1 dead, 1 injured in Ashland City shooting

[Fallguy]

Whoops sorry yea, maybe I misunderstood you.

If someone starts punching me while I am carrying I wouldnt just stand there & take it. I was talking about before it comes to blows. I thought your slapping thing was a metaphor. If you are talking about someone physically slapping me then yea, thats a different story. I wouldnt just "turn my cheek" on a physical assault.

Yes, I was talking about being physically assaulted. I agree you should avoid an altercation if you can, but sometimes the other party just may make it impossible.

To me it seems that some have said you just have to take it and/or run away. ...but perhaps I have misunderstood others.

[DaveTN]

Yes, I was talking about being physically assaulted. I agree you should avoid an altercation if you can, but sometimes the other party just may make it impossible.

To me it seems that some have said you just have to take it and/or run away. ...but perhaps I have misunderstood others.

Maybe we are all misunderstanding each other. I’m not saying you have to take a punch in the face and do nothing.

I’m saying that short of an unprovoked attack I just can’t seem to think of a scenario where I would be getting punched in the face without being an active participant in some type of argument/road rage/ whatever.

Are you saying that you think you can be an active participant in a road rage incident, pull off the road, get in an argument, get punched in the face, and then be justified in pulling a gun?

[Fallguy]

Maybe we are all misunderstanding each other. I’m not saying you have to take a punch in the face and do nothing.

I’m saying that short of an unprovoked attack I just can’t seem to think of a scenario where I would be getting punched in the face without being an active participant in some type of argument/road rage/ whatever.

Are you saying that you think you can be an active participant in a road rage incident, pull off the road, get in an argument, get punched in the face, and then be justified in pulling a gun?

I'm not sure if a single punch in the face ever justifies pulling a gun.

But what I'm saying is...if you cut someone of (but didn't know it) stop at your destination, the other person jumps out and starts yelling at you and as you try to walk of they grab you and punch you....I think you could punch back. But it sounded to me (at least it used to) that many were saying since you were armed it is better to just keep trying to run away.

I wonder if some think that because if the other guy is physically stronger and didn't stop or grabbed some type of weapon at later point...there may become a point where you are in fear of death or serious bodily harm and because you didn't walk away earlier you wouldn't be justified in using deadly force. I don't agree with that either.

[Makiaveli]

Link

That news story shows that a single punch can lead to death apparently. So while I agree that retreat, if it can be accomplished safely, is the best option, if you can't then use the necessary force to extract yourself from the situation.

[DaveTN]

I'm not sure if a single punch in the face ever justifies pulling a gun.

But what I'm saying is...if you cut someone of (but didn't know it) stop at your destination, the other person jumps out and starts yelling at you and as you try to walk of they grab you and punch you....I think you could punch back. But it sounded to me (at least it used to) that many were saying since you were armed it is better to just keep trying to run away.

You are describing an unprovoked attack. I don’t think the cops the DA or a Judge/Jury would have a problem with you pulling a gun. If you shoot the person is a whole other level.

I wonder if some think that because if the other guy is physically stronger and didn't stop or grabbed some type of weapon at later point...there may become a point where you are in fear of death or serious bodily harm and because you didn't walk away earlier you wouldn't be justified in using deadly force. I don't agree with that either.

If you are a willing participant and you have let your mouth overload your azz, there would have to be one heck of a disparity of force for the Police not to arrest you for pulling a gun. And a punch in the face during an argument that you are a willful participant in would not justify pulling a gun. But that’s just my opinion. Take your azz whipping or whip his azz whatever… go home and lick your wounds.

Here’s what I’m saying…. If I were the responding Officer to a road rage incident and two grown men, one of them that are supposedly responsible enough to carry a gun, were acting like children and got in a fight, and then they called the law because a gun came into play… I’m probably arresting the guy that brought a gun to a fist fight.

Here’s another reason to walk away from a fight… My weapon is properly secured all the time, usually by a thumb break holster. That comes from working the streets as a Police Officer and seeing guns go sliding across the pavement too many times; good guys and bad guys both (Running/Fighting/jumping fences). There was a thread about that here and the popular opinion was that most didn’t need to secure their weapons because they were never going to participate in activity that would require it. Except now you have introduced a gun in the situation; a gun you may no longer be in control of.

