When you buy a gun in TN, how long does the TBI/Store keep records of who bought it?

[Guest maddox]

Edit: dumb question

Edited July 2, 2011 by maddox

[bigwakes]

Why do you need that information? The store would not hold to a warranty on the firearm. If you know what part of town I was in and the year you bought it some guys on here might be able to narrow it down. The manufacturer would be a better resource to tell you the store it was shipped to, but they might require legal paperwork to release that information. The TBI does not keep that paperwork. They are only called to verify your background check. They are not allowed to keep paperwork of who bought which gun from where because that would make a database of gun owners, which at the moment is not legal for the state to keep.

[MacGyver]

Fortunately for all gun owners in the state of Tennessee, unless the store has since gone out of business and their records were turned over to the ATF, the only group that would have a record of the sale is the store itself when you filled out the Form 4473.

Maybe you could describe the problem you're having and someone could point you in the right direction.

[Guest maddox]

Yah, I guess it makes more sense to go through the manufacturer for a warranty. I'm retarded.

Edited July 2, 2011 by maddox

[Guest maddox]

Isn't there already technically a database since every store has to keep every 4473?

[dlm37015]

they only keep it for 20 years after that there thrown away

[bigwakes]

Isn't there already technically a database since every store has to keep every 4473?

As far as I am aware the process is the police call the manufacturer with a suspect serial number. The manufacturer has a record of the distributor the gun was sold to and the distributor has the store information. Once they get it nailed down to the store the store finds the physical paper you signed to verify who the gun was sold to. Assuming the gun was not sold to a third party then they have the info for the owner. I would not call that a database. A database would allow the state to declare marshal law and then search a list of gun owners in the state or parts of the state to confinscate firearms. The current rules make it near impossible to get a list of gun owners for a given area.

[Guest maddox]

As far as I am aware the process is the police call the manufacturer with a suspect serial number. The manufacturer has a record of the distributor the gun was sold to and the distributor has the store information. Once they get it nailed down to the store the store finds the physical paper you signed to verify who the gun was sold to. Assuming the gun was not sold to a third party then they have the info for the owner. I would not call that a database. A database would allow the state to declare marshal law and then search a list of gun owners in the state or parts of the state to confinscate firearms. The current rules make it near impossible to get a list of gun owners for a given area.

Got ya. But what stops the government from saying, "I think John Doe robbed that bank with a gun. I'm going to ask every single gun shop if John Doe, ever bought a gun"? or "I'm going to see if John Doe has ever filled out a 4473"?

[Oh Shoot]

Got ya. But what stops the government from saying, "I think John Doe robbed that bank with a gun. I'm going to ask every single gun shop if John Doe, ever bought a gun"? or "I'm going to see if John Doe has ever filled out a 4473"?

LEA's can trace it from simple serial number from the factory to the distributor to the gun shop, and hence by gun shop's record to the first buyer. After that, in states where you can buy/sell individually with no paperwork (which is almost all of them), the trail ends.

So LEA's can indeed generally find the first owner of a gun.

- OS

[Oh Shoot]

Got ya. But what stops the government from saying, "I think John Doe robbed that bank with a gun. I'm going to ask every single gun shop if John Doe, ever bought a gun"? or "I'm going to see if John Doe has ever filled out a 4473"?

Well, they COULD ask every FFL if John Doe bought a gun, but think they'd need to prove investigation to do it, maybe even a warrant of some type.

Note that most (if not all) gun stores keep hard copy books only, which is all that is required. It would be pretty tough job for one that's been in biz a good while to find a name; if had date to go with it, would be pretty easy.

Asking to see if John Doe ever filled out a 4473 is same thing, as only the gun stores have them, and the fed (nor the state) ain't by law supposed to keep the info from the background checks. Note emphasis.

Then again, Patriot Act basically allows any agency to do damn near anything, depending on how that agency would like to interpret it.

- OS

[bigwakes]

I'm not sure a date would help. If I was a gun store I would keep records in order based on serial numbers. It's very slim an inquiry would be made by date or name.

[Oh Shoot]

I'm not sure a date would help. If I was a gun store I would keep records in order based on serial numbers. It's very slim an inquiry would be made by date or name.

I never really thought about this before, maybe a FFL or employee can chime in as to how they do organize their 4473's, and is there a prescribed way to do it?

- OS

[Randy W]

Question? How many registar their NEW gun they purchase with the manufacturer so you can get rercall info or other updates from them, and could LEA just ask that way for newest owner info. Until now i never thougth about this, but i registard my new to me PPK with Smith and Wesson so i can be kept up to date on recall since the weapon had been recalled once. Thoughts?

[luvmyberetta]

Edit: dumb question

The store must keep it's firearm sales & transfers on record for 20 years.

[dlm37015]

records are kept in the stores bound book as to the date they came in thats why on lots of boxes you will see page such and line such the 4473s are kept in the order the gun went out date wise not too hard if you keep your paper work up to date

[Guest Laufer]

Although this is unrelated, the state of TN passed an interesting law not too long ago.

Just after Katrina devastated N.O. and southern MS, some New Orleans police went door-to-door in at least one neighborhood and confiscated guns from residents.

As far as I know the police kept no record of who owned what guns, which prevented the owners from ever recovering the guns.

TN passed a law that made that action illegal.

[Guest BungieCord]

The owner of my LGS told me the state is required to purge the record of your NICS check within 24 hours, provided it comes back "clean."

[Oh Shoot]

The owner of my LGS told me the state is required to purge the record of your NICS check within 24 hours, provided it comes back "clean."

NICS is federal. TICS uses it. So you have to trust both the state and the feds to purge it. Lord knows I trust them both, don't you?

