Self defense on a college campus

[Guest Overtaker]

Many people carry pocket knives, which is a felony offense in TN.

[Guest 270win]

How are pocket knives a felony offense at a school property as long as the pocket knife is not over 4 inches, not a hawk bill knife, bowie knife, switch blade? I do not see anywhere in the penal code where a regular spyderco pocket knife is a felony offense or even a straight blade knife under 4 inches is a misdemeanor or felony.

[Guest WyattEarp]

what about a stun gun?

you can also use a straw (cap your thumb firmly over one end) and you can kill someone with it, if you put it in the right spot (neck, jugular, carotid, eye ball, etc).

it's true. The only legal whistles are ones that go to the tune of rocky top

it's a general consensus of the people of Tennessee that the sound and meaning of the Rocky Top tune has been long obsolete and will remain irrelevant for many more years to come

[Fallguy]

How are pocket knives a felony offense at a school property as long as the pocket knife is not over 4 inches, not a hawk bill knife, bowie knife, switch blade? I do not see anywhere in the penal code where a regular spyderco pocket knife is a felony offense or even a straight blade knife under 4 inches is a misdemeanor or felony.

39-17-1309((1) It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, with the intent to go armed, any firearm, explosive, explosive weapon, bowie knife, hawk bill knife, ice pick, dagger, slingshot, leaded cane, switchblade knife, blackjack, knuckles or any other weapon of like kind, not used solely for instructional or school-sanctioned ceremonial purposes, in any public or private school building or bus, on any public or private school campus, grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated by any board of education, school, college or university board of trustees, regents or directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution.

39-17-1309(a) As used in this section, “weapon of like kind” includes razors and razor blades, except those used solely for personal shaving, and any sharp pointed or edged instrument, except unaltered nail files and clips and tools used solely for preparation of food, instruction and maintenance.

Most pocket knives I've seen have sharp points and edges.

So in my reading...which could be wrong....unless it is carried without the intent to go armed or for instructional, school-sanctioned ceremonial, preparation of food or maintenance purposes it is technically illegal to carry on a school campus.

[Guest 270win]

I carry a gerber keychain pocket knife as a tool, not as a weapon or the 'intent to go armed'. To me, a pocket knife is a poor weapon. Even a under 4 inch blade spyderco knife isn't much of a weapon and has many uses as a tool and anyone carrying one would be smart to say it is a tool instead of a weapon I guess at a school in TN.

[Guest friesepferd]

my pocket knife is a tool. I use it to open boxes, to cut rope, to slice apples. I do not carry my knife as an intent to go armed. I really don't.

Having said that, I also realize that many items I have on my could be used as a weapon in self defense if need be. My knife, my pen, this pair of scissors next to me, my flashlight, shoestring.. etc.

[Fallguy]

Since intent is part of the crime and would have to be proved I'm going to guess that is why people aren't being arrested left and right for carrying their pocket knives on school grounds as long as it stays in their pocket and nothing happens.

Of course students, even in colleges, may face more scrutiny. Also if anyone has ever watched Campus PD on tv....it seems sometimes campus police can be a bit more strict......

[Oh Shoot]

I carry a gerber keychain pocket knife as a tool, not as a weapon or the 'intent to go armed'. To me, a pocket knife is a poor weapon. Even a under 4 inch blade spyderco knife isn't much of a weapon and has many uses as a tool and anyone carrying one would be smart to say it is a tool instead of a weapon I guess at a school in TN.

Notice that the "tool" part is obviously intended to mean a tool used ON campus. It's going to be tough to justify if you don't even have a job there, or one where such a "tool" could conceivably be used.

Bottom line is, like in most situations, it's just not going to come up. You don't get searched at colleges, unless something else has happened. Odds are, even if a campus LEO sees a knife (maybe not such a good idea to use the pocket clip, eh?), he's probably not going to freak either. BUT, the law is what it is, and folks need to be aware of the risk. Any felony, even Class E, can be a life changer.

- OS

[Erik88]

I see students walking around campus with pocket knives clipped on their pockets quite often. I'm 3 weeks away from graduation so I'm not going to risk getting expelled. My knife stays at home.

[Guest 270win]

I honestly never knew or thought it was illegal to carry an ordinary knife (as long as not carried as a weapon/intent to go armed) at a school in Tennessee, especially a pocket knife that is not carried as a weapon. I assumed over 4 inch was illegal, or switch blades, bowies. I never gave much thought to my wimpy case pen knives, gerber multi tool keychain knife. I know schools may have policies but not being a student I never have been concerned about policies.

