Self Defense via Vehicle Break In?

[DaveTN]

Well said, DaveTN!

Will you be my valen ... uh, lawyer?

If you need a lawyer…. You have screwed up.

[Fallguy]

I absolutely agree with everything you have posted.

But ... she did say you CAN shoot them (via Supreme Court ruling). I know, it sounds stupid. That's why I asked her to repeat, 3 times.

I am going to follow up with her ASAP and start digging for her "evidence" or lack thereof.

She's wrong..it's just that simple.

Just because she is a LEO doesn't mean anything she says is the gospel truth.

[K191145]

You are authorized to use force to protect your property.....just not deadly force. I don't think I could see Joe meth head breaking into my car and just call the police.

If I suspect someone is stealing from my tool shed/out building at night I will investigate before I call in a possible false alarm, and of course I will have a firearm with me. Now I plan not to "just shoot them" unless of course they draw a gun or charge me with a weapon. If they run I plan on letting them go but I will point the gun at them and order them to the ground first. There has been a recent increase in burgularies in my area lately and my neice in Knoxville had her car broken into a couple of weeks ago in an Apartment garage in a so-called low crime area so I'm angrier and more disgusted with scum bag theives than I used to be and if I can help it, i'm not going to allow them to get away with stealing from me. If they want to run well I hope I at least scared the crap out of them, if they comply and lay down I will be excited to press charges against them, if they pull a weapon and threaten my life I plan on shooting and if I kill them then they did that to themselves but I am sick and %@&%ing tired of these low life dirt bag theives getting away from stealing from my family and friends.

[Guest WyattEarp]

I absolutely agree with everything you have posted.

But ... she did say you CAN shoot them (via Supreme Court ruling). I know, it sounds stupid. That's why I asked her to repeat, 3 times.

I am going to follow up with her ASAP and start digging for her "evidence" or lack thereof.

I would also follow up with her supervisor as well just to be safe, she may be giving bad info which could come back on the department. Her Captain or Chief might not like that too much and she may be in need of additional education.

In my experience around police officers, they never say "you're justified to do anything", they encourage you to find the quickest and most harmless way out of a situation without further escalation, and allow the professionals to handle it if at all possible. I have yet to hear a cop cite a Supreme Court ruling, and say you have the right to do x, y, z.

That said, a person may have the right to use the threat of force to prevent theft, however, I believe a person should really weigh his/her options before doing so. Is a few hundred bucks worth of cd's, or tools, or electronics really worth escalating a situation to the point you do shoot someone, and then find yourself on trial because an overzealous prosecutor who happens to be gunning for the governor's seat in the next election thinks he can make an example out of you based on your discretion to use force to make himself look good for the election? Is that few hundred bucks worth of stuff, really worth spending $10,000 on a good defense attorney? (at minimum that's what 50 hours of casework would cost you), and that's just 6.25 business days of trial work (@ 8 hours per day). That's not including depositions, case research and discovery, writing and filing briefs, motions, etc. A good murder trial will cost around $50,000 - $100,000. Not to mention bail money, possibly losing your job because you get charged, having your pic in the news (I've been in the news for something stupid (but not illegal...i just had the misfortune of an overzealous prosecutor wanting to make an example of out of me and yes it was very borderline, but eventually the prosecutor came down off his high horse and realized he had no legal grounds on which to stand.) I did and it's not fun, and spending $2500 on an attorney to represent me, when I could have taken a nice vacation somewhere with that money, wasn't much fun either.) but if you have that money laying around, and you feel like playing russian roulette with your freedom, have at it.

if not, I suggest you think before you act, and I also suggest you keep low comprehensive deductibles on your auto insurance, and low deductibles on your homeowners insurance, and do your best to "mitigate" the loss, meaning, get a good description, if possible, get a picture of the perp, when he leaves, try to follow him without making it apparent, and assist the police in finding him and let them recover the property then press charges. Stuff can be replaced, that's what insurance is for. Life can not.

IMO, if someone's in your car or tool shed or separate garage in the middle of the night, and you see him through the window of your house, you don't need to go be Rambo and pull your gun, because then you're just making the situation worse. Call the cops, let 'em handle it. If you don't go out there, he doesn't feel the need to pull a gun or knife and escalate the situation.

Edited June 30, 2011 by WyattEarp

[Fallguy]

You have the right to use force to protect property, just not deadly force unless self-defense circumstances were to come in to play.

[Guest ArmaDeFuego]

I dont think I personally would use any kind of force to protect property. More than likely I would be armed, & any type of physically altercation would probably rapidly escalate into a deadly force situation, with me ultimately having to explain why I pulled a gun on an unarmed man who wasnt originally any threat to my person. If someone was breaking into my car I'd just hang back, get a description, & call the cops.

