News ya can be happy with -- "Dr. Death" dead!

[Oh Shoot]

... As it is I'm a DNR and NHM. ..

Presume "Do Not Resuscitate", but what's NHM?

- OS

[leroy]

All:____________

I am surprised by the hornet's nest this has sitirred up; but that's ok. I'll give a bit of my thinking on this touchy subject.

RE: The alleged heinousness of The Kevorkian/Mengele association. Is it a stretch?

Consider these facts: Both were men of medicine. Both took an oath to "do no harm"; a widely understood and universally accepted ethical position for physicians. One "studied the dying process" on willing folks. One studied the "dying process" on unwilling folks. In the big leagues batting 333 will keep you on the team roster, and make you a star. In the kevorkian/mengele medical school and dying research center; the batting average is 667. No one has ever hit 667.

RE: Watching a loved one die with a debilitating disease and seeing the suffering.

My own life experiences: I'm old enough to have seen several loved ones die with terrible sicknesses; seeing them go little by little each day. My maternal grandmother died of liver cancer when i was a small boy. My mother and aunt took care of her until she died (...this was in the mid 50's...). She lingered a long time and suffered much. No one there (...including my grandmother...) entertained the idea of taking her life to lessen her suffering. They (...and the doctors...) did all they could to make her comfortable. It was a relief when she passed; but not once did anyone speak out the idea of hestening her death.

I saw a similar situation when a dear aunt died of enphysemia. She lingered long and suffered much. Again, no thought of hastening her end. She was loved and made as comfortable as possible.

RE: The ethical issue of physician assisted suicide.

Those that believe in this practice or even believe it is a genuine, reasonable, humanitarian service provided to a willing participant (...which i somewhat think it is, in some cases...) need to ask themselves this one question, and then think deeply about it a bit.

The question is this: "Is it ethical for a physician who has taken an oath to "do no harm" to assist a suicide? My take is that if it is ok; then oaths and affirmations taken by doctors, lawyers, judges, polititians, marriage vows, ect mean nothing if they can be laid down and taken up depending on circumstances. That my brother (...and sister...) opiners is situational ethics--a concept that is conflict with its very definition. There is simply no such thing. In the vernacular of the hillside: Todays truth can be tomorrows lie, depending on the whim of those who make the decision. To change this, all those in power need to do is to simply change their mind without fear of penalty. Viola; todays truth is tommorrows lie! That simply means that there is no ultimate (...in human terms...) truth. If that is so, everyone is free to do whatever he, she, or it wants to do for their own personal gratification and purpose no matter the damage done to others if they are weak or debilitated in some manner. This effectively voids any and all laws and obligations, and sanctions murder of the weaker by the stronger.

The definition of "ethics" is that set of immutable values that remain true and unchanging no matter what the culture decides; as opposed to "morals" which are consensus whims made up by whatever the particular cultural whim is at that particular time in pop culture. Morals and ethics aint the same thing. If you believe as Friedirch Nietzsche, "...That if God be dead, all things are permissible...". This is an ok thing to do; why not; you make the rules.

If you believe in a Creator and in in a set of ultimate rights and wrongs; the idea of a physician breaking his oath to "do no harm" and taking money to end a life has an odious stench to it. That's exactly where i am on this one and i will make no apology for it.

You that think that this is ok are a short step from intellectually accepting the proposed Obama Death Panels. Remember this, Stalin and Hitler had "Death Panels" too. They were made up of bureaucrats, monsters, and willing physicians too.

I'm old enough to have more time behind me than before me. That means that when i come to the end of my journey down here; i want to have some confidence that the physician attending me does not subscribe to the Kevorkian/Mengele school of medical ethics. My wish is to be made as comfortable as can be done; not murdered for convenience.

Hope this sheds some light on my incenderary comments. They are, indeed, heart felt opinions. Your mileage and opinions may vary.

I'll close with this: Be careful what you choose to believe; these issues have a way of comming back around. As a dear friend (...now gone on to his reward...) used to say. "....That which is considered absurd, unthinkable, and outlandish today will be the norm in a generation...." Remember to read my little voltaire quote on my signature line. It speaks volumes.

By the way caster. RE: this.

...Who are you to tell me and my friend or paid associate what we can and cannot do when the end result does not effect you or anyone else.....

I aint "presumin to tell you anything you cannot do". Remember this; the body of laws you live under does just what you dont like and are calling me out for doing every day, and they make it stick. Havin said all that; dont expect me to give my approval to whatever you want to do. I aint obligated to give it. Nor are you to accept it. I would take a baby aspirin and calm down if i wuz you.

leroy

Edited June 3, 2011 by leroy

[Reservoir Dog]

Presume "Do Not Resuscitate", but what's NHM?

- OS

NHM = No Heroic Measures

[BryanP]

NHM= No Heroic Measures

[Oh Shoot]

NHM = No Heroic Measures

NHM= No Heroic Measures

Thanks, guys

- OS

[Guest DELETED]

leroy, I'm not sure you understand. The people that Dr. Kevorkian helped chose themselves to die after exhausting all medical possibilities and options. They were in pain and had no quality of life. You are making it sound as if he killed people because they were old or sick. The choice to die with a little dignity wasn't up to him (or you, for that matter), it was up to the patient. If you are against assisted suicide, then by all means, don't do it. If your wish is to be made as comfortable as possible then that is exactly what you should do.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

He did kill people. It doesn't matter of the individual circumstances of those he killed. There is something

in the Hippocratic Oath that says something like "First, do no harm". When anyone takes another's life

what else can you call it?