- OS

[Guest WyattEarp]

Although this is unrelated, the state of TN passed an interesting law not too long ago.

Just after Katrina devastated N.O. and southern MS, some New Orleans police went door-to-door in at least one neighborhood and confiscated guns from residents.

As far as I know the police kept no record of who owned what guns, which prevented the owners from ever recovering the guns.

TN passed a law that made that action illegal.

im sorry but I have to laugh at people who gave up their firearms willingly down there. The police didn't have time to search every one's house, there is no database of who owns what, so how would they know if you had firearms or not? I would have just said, no firearms here and that would have been the end of it.

I still have to question this confiscation as legal. Does the declaration of martial law actually allow illegal search and seizures/confiscations?

[redfsr]

im sorry but I have to laugh at people who gave up their firearms willingly down there. The police didn't have time to search every one's house, there is no database of who owns what, so how would they know if you had firearms or not? I would have just said, no firearms here and that would have been the end of it.

I still have to question this confiscation as legal. Does the declaration of martial law actually allow illegal search and seizures/confiscations?

I'd have to say NO on that one. I also agree with you that those who gave them up, provided they weren't obvious prohibited persons, were stupid.

[Guest Sgt. Joe]

Question? How many registar their NEW gun they purchase with the manufacturer so you can get rercall info or other updates from them, and could LEA just ask that way for newest owner info. Until now i never thougth about this, but i registard my new to me PPK with Smith and Wesson so i can be kept up to date on recall since the weapon had been recalled once. Thoughts?

I do not fill out the registration cards.

I too bought a PPK about two weeks before they announced the massive recall a few years ago, needless to say I was not happy about it. I also had not filled out the registration card.

I simply called them and gave them the serial number and they sent out a mailing label for me. Then when I found out that it was taking months to get them back when the recall first started and because I could not duplicate the problem I held on to mine for another 6-8 months until the back-log was caught up. By then the mailing label had expired so they just sent me another one, I got my gun back in about 10 days rather than having to wait like a bunch of folks did.

You can just look on the top of the beaver tail area and there will be a small circular punch mark visible if your gun had ever been sent in for that recall. If it has the mark you are good, if it does not I would call them and give them the SR and ask if the gun was even part of the recall as guns made after a certain date were not subject to it.

If your gun is indeed subject to that recall and does not have the mark I would send it in simply for liability reasons even if you dont have any problems with it. I knew mine did not have the problem but did it just as a CYA thing. I dont remember just what all they did to it but you will at least get a feed ramp polishing out of it. If you ask you may even get a free mag out of it, I asked and they did send me one for my troubles.

At any rate I have also had some work done by Ruger and all I needed was the SR. They never asked if I had registered it or not and as I said I never have with any of my guns.

Periodic checks of the manufacturer's websites and even this and other gun boards will most likely give you a heads-up if any recall is made on any weapon, the folks on these gun-boards tend to stay on top of things like that.

Personally I see no need to fill out the cards and send them in. I just can not see not doing so preventing someone from getting any type of work done to a gun that needs it. S&W like other companies are fully aware of private sales.

[Guest Guardian5]

I still have to question this confiscation as legal. Does the declaration of martial law actually allow illegal search and seizures/confiscations?

The short answer is yes it does, sorta. If forces are operating under the direction of a military command during a time of declared Martial Law then the normal rules do not apply. Specifically the writ Habeas Corpus.

From the Constitution Article 1 Section 9: "The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it."

--- taken from Wikipedia

A writ of habeas corpus is a legal action against unlawful detainment that commands a law enforcement agency or other body that has a person in custody to have a court inquire into the legality of the detention. The court may order the person released if the reason for detention is deemed insufficient or unjustifiable. The Constitution further provides that the privilege of the writ of habeas corpus may not be suspended "unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it". In Ex parte Milligan (1866), the Supreme Court decided that the suspension of habeas corpus was lawful, but military tribunals did not apply to citizens in states that had upheld the authority of the Constitution and where civilian courts were still operating. ---

Since civilian courts were not operating in New Orleans in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, one could argue that a situation existed for the suspension of habeas corpus. Basically, as long as the martial forces followed their commander's orders they can make up the rules as they go along.

This is one of the reasons Martial Law is so effective, but it is also a risk to entrust so much power to one person.

To further muddy the waters Louisiana didn't actually declare Martial Law, but a less defined state of affairs call a State of Emergency. Like Ronald Reagan said "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'"

Edited July 24, 2011 by Guardian5

[bubbadavis]

From the Constitution Article 1 Section 9: "The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it."

...snip...

Since civilian courts were not operating in New Orleans in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, one could argue that a situation existed for the suspension of habeas corpus.

Civilian courts not operating is not a reason to suspend Habeas Corpus. Rebellion and invasion are the only two reasons given in the constitution to suspend Habeas Corpus.

[Oh Shoot]

Civilian courts not operating is not a reason to suspend Habeas Corpus. Rebellion and invasion are the only two reasons given in the constitution to suspend Habeas Corpus.

I don't know why everyone keeps throwing up the Constitution in all these gun/freedom debates. Get hip, y'all, this is America, and America hasn't needed no steenking Constitution for quite some time now.

- OS

[bubbadavis]

I don't know why everyone keeps throwing up the Constitution in all these gun/freedom debates. Get hip, y'all, this is America, and America hasn't needed no steenking Constitution for quite some time now.

- OS

Point well taken OS! Its a 'living document' anyway - so whoever is in power can make it say whatever whatever they want!

Edited July 25, 2011 by bubbadavis
bubba can't type so good