Of course, if they came charging towards me without provocation or something the situation would quickly change. But if they are just bothering property I wouldnt involve myself. Too much risk of things going wrong & me having to get a lawyer. Better to stay out of it. Thats what insurance is for right?

[Fallguy]

I have had things stolen from me...I work too hard for what I have to just stand by and watch someone damage it or walk off with it. But that's just me....

[Guest ArmaDeFuego]

I have had things stolen from me...I work too hard for what I have to just stand by and watch someone damage it or walk off with it. But that's just me....

Fallguy?

Grandfather catches burglar stealing items from his home - WKRN, Nashville, Tennessee News, Weather and Sports |

[Fallguy]

I bet ya he thinks twice before stealing again..at least from that guy. For sure more than he would if someone just took down his license plate number, filed a report that went to the bottom of the pile and just waited....

[K191145]

I have had things stolen from me...I work too hard for what I have to just stand by and watch someone damage it or walk off with it. But that's just me....

+1

Alot of people would say it's just property but it's more about principal, I have earned through hard work what I have and the thought of some punk just taking it is extreamly offensive to me. I will do my best to stay within the law but I couldn't just watch and allow them to steal my property. Besides I would bet that alot of LEO's would actually appreciate a citizen detaining some punk they may have been looking for.

[JayC]

I was under the impression that Tennessee's Castle Doctron allows a property owner to CONFRONT someone tresspassing, and or stealing their property weather it be yard shed or vehicle etc. Then if the person threatens or attacks the property owner during the confrotantion he/she may very well be justified in using deadly force to protect their life. That would be different than protecting simple property.

Also I believe that any AGRAVATED CARJACKING is justifiable for using deadly force weather the car jacker has a weapon or not. In Tennessee that is.

It's not the act of carjacking that turns it into a justified shooting, it's our "castle" doctrine which includes vehicles. If somebody forcibly enters your vehicle why occupied you are assumed to be in fear for your life. The same as if they broke into your house....

Doesn't matter if they're carjacking you, or trying to get into the car to beat you down... forcibly entering a persons car uninvited is the same as breaking into their house under TN self defense laws.

[JayC]

This incident was covered in one of the videos you watched to get your carry permit. If you confront a bad guy on your property and he runs away don't shoot... If he turns and moves toward you, I highly doubt you'd ever be charged in TN for shooting the guy dead... reasonable fear for your life and all...

But, if DA's around TN are any indication, if somebody is on your property and night breaking the law, you're going to have to try really hard to get charged with anything.. In the last 18 months we've had cases where homeowner shoots through a door killing an off duty deputy who was trespassing, and was no billed 3 times in a row (and lets be honest if it hadn't been a deputy it would never have even gone to the grand jury to no bill)... and the family who shot a teenager in the leg for playing "ring and run" and no charges were filed. Both clearly didn't meet the definition of the law as it's written today.

My personal opinion, bad guy breaking into your car on your property turns towards you when confronted... is a justified shooting in my book, I'm never going to vote to charge or convict.

If I suspect someone is stealing from my tool shed/out building at night I will investigate before I call in a possible false alarm, and of course I will have a firearm with me. Now I plan not to "just shoot them" unless of course they draw a gun or charge me with a weapon. If they run I plan on letting them go but I will point the gun at them and order them to the ground first. There has been a recent increase in burgularies in my area lately and my neice in Knoxville had her car broken into a couple of weeks ago in an Apartment garage in a so-called low crime area so I'm angrier and more disgusted with scum bag theives than I used to be and if I can help it, i'm not going to allow them to get away with stealing from me. If they want to run well I hope I at least scared the crap out of them, if they comply and lay down I will be excited to press charges against them, if they pull a weapon and threaten my life I plan on shooting and if I kill them then they did that to themselves but I am sick and %@&%ing tired of these low life dirt bag theives getting away from stealing from my family and friends.

[Guest ArmaDeFuego]

But, if DA's around TN are any indication, if somebody is on your property and night breaking the law, you're going to have to try really hard to get charged with anything.. In the last 18 months we've had cases where homeowner shoots through a door killing an off duty deputy who was trespassing, and was no billed 3 times in a row (and lets be honest if it hadn't been a deputy it would never have even gone to the grand jury to no bill)... and the family who shot a teenager in the leg for playing "ring and run" and no charges were filed. Both clearly didn't meet the definition of the law as it's written today.