[Guest friesepferd]

Notice that the "tool" part is obviously intended to mean a tool used ON campus. It's going to be tough to justify if you don't even have a job there, or one where such a "tool" could conceivably be used.

Bottom line is, like in most situations, it's just not going to come up. You don't get searched at colleges, unless something else has happened. Odds are, even if a campus LEO sees a knife (maybe not such a good idea to use the pocket clip, eh?), he's probably not going to freak either. BUT, the law is what it is, and folks need to be aware of the risk. Any felony, even Class E, can be a life changer.

- OS

I will of course admit that there is some risk. But personally, when I was at school, I used my knife often as a tool ON CAMPUS.

As an engineering student, there were hands on labs i were involved in for example, where a knife really was a great tool to have. I also did some undergraduate research for profs, same thing. I guess it depends on what you are doing, but for a lot of people at least I can see a knife being easily justifyable as a tool.

Then again, I was also legally able to carry my gun on campus (if not in a classroom - michigan)

[Oh Shoot]

I will of course admit that there is some risk. But personally, when I was at school, I used my knife often as a tool ON CAMPUS.

...

Regarding much law enforcement, if you're not perceived as a nail sticking up, you won't get hammered.

- OS

[Guest pfries]

An "un-tactical" pen - the Zebra F-701 - ordinary click type ballpoint pen with stainless steel barrel. Quite substantial, and $5-something at Walmart, too.

A rolled magazine properly used is an effective baton and blunt jabbing weapon also.

The body’s natural fight or flight response kicks in during a self defense situation; one of the aspects of this is your palms sweat, the smaller frame of a Bic or the F-701 is not easily held onto even with my smaller hands. The tactical pens have a larger clip that allows a finger to lock in. Many of them also have some knurling along with a thicker body much like some executive pens, and many are not so tacti-cool looking as to draw attention.

Yes a Bic pen, pencil or hairspray will do in a pinch but I choose the tactical pen as line of defense (although fairly far down on the list I do carry it daily).

As far as price goes $20 and I have spent that on quality pens in the past.

Just my

[ttocswob]

The Zebra has about 1-1/8" of knurling, and is somewhat thicker and substantially heavier that the typical ballpoint.

My point is not that it is "better than tactical", but that it will do in a pinch; and is less likely to be confiscated as a "weapon" in a restricted school zone.

[JayC]

Most pocket knives I've seen have sharp points and edges.

So in my reading...which could be wrong....unless it is carried without the intent to go armed or for instructional, school-sanctioned ceremonial, preparation of food or maintenance purposes it is technically illegal to carry on a school campus.

That intent to go armed language is so up in the air... I couldn't find a single case in the last 10 years of somebody being convicted for having a pocket knife under 4 inches on a college campus in TN.

Is there any case law to back up that simply carrying a sub-4 inch knife has been ruled as intent to go armed?

[Fallguy]

Is there any case law to back up that simply carrying a sub-4 inch knife has been ruled as intent to go armed?

Not sure, is there any that it isn't though.

No case is not as good as finding a guess where someone was charged and the court ruled that it wasn't.

[Oh Shoot]

That intent to go armed language is so up in the air... I couldn't find a single case in the last 10 years of somebody being convicted for having a pocket knife under 4 inches on a college campus in TN.

Is there any case law to back up that simply carrying a sub-4 inch knife has been ruled as intent to go armed?

Well, intent to go armed doesn't have anything to do with the length of the blade as far as the schools statute is concerned; that's why it's not mentioned.

It's not illegal to carry a 4" or less blade with intent to go armed, except on school property. Certainly, carrying a blade of any length for self defense IS intent to go armed in TN.

Of course, in reality, I'm sure you're right, and I've opined same several times -- you'd have to be causing some type of additional ruckus to get charged with that on a college campus. Unlike a gun, where if simply seen at all, that's likely all it would take to get popped.

Really needs to be a distinction in the statutes for college vs grammar and/or high schools. And of course, HCP holders should be able to carry heaters on any campus in the state that accepts state funding.

- OS

Edited June 17, 2011 by OhShoot

[JayC]

I agree the size of the knife doesn't matter, but with the intent to go armed language being so vague under current state law it just seems a long shot you'd get charged... and it seems case law would indicate that is the case... Think about it, if you could be charged for no other reason than having a pocket knife, then a college professor could be charged with having a letter opener I agree, OS something else is going on to get noticed and charged...

Well you know my opinion of the poorly crafted 'intent to go armed' language we have here in TN... Not only do we have college campuses we can't carry on, but we have roving felony zones all over the state because of that poor wording. Anywhere there is a school or university sponsored activity automatically becomes a felony zone (and if the AG is to be believed they don't have to bother posting).

