 180, and adrenaline has narrowed your vision to pinhole camera status, and you are attempting to draw quicker than you ever have before in your life.

- OS