Based on what little information the press is giving us….

Two guys were actively engaged in a road rage incident. One pulled a gun on the opther and shot him twice. The guy that had been shot then took the shooters gun away from him and killed him with it. These guys should have had their fight and went home alive. But a gun was introduced and one is dead and one is going to trial.

[Guest ArmaDeFuego]

Based on what little information the press is giving us….

Two guys were actively engaged in a road rage incident. One pulled a gun on the opther and shot him twice. The guy that had been shot then took the shooters gun away from him and killed him with it. These guys should have had their fight and went home alive. But a gun was introduced and one is dead and one is going to trial.

Agreed. A lot of things seems to have went wrong in this case. It basically turned into a giant flustercluck.

Dude shouldnt have followed other dude into the parking lot. If he did want to follow him & get into a fistfight with him to make him feel like a bigger man because his pride was hurt because he got cut off in traffic or whatever, he should have just stuck to punching him. If he saw he was getting his ass beat he should have taken the beating. When he introduced the gun to the situation he REALLY screwed up, & in my mind ended up paying for that dumb mistake with his life.

Of course both are ultimately at fault for their separate actions. But like I said, its just a giant flustercluck.

[Guest ArmaDeFuego]

A little update on this story:

County prepares for murder trials | The Tennessean | tennessean.com

Looks like the trial started a few days ago. I wonder how long it will last? I'm assuming a verdict hasnt been rendered yet as I havent seen anything about it.....

I also found this other link over at the TFA forums, which gives a hearsay account of what supposedly happened that day:

Tennessee Firearms Assoc. Inc. • View topic - Ashland City Shooting

I'm interested to see how the trial turns out. If they really have all those witnesses that can say that he was running around saying "I'M GOING TO KILL HIM" & "YOU'RE GONNA DIE!!" then I really dont see how he can get out of a voluntary manslaughter charge......

[Guest WyattEarp]

sounds like Dickens is a moron and is going to jail for a long time, and deservedly so. threat of bodily injury or harm was no longer imminent the minute Paul ran away. Dickens didnt help himself with the "I'm gonna kill him" and "you're gonna die" statements.

[TMF]

sounds like Dickens is a moron and is going to jail for a long time, and deservedly so. threat of bodily injury or harm was no longer imminent the minute Paul ran away. Dickens didnt help himself with the "I'm gonna kill him" and "you're gonna die" statements.

Well I agree that he committed a crime, but I'm not going to judge his actions. If someone had just shot me a couple of times I don't know what I would do, but I do know I wouldn't be in the right mental state to make any rational decision. I'd like to believe I would react appropriately, but I'm sure if I could still walk and talk my words and actions might not reflect that of calm person.

[Fallguy]

Well I agree that he committed a crime, but I'm not going to judge his actions. If someone had just shot me a couple of times I don't know what I would do, but I do know I wouldn't be in the right mental state to make any rational decision. I'd like to believe I would react appropriately, but I'm sure if I could still walk and talk my words and actions might not reflect that of calm person.

Yeah, some I have talked to have excused his actions (at least to some degree) because he had been shot. But...if it happened as I've read...he was shot because he was attacking, or in other words by his own fault.

People who are drunk aren't in their best mental state, but they can still be charged with DUI etc...because they chose to put themselves into that state.

Will be interesting to see what the final outcome is...

[Makiaveli]

Thats kind of iffy. Basically just comes down to if you could convince a jury that a reasonable person in your situation would have been in imminent fear of serious bodily injury or death. Maybe if the guy was a lot bigger than you or a lot younger..... Generally tho if its just a fist fight you would probably have a hard time proving that shooting the guy was justified. Would probably depend on the circumstances.

For example, in this case in Ashland City I bet that if the guy who died would have lived he would have been charged. He escalated a road rage situation by getting out of his vehicle & arguing, & then pulled his gun on an unarmed man.