If you want to die, stand in front of a train. I can almost positively guarantee you will be successful. I

won't be at fault, either, but don't go asking a doctor to kill you.

Kevorkian can rot in Hell, as far as I am concerned.

[Jasongar8]

I have no problem with what he did. I am of the opinion that he helped those people leave the physical world in a comfortable way. It was also in a way that was less traumatic to their family. I think it is better that way than for their family to find them with their brains blown all over the bathroom, or all over the front of a train as some have suggested.

[Caster]

By the way caster. RE: this. I aint "presumin to tell you anything you cannot do". Remember this; the body of laws you live under does just what you dont like and are calling me out for doing every day, and they make it stick. Havin said all that; dont expect me to give my approval to whatever you want to do. I aint obligated to give it. Nor are you to accept it. I would take a baby aspirin and calm down if i wuz you.

leroy

No, you misunderstand me sir. I certainly wasn't "Calling you out" It was just a question, and as is the difficulty in forum discussions, what I wanted to say/ask rides a fine line between an honest question and a venom filled hateful comment. I wasn't wound up, I was very calm.

Actually I was raised to believe suicide = damnation. I don't agree 100% but that's another can of worms.

[Caster]

He did kill people. It doesn't matter of the individual circumstances of those he killed. There is something

in the Hippocratic Oath that says something like "First, do no harm". When anyone takes another's life

what else can you call it?

If you want to die, stand in front of a train. I can almost positively guarantee you will be successful. I

won't be at fault, either, but don't go asking a doctor to kill you.

Kevorkian can rot in Hell, as far as I am concerned.

I think I can understand where you are coming from. If I can't, I'm trying, but would you consider keeping a person alive, who doesn't want to continue, and is in excruciating pain "Do no harm?" We don't know what's on the other side for fact and for certain. We only have our faith or lack thereof. BUT, from what we can ascertain, pain from cancer, disease, ect. ends at death. Seems like a merciful fate does less harm than prolonged suffering. I've never claimed to be a smart man though.

[Caster]

I have no problem with what he did. I am of the opinion that he helped those people leave the physical world in a comfortable way. It was also in a way that was less traumatic to their family. I think it is better that way than for their family to find them with their brains blown all over the bathroom, or all over the front of a train as some have suggested.

This^ You cannot stop people from ending their own life if they really want it to be over, provided they have the resolve to do so. Well unless you strap them down and feed them through a tube. [AND that's absolutely sadistic]

Better a family know it was a peaceful passing with loads of morphine than a closed casket funeral and something someone had to clean up after.

[leroy]

...leroy, I'm not sure you understand. The people that Dr. Kevorkian helped chose themselves to die after exhausting all medical possibilities and options. They were in pain and had no quality of life. You are making it sound as if he killed people because they were old or sick. The choice to die with a little dignity wasn't up to him (or you, for that matter), it was up to the patient. If you are against assisted suicide, then by all means, don't do it. If your wish is to be made as comfortable as possible then that is exactly what you should do. ...

Boom:__________

I understand completely. I simply do not agree. He (...Kevorkian...) helped kill people (...at their direction, of course; and for a fee im sure...). He did, in fact, kill people because they were sick. All in direct conflict with the oath he took when he became a doctor.

I am, in fact, against assisted suicide. The "death with dignity" pronoucement is thrown around far too losely. Everyone seems to believe in it; but i'm havin a bit of a problem understandin how it is somehow a commodity or service that should be for sale in the medical profession. I understand that in a capitalist society; everything is for sale. I will grant that you are perfectly free to take your own life, and you can buy the stuff to do it off the shelf.

By the way, the State of Michigan didn't see the "death with dignity" arguement either. Check this link out here: Kevorkian Sentenced to 10 to 25 Years in Prison - NYTimes.com .

Caster: RE: This.

....No, you misunderstand me sir. I certainly wasn't "Calling you out" It was just a question, and as is the difficulty in forum discussions, what I wanted to say/ask rides a fine line between an honest question and a venom filled hateful comment. I wasn't wound up, I was very calm.

Actually I was raised to believe suicide = damnation. I don't agree 100% but that's another can of worms. ....

Glad to hear that it wasn't a "venom filled hateful comment". I dont like them.

Thanks for the clarification.

leroy

Edited June 4, 2011 by leroy

[Guest UberDuper]

My only hope is that I go out doing something useful. I'm gonna be pissed if I die in my sleep or something.

[vontar]

to OP.

I don't know if Mengele took the oath.

[leroy]

to OP.

I don't know if Mengele took the oath.

Mengele was, in fact, a doctor. Graduated from the University of Frankfrut. I will grant that he didnt take his oath too seriously either. Bio link here: Josef Mengele

Work samples here: Meet the Notorious Dr. Joseph Mengele.

leroy

[bajabuc]

Presume "Do Not Resuscitate", but what's NHM?

- OS

No Heroic Measures. You can't even do CPR.

[Garufa]

What is this Oath everyone mentions? I've read a couple of different versions of the Modern Hippocratic and like everything else today, each version suits whatever one's argument might be.

Mengele was a Nazi. Card