We need to change the school weapons laws to only apply to minor students. Not to law abiding adults.

Well, intent to go armed doesn't have anything to do with the length of the blade as far as the schools statute is concerned; that's why it's not mentioned.

It's not illegal to carry a 4" or less blade with intent to go armed, except on school property. Certainly, carrying a blade of any length for self defense IS intent to go armed in TN.

Of course, in reality, I'm sure you're right, and I've opined same several times -- you'd have to be causing some type of additional ruckus to get charged with that on a college campus. Unlike a gun, where if simply seen at all, that's likely all it would take to get popped.

Really needs to be a distinction in the statutes for college vs grammar and/or high schools. And of course, HCP holders should be able to carry heaters on any campus in the state that accepts state funding.

- OS

[Guest BritishShooter]

Thanks everyone for all of your responses, after looking up the law it for sure is a felony to carry a knife on school property...even private school. But this is definatly not common knowledge where im at school and if it is, no one cares. I have actually had a conversation with a Campus PD LEO sergeant who commended a pupil for carrying a knife and using it to fend off an attempted robbery, pretty sure the incident occured off campus though.

I think I am just going to purchase a taser and carry discreetly. It is a last resort, wouldnt use it unless I had to and it is not against the law unlike batons and knives are. If it comes to the point where i have to use whatever weapon i am carrying I would rather have to deal with student board of conduct than a jury.

[Guest tngw1500se]

You can have a heavy walking cane.

[JAB]

I looked at the Zebra stainless steel pens at Walmart yesterday and didn't see the exact model that was mentioned earlier in this thread. If I buy one, I want to do the 'mods' I have seen listed for the earlier mentioned model where you can build a pen with no markings and even turn it into a 'space pen' if you want. Therefore, I didn't buy any. It did occur to me, however, that the pens they had were pretty skinny and that it might be challenging to get a good grip on them to use as a defensive tool.

One cool thing I did see is that Sharpie is now making a marker with a stainless steel body and cap. The body of it is the style that is cylindrical and tapered on each end and it was about as big around as my middle finger (I don't have thin fingers.) If I carried a messenger bag, etc.(and I have considered it) then I'd probably have one of those markers in one of the pen/pencil/marker sleeves that are usually found just behind the main flap. If I remember right, they were around seven bucks and look pretty nice.

Now, for the question of ,"Which one of y'all was it?"

While I was standing there, looking at the pens, a fellow walked up who I think was probably a TGO member. This person selected a package of the stainless Zebra pens - went almost straight to them. This made me think that he knew what pens he wanted because if I am just looking for a pen as a writing instrument, I tend to browse at least a little to compare nibs, ink color and so on and I think most folks do the same. However, something about his body language led me to believe that these pens were a 'new' thing for him and not pens that he has used, before. From that, I deduced (possibly incorrectly) that he was looking for those pens because of this thread. Curious, I checked his waistline for signs of a holster, etc. and sure enough he was carrying - which furthered my belief that he might be a fellow member. So...

Which one of you was it at Walmart in Lenoir City on the afternoon/evening of Sunday June 19, 2011? Just based on what I could get from peripheral vision,you are in your mid-twenties, a bit over six feet tall, were wearing a black, printed t-shirt and black cap. You were carrying a semiauto pistol OWB on your right hip. I couldn't tell from what I could see the type of the pistol but it wasn't a subcompact - possibly even a full duty-sized gun and my guess (from my memory of the size of the muzzle) is that it was a .40 cal. or, possibly, a .45. Oh, and you bought some Zebra pens.

Yeah, I should have introduced myself but just saying, "Hey, you belong to TGO, don't you," seemed a bit awkward - especially if i had been wrong. If the person had been alone I still might have done so but he was with his family so I didn't.

Edited June 20, 2011 by JAB

[soapy]

Get a Scribe and put it in your little pocket protector

http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll12/klang1/DSC04928.jpg

[QuietDan]

Campus Carry?

A 60-lumen Surefire brand E2D flashlight with the crenelated bezel, attached with a snap ring to my bundle of keys. It's bright enough to blind/disorient at night, the flashlight in the throat or side of the head will cut the bad guy up, and held in the hand with the keys used as a flail will realy slice a perp up. Walking tall with a "don't f*** with me" attitude means most coward-perps will find an easier target. Have a nice day.

[Guest stevieb615]

http://www.tn.gov/attorneygeneral/op/2009/op/op129.pdf

according to that, my gun stays in my car and my kershaw stays hidden until needed.