There is plenty of evidence out there that one single blow to the head from a punch can cause permanent damage.

I think the more important issue is why are you in the fight? If this guy was headed to the restaurant and was followed to his destination, that's one thing. But if he stopped in order to actually engage the other man in a verbal argument, then he might have been held liable even if the other guy initiated physical force.

But my main point is even me, being a 44 yr old IT nerd, could theoretically whack you hard enough to cause permanent damage to your brain etc. Or cause you to fall thus causing said damage. Even being 6'4", good luck convincing a jury I look "dangerous"

**edit** Oops...thought this was a new thread..didn't realize I had already responded once already. Not deleting it since I said it, but no hard feelings if the mods want to....

[Guest ArmaDeFuego]

Anyone know if you can get court transcripts from Cheatham County? I think this trial would make for an interesting read......

[Guest WyattEarp]

they both had a chance to walk away from the fight and remove themselves from the situation. they both chase to stay and escalate it. they were face to face, and one got mad and swung and connected. I really don't buy it that Paul was justified to pull his gun and shoot Dickens twice just because of his size. if you're that afraid of him, then why would you stay and give him the chance to hit you to begin with? Your damn sneakers are you best friend in that situation, point behind him say what the hell is that, when he looks, you run! a big fat ass like Dickens will have a hard time catching you. run to a store, a gas station, or your truck and get the hell out of there and call the police.

He chose to stay in a confrontational situation instead of stopping the argument, saying im done, this is getting out of control, and it's not worth it and then backing away slowly, until he got to his vehicle or an office and difusing the situation.

Dickens wasn't justified in killing him, because once Paul retreated WITHOUT his gun, the imminent fear of bodily harm and death was over to Dickens. just because you're shot and pissed, doesn't give you the right to then go track someone down who is obviously fleeing and then kill them while raving like a lunatic that he's going to kill him and telling him he's going to die.

[TMF]

Some one posted here before "play stupid games, win stupid prizes." Looks like they both won. I tend to avoid most conflict now that I carry most of the time, but there was a time that I was hotheaded. Getting the crap kicked outa me for it was always a possibility, but if during that confrontation I was shot a couple I'm pretty sure all my subsequent actions would be a blur of fury. I'm not saying he was justified; he shoulda been smarter, but I don't know if I could throw stones here.

[WindHawk]

There was a lot of interest in this at the time, thought I'd post the outcome of the trial.

Manslaughter trial ends in no contest plea

12:56 PM, Jun 26, 2012 |

Written by

Tim Adkins

THE ASHLAND CITY TIMES

A Cheatham County man charged in the June 2011 shooting death of a man in the Owen Place Shopping Center in Ashland City pled no contest last week to voluntary manslaughter.

Ryan Neal Dickens, 35, of Ashland City was given a three-year sentence as part of the plea, said assistant district attorney Bob Wilson.

Circuit Court Judge Larry Wallace will decide on Oct. 16 how Dickens will serve his sentence, Wilson added.

Dickens entered the no contest plea during his June 20 trial.

Wilson said the prosecution had called nine witnesses to the stand and four more were scheduled to appear before the court when Dickens took the plea.

Dickens was originally charged with voluntary manslaughter and reckless endangerment. The latter charge was dismissed, Wilson said.

Dickens faced the charges for his role in the June 20, 2011, shooting death of Shannon Scott Paul, 40, of Ashland City.

Authorities have said that Paul and Dickens were traveling on Highway 12 when they pulled their trucks into the parking lot of Owen Place Shopping Center in Ashland City.

Dickens had an appointment at Star Physical Therapy, a business in the shopping center. Authorities said Paul pulled up next to Dickens, and the two men started arguing. Dickens then allegedly punched Paul.

Paul, who had a valid gun permit, shot Dickens in the jaw and leg, authorities said.

Dickens took the gun away from Paul, who then made his way into Don Pancho Mexican Restaurant.

Dickens followed Paul into the restaurant, and the two men went into the dining area and bar before heading back outside in front of the restaurant. Dickens shot Paul twice, and Paul died at the scene.

