Course Review.....Defensive Shotgun

[BigPoppa]

Yesterday, I went through the Defensive Shotgun course conducted by The Range, Inc. out at Centerville, Tennessee. My formal shotgun training has been sporadic, and limited, so I had been looking forward to this course for a while.

The drive from Murfreesboro to Centerville wasn't as bad as I thought, but once there, The Range's facility is DEEP in the boon docks ! I think we were 1.7 miles off the paved road. I swear I heard creepy banjo music. I will say that they have a very nice facility...nice range house, beautiful scenery, a little creek running through the middle of the place, and a nicely kept square range.

I'm typing this with an ice pack on my right shoulder after firing an estimated 200 rounds of bird load, 00 buck, and slugs.

John Hutcherson, the owner, brought in Greg Lee to run us (4 shooters) through our paces. Greg is a veteran Metro Nashville Police officer who now works full time as an Academy instructor. He's also retired from the Tennessee Air National Guard, who as he put it "sent me on an all expenses paid tour of Afghanistan" after 9/11. Mike Sanders, an ex U.S. Army Captain, was on hand as well.

John was there to greet us, and take care of the paperwork. He briefed us on range rules and safety, and introduced Greg.

Greg started with a little of his background, and then began with the classroom material. He covered nomenclature, safety, differences in models and actions, and various shotgun accesories.

Following the classroom work, and a break, we headed out to the range to work on dry drills. Greg covered administrative loading and unloading, tactical reloads, sling carry methods, "The Tactical Circle" of safe gun handling, and how to properly mount the gun. Apparently, if I had paid a little more attention to that portion of the class, my shoulder wouldn't be quite as sore today. We covered the "low ready" and "cover" positions, and went over how to walk properly with a shotgun mounted.

A big focus of the course was ammunition management...the skill of "shoot one, load one" so that you never run the gun completely dry, and have to fall back on that emergency reload.

Throughout the day, Greg would mix in humorous anecdotes, and some of his personal experiences. All of these were relevant, and useful to why we were there. Greg and Mike kept things light, but when the line was hot, they were all business and made sure everybody was safe. Greg also said what to me are the magic instructor words....that what he was giving us was "a" way and not necessarily "the" way. Take what we could use, practice with it, and go from there. When I take training, and I take quite a bit, I respect instructors who are open minded, not dogmatic, and don't get defensive when they are asked a question. Greg fits that bill.

We started the live fire with several rounds of birdshot to get everybody warmed up. After that, we moved over to buckshot at various distances, and discussed how to "pattern" your own personal gun. We moved on into slugs, and shot slugs from prone, kneeling, and standing, again at varying distances.

Towards the end of the day, we spent some time on transition drills with our handguns. Greg covered two different transition methods, and encouraged us to practice (safely) and figure out which way worked best for us.

The capstone of the day was the infamous "Rolling Thunder" drill, which really tested our ammunition management skills. We fired the drill on 5 steel targets, and suffice to say that RT was quite a workout !

So all in all, it was a great day. I'm tired and sore today, but definitely glad I went. Well worth the money and drive time, this class gave me plenty of good information and skills training, and showed me where I need to work on. Greg is a top notch instructor. He covered a lot of material in one day, but didn't overwhelm us or leave anybody behind.

In conclusion, Greg + The Range, Inc. =

Edited March 3, 2008 by BigPoppa

[The Rabbi]

Could you describe the "shoot one load one" idea a little? I have never seen this demonstrated and the description I've gotten sounds like a recipe for disaster. Me personally, when someone is shooting at me I'm going to unload the shotgun for all I'm worth and then if there's still a threat, I'll transition to a handgun.

[BigPoppa]

Could you describe the "shoot one load one" idea a little?

A tactical reload. Just like with a handgun, you top off when you can. After you fire a round or two or whatever, you chamber a round. As the situation allows, you then replenish the magazine. Behind cover, if available. You do this with the gun still upright and facing the threat, with your finger off the trigger. Your strong hand is controlling the gun, and your support hand is stuffing shells into the magazine. You've already chambered a round, and you're still able to fire again if need be.

then if there's still a threat, I'll transition to a handgun.

Exactly. In your scenario, you've run dry and the BG is still coming. So different situation, different response. You transition to the handgun and/or start using your Mossberg like a Louisville Slugger.

Edited March 3, 2008 by BigPoppa

[Magiccarpetrides]

Thanks for the excellent and informative report. Sounds like a very cool class.

[Guest jackdog]

nice report glad you enjoyed the training

[The Rabbi]

You do this with the gun still upright and facing the threat, with your finger off the trigger. Your strong hand is controlling the gun, and your support hand is stuffing shells into the magazine. You've already chambered a round, and you're still able to fire again if need be.

That would take a lot of practice to me because the only way I know to reload, e.g., a Rem 870 is turning the gun over. That obviously makes it useless for the reloading period.

But maybe I'd have to try it first or see it demo'd.

[BimmerFreak]

That would take a lot of practice to me because the only way I know to reload, e.g., a Rem 870 is turning the gun over. That obviously makes it useless for the reloading period.

But maybe I'd have to try it first or see it demo'd.

Thats the difference between an admin reload, and a reload when bad guys want to kill you.

The same can be said for an weapons system.

If you plan on using any firearm to defend your life, you owe it to yourself to be proficient at reloading on the run, one handed, in total darkness, and/or one handed.

Why? you may find yourself in a situation where your ability to do so is the difference between coming home, and coming home in a box.

[The Rabbi]

I'm not terribly worried about it as there is no case to my knowledge where a private citizen ever ran even a standard-capacity shotgun dry.

As I said, I would have to see someone demonstrate that particular reloading technique to believe in its viability.

[BimmerFreak]

I'm not terribly worried about it as there is no case to my knowledge where a private citizen ever ran even a standard-capacity shotgun dry.

As I said, I would have to see someone demonstrate that particular reloading technique to believe in its viability.

We are not talking specific techniques here.

We are talking TTPs or Training Tactics and Procedures.

In other words;

The points stressed regarding tactical/combat reloads are more about battlefield mindset, not what hand you load a shell with, or where you keep your extra ammo on your person.

I agree that there are few (if any) documented cases of citizen using a shotgun for defense, running dry, and needing to reload another 5,6,7,or 8 shells.

BUT, I thought the logic behind training was to practice and become better prepared for situations that may arise.

If you want to defend your family with 7 shots out of your 870, more power to you.

Using your logic (no documented cases of running dry) why dont you just load your shotgun with 3 rounds? That should be enough to get the job done, right?

I would also suggest loading your (many) wheelguns with only 2 or 3 rounds.

That should be more than enough to reduce any threat you may face.

[The Rabbi]

Ooh boy.

The dexterity required to load a wheelgun to its full capacity before I leave in the morning is pretty minimal. I don't know if I could do it with one hand but I dont really need to as both of mine function just fine. So it doesnt take a lot of practice to do it.

Loading a shotgun in the face of hostile fire with the weak hand by feel alone would take a huge amount of practice to be proficient at it, if it could be done at all. The investment of time and energy is not worth it compared to the likelihood of its happening. Any demonstration perfecting this technique amounts, imo, to a "stupid human trick" and not much more.

There is this thing called "risk assesment" that people do. By definition one cannot prepare for all eventualities since they aren't all known. So the prudent thing is to prepare for the likely ones, with an eye towards investment of resources required. I could get my car armor plated to prevent car attacks, but that isnt very practical or cost-effective since I am not at much risk for that kind of attack and the cost to do so would be very high. If I were at risk it would be a different story.

In fact I think my shotgun is currently loaded only to 3-4 rounds. And in the 5-6 years it has been around as a HD gun I havent even needed that many. I might just unload it and lock it up somewhere since it is more likely that the house will be burglarized while we're gone and the gun stolen than that mutant ninja warriors will stage a midnight raid to seize my stash of hamentaschen.

[The Rabbi]

OK, this must be the technique. I see he is dropping the shell in the chamber, not inserting it in the magazine, which is what I thought.