Yep thats one good thing about Tennessee. Law enforcement around here seems to be fairly sympathetic to law-abiding citizens who are forced into defending themselves. Its not like that everywhere. I remember reading a story a while back about a guy in Colorado who shot & killed a kid who had broken into his home. The kid was armed. The cops STILL tried to pursue charges against the homeowner. He ended up having to get a lawyer & had to spend like $5,000 to clear everything up. Thats BS. And of course the family of the kid he shot whined on & on about how he should have shouted a warning first or just shot to wound.

[QuietDan]

In Texas, for sure. It's stood up in court. There's something called Theft in the Night. You can shoot the burglar on your property.

Otherwise, not too sure. Don't know if there's been test cases in Tennessee.

[K191145]

This incident was covered in one of the videos you watched to get your carry permit. If you confront a bad guy on your property and he runs away don't shoot... If he turns and moves toward you, I highly doubt you'd ever be charged in TN for shooting the guy dead... reasonable fear for your life and all...

But, if DA's around TN are any indication, if somebody is on your property and night breaking the law, you're going to have to try really hard to get charged with anything.. In the last 18 months we've had cases where homeowner shoots through a door killing an off duty deputy who was trespassing, and was no billed 3 times in a row (and lets be honest if it hadn't been a deputy it would never have even gone to the grand jury to no bill)... and the family who shot a teenager in the leg for playing "ring and run" and no charges were filed. Both clearly didn't meet the definition of the law as it's written today.

My personal opinion, bad guy breaking into your car on your property turns towards you when confronted... is a justified shooting in my book, I'm never going to vote to charge or convict.

No situation will be the same but I would have to make the assumption that someone who would still charge me knowing that I was armed is either a drugged or psychotic person and there is a real danger of him taking my weapon, in my opinion shooting would be justified then. Also a home break in or home invasion where the invaders know people are at home makes the invaders much more dangerous people than a common burgular trying not to be seen, one would have to assume that they will definatly kill you so in my book, shooting a home invader without question is justified. At night even with a good light visibility is still poor, It's hard to determine if they have a weapon or not, if it's an out building burgurly I PLAN on ordering them to show their hands and laying flat on the ground and hope they do it. I say that I PLAN on doing that, or it's what I tell myself I will do but we all know that what we plan and what we will do can be two different things, we are not 100% sure untill we face that situation.

[JayC]

And that is exactly how TN law is currently written, it's assumed somebody bold enough to break into your house poses a threat of serious bodily injury or death. The same for your car, and any out building, screen porch, etc.

We're in complete agreement.

No situation will be the same but I would have to make the assumption that someone who would still charge me knowing that I was armed is either a drugged or psychotic person and there is a real danger of him taking my weapon, in my opinion shooting would be justified then. Also a home break in or home invasion where the invaders know people are at home makes the invaders much more dangerous people than a common burgular trying not to be seen, one would have to assume that they will definatly kill you so in my book, shooting a home invader without question is justified. At night even with a good light visibility is still poor, It's hard to determine if they have a weapon or not, if it's an out building burgurly I PLAN on ordering them to show their hands and laying flat on the ground and hope they do it. I say that I PLAN on doing that, or it's what I tell myself I will do but we all know that what we plan and what we will do can be two different things, we are not 100% sure untill we face that situation.

[Fallguy]

And that is exactly how TN law is currently written, it's assumed somebody bold enough to break into your house poses a threat of serious bodily injury or death. The same for your car, and any out building, screen porch, etc.

We're in complete agreement.

Yes, as long as you or "family, a member of the household or a person visiting as an invited guest" are in there.

[Guest ArmaDeFuego]

I have had things stolen from me...I work too hard for what I have to just stand by and watch someone damage it or walk off with it. But that's just me....

If you did confront them & an altercation ensued & you ended up shooting them, they could sue you & end up taking a lot more than what they were gonna steal from you. As I read the law, the protection against them suing you only applies if you are justified in using deadly force, which you wouldnt be if you were only trying to protect property.

If criminals can sue a store for breaking into a business & getting injured while doing so, imagine what they can do to you if you shoot them & cant claim self defense because you initiated the altercation?

I still say call the police. An insurance deductible is gonna be a lot less expensive in the long run than having to hire a lawyer, miss days from work to go to court, etc etc. But hey, to each their own. If you wanna take on an addict stealing the change out of your car for his next fix, go right ahead.

[K191145]

If you did confront them & an altercation ensued & you ended up shooting them, they could sue you & end up taking a lot more than what they were gonna steal from you. As I read the law, the protection against them suing you only applies if you are justified in using deadly force, which you wouldnt be if you were only trying to protect property.