Wilson said it was never determined what led the two men to pull into the shopping center parking lot.

[DaveS]

how does someone get shot twice, and still manage to get the gun away from the bad guy and then turn it on him?

1 killed, 1 injured in Ashland City parking lot shooting - WKRN, Nashville, Tennessee News, Weather and Sports |

Maybe it was a "Glock"! let the flames begin!!! lol

[Guest USMC 2013]

I feel bad for both men. The man that died though shouldn't have though. If a person is worth shooting, they're worth killing. You don't stop shooting until they stop moving, period. It's a lot easier dealing with the law when there's only one story.

Joe

[bubbiesdad]

If you can't take a beating, don't carry. Losing a fight is not justification for deadly force. Take your whoopin and move on.

Not being able to take a beating is a reason to carry. But don't go around starting stuff.

[bubbiesdad]

If you're on the ground, incapable of fleeing and they wont stop then make the choice.

Maybe that's the position this guy found himself in. Maybe the steel on his belt made him a little braver then he should have been. In any case nobody needed to die here and either one of them could have just walked away.

But you said you shouldn't carry if you can't take a beating.

[bubbiesdad]

You are describing an unprovoked attack. I don’t think the cops the DA or a Judge/Jury would have a problem with you pulling a gun. If you shoot the person is a whole other level.

If you are a willing participant and you have let your mouth overload your azz, there would have to be one heck of a disparity of force for the Police not to arrest you for pulling a gun. And a punch in the face during an argument that you are a willful participant in would not justify pulling a gun. But that’s just my opinion. Take your azz whipping or whip his azz whatever… go home and lick your wounds.

Here’s what I’m saying…. If I were the responding Officer to a road rage incident and two grown men, one of them that are supposedly responsible enough to carry a gun, were acting like children and got in a fight, and then they called the law because a gun came into play… I’m probably arresting the guy that brought a gun to a fist fight.

Here’s another reason to walk away from a fight… My weapon is properly secured all the time, usually by a thumb break holster. That comes from working the streets as a Police Officer and seeing guns go sliding across the pavement too many times; good guys and bad guys both (Running/Fighting/jumping fences). There was a thread about that here and the popular opinion was that most didn’t need to secure their weapons because they were never going to participate in activity that would require it. Except now you have introduced a gun in the situation; a gun you may no longer be in control of.

Based on what little information the press is giving us….

Two guys were actively engaged in a road rage incident. One pulled a gun on the opther and shot him twice. The guy that had been shot then took the shooters gun away from him and killed him with it. These guys should have had their fight and went home alive. But a gun was introduced and one is dead and one is going to trial.

In TN, you only supposed to draw your gun to use it as a weapon, not to intimidate.

[DaveS]

Wow...this is a year old thread...old news...I'm outta here!

[Guest adamoxtwo]

And the initial shooter, the one that died, was an HCP holder. Not good.

Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

[Guest ArmaDeFuego]

Wow...this is a year old thread...old news...I'm outta here!

The update on the outcome of the trial isnt old news.......

[Makiaveli]

I feel bad for both men. The man that died though shouldn't have though. If a person is worth shooting, they're worth killing. You don't stop shooting until they stop moving, period. It's a lot easier dealing with the law when there's only one story.

Joe

The dead guy CHOSE to stop and argue. If he had kept driving, none of this would've happened. He made a foolish decision and paid for it with his life.

The guy going to jail chose to throw a punch. If he had walked away from the guy who was presumably cussing him out, there wouldn't be a news story. Instead he paid with some bullet holes and probably jail time.

Maybe neither of them were "bad" people, but they acted like thugs and so have to live (or not) with the consequences.

[Guest adamoxtwo]

The dead guy CHOSE to stop and argue. If he had kept driving, none of this would've happened. He made a foolish decision and paid for it with his life.

The guy going to jail chose to throw a punch. If he had walked away from the guy who was presumably cussing him out, there wouldn't be a news story. Instead he paid with some bullet holes and probably jail time.

Maybe neither of them were "bad" people, but they acted like thugs and so have to live (or not) with the consequences.

+1