It still looks like something that would be hard to accomplish under stress.

[ame]

[/ame]

[Im Neero]

mutant ninja warriors will stage a midnight raid to seize my stash of hamentaschen.

[The Rabbi]

Hey, if you ever had my wife's marzipan hamentaschen you'd consider it a serious threat.....

[Guest Todd@CIS]

I used to work with Greg Lee while I was at Metro...I also took my AR Armorer's course from him.

I'll echo BigPoppa...Greg is a fine instructor and truly is a "give the shirt off of his back to you" type of guy.

There are few people I would trust with copies of my housekey...Greg is one of them.

Edited March 5, 2008 by Todd@CIS

[Westwindmike]

BigPoppa,

What shotgun did you use at the course? Capacity? Sling?

Thanks,

[BimmerFreak]

Rabbi

You have never served in the military or been a participant in armed conflict have you?

Ever actually been in a situation where you went black on ammo, and your ability to transition to another system, or reload your current one was the difference between life or death?

Ever used a firearm for anything other than a toy, profit center, hobby, or for killing paper circles?

I think its funny that you continue to joke on anyone that carries something made in this century, or a gun that is capable of holding more than 5 rounds.

I will refrain from posting in here again, as I dont want to take away from the OPs thread.

To the OP:

Sounds like you had a great time, and increased your knowledge and skill set.

Hope you never need to use any of the training you received, but if you do, im sure you will be better prepared than some.

[The Rabbi]

Rabbi

You have never served in the military or been a participant in armed conflict have you?

Ever actually been in a situation where you went black on ammo, and your ability to transition to another system, or reload your current one was the difference between life or death?

Ever used a firearm for anything other than a toy, profit center, hobby, or for killing paper circles?

I think its funny that you continue to joke on anyone that carries something made in this century, or a gun that is capable of holding more than 5 rounds.

No, I never have. Now tell me all about it.

[BigPoppa]

BigPoppa,

What shotgun did you use at the course? Capacity? Sling?

Thanks,

Remington 870 Wingmaster, a retired Manchester PD piece. Capacity is just 4+1, and it's got a cheap nylon sling on it.

A good part of the course was that you have a lot of bonding time with your gun. And I learned that my stock is too long for my short arms, and that the action on my gun is STIFF.

[BigPoppa]

I'll echo BigPoppa...Greg is a fine instructor and truly is a "give the shirt off of his back to you" type of guy.

And Todd and I are both excellent judges of character.

[Guest Todd@CIS]

And Todd and I are both excellent judges of character.

Except for that one beer drinking aberation...

[BigPoppa]

I don't know if I could do it with one hand but I dont really need to as both of mine function just fine.

They do now, but not after you've been stabbed or shot in one of 'em, or fell on it and broke it during a gunfight.

OK, this must be the technique. I see he is dropping the shell in the chamber, not inserting it in the magazine, which is what I thought.

The video clip shows the emergency (gun totally dry) reload, not the tactical (top off when you can) reload that you had originally asked about.

[The Rabbi]

They do now, but not after you've been stabbed or shot in one of 'em, or fell on it and broke it during a gunfight.

If I've been stabbed in the hand then it means the BG is a lot closer than a shotgun will be effective for.

The video clip shows the emergency (gun totally dry) reload, not the tactical (top off when you can) reload that you had originally asked about.

OK, then I am mystified how that's supposed to work. Can you describe it a little?

[Cruel Hand Luke]

I'm thinking they are describing just the plain old "fire one, grab a new one, insert into the mag tube, carry on" type of reload.

It is nothing a 6 year old child couldn't do dexterity wise. You keep the gun shouldered , and just pull a shell either out of the side saddle (if so equipped) or out of your pouch or pocket and push it into the tube. Very common in match shooting and taught in virtually every "combat" shotgun oriented class I am aware of. Shotguns don't hold much ammo. Makes sense to keep 'em topped off......

Edited March 3, 2008 by Cruel Hand Luke

[Guest Grout]

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[strickj]

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