If criminals can sue a store for breaking into a business & getting injured while doing so, imagine what they can do to you if you shoot them & cant claim self defense because you initiated the altercation?

I still say call the police. An insurance deductible is gonna be a lot less expensive in the long run than having to hire a lawyer, miss days from work to go to court, etc etc. But hey, to each their own. If you wanna take on an addict stealing the change out of your car for his next fix, go right ahead.

Like I said before it's not simply just property, it's the principal of the matter. I've been a good law abiding citizen all my life, worked hard for all that I have and obtained it legally. The property can be replaced but it's too offensive for me to just allow some scumbag to violate my home or outbuilding and just take what I have worked for. I will confront them, I will also call the police but I wont wait for them, giving the scumbag time to get away. Like I said if he runs away I don't plan to shoot him but if he charges me that is his decision to start an altercation, not mine. I've been on a Cheatham County Tennessee jury for a law suit over a car accident and we wern't very liberal in our judgement, I would say that same jury is not going to give some criminal one dime for getting injured committing a crime. If they get themselves hurt or killed it's all their fault.

[Fallguy]

If you did confront them & an altercation ensued & you ended up shooting them, they could sue you & end up taking a lot more than what they were gonna steal from you. As I read the law, the protection against them suing you only applies if you are justified in using deadly force, which you wouldnt be if you were only trying to protect property.

If criminals can sue a store for breaking into a business & getting injured while doing so, imagine what they can do to you if you shoot them & cant claim self defense because you initiated the altercation?

I still say call the police. An insurance deductible is gonna be a lot less expensive in the long run than having to hire a lawyer, miss days from work to go to court, etc etc. But hey, to each their own. If you wanna take on an addict stealing the change out of your car for his next fix, go right ahead.

I'm not going to shoot them over just property, but I may if it turned to a self-defense situation...as the law specifically allows. Also I will call the police...I'm multi-tasking like that...

Situations are fluid...just because it starts out as a property situation and may use non-deadly force to try and stop it, doesn't mean it can't turn into a self-defense situation where deadly force would be legal. I just want to be prepared, as I am everyday anyway...I don't think you should be penalized for that.

I don't see how I initiated the confritation when they were the ones that broke into my property...

Edited July 7, 2011 by Fallguy

[K191145]

I don't see how I initiated the confritation when they were the ones that broke into my property...

++++1

Also I lock my doors to my home when I leave somewhere knowing that a burgurlar can still come through a window and steal some of my guns, I have always hated it when certain idiots try to blame gun owners for theives stealing their guns when all the blame is on the theif. Kinda like blaming a rape victim for wearing a low cut shirt or showing too much skin. The criminal is solely responsible of whatever happens to them.

[Guest ArmaDeFuego]

I'm not going to shoot them over just property, but I may if it turned to a self-defense situation...as the law specifically allows. Also I will call the police...I'm multi-tasking like that...

Situations are fluid...just because it starts out as a property situation and may use non-deadly force to try and stop it, doesn't mean it can't turn into a self-defense situation where deadly force would be legal. I just want to be prepared, as I am everyday anyway...I don't think you should be penalized for that.

I don't see how I initiated the confritation when they were the ones that broke into my property...

Have you guys that say you would get riled up if someone steals something from you ever had anything stolen from you?

[Guest FHTMcrt]

Have you guys that say you would get riled up if someone steals something from you ever had anything stolen from you?

I've had a Jeep Cherokee stolen from 25 feet away from my bedroom window and a Chevy S-10 stolen from a downtown parking garage; a $400 Husqvarna chain saw and a chain hoist stolen from my garage with me in the next room (they left a trail of other stuff across the lawn when they heard me coming)...does that count?

[Guest ArmaDeFuego]

I've had a Jeep Cherokee stolen from 25 feet away from my bedroom window and a Chevy S-10 stolen from a downtown parking garage; a $400 Husqvarna chain saw and a chain hoist stolen from my garage with me in the next room (they left a trail of other stuff across the lawn when they heard me coming)...does that count?

Yep that would count. And do you feel more strongly against it now that it has happened to you?

What I'm getting at is that I have never had anything stolen from me really that I can remember. Not anything big anyways. (Knock on wood.) I might have stronger feelings against it if it happens to me some day.

Someone vandalized my car though a year or so ago. They busted the back glass out with a rock. It didnt really bother me. I just called the insurance company & they sent a guy to my house to repair it the next day. I didnt even have to pay a deductible since I have comprehensive coverage.

[Fallguy]

Have you guys that say you would get riled up if someone steals something from you ever had anything stolen from you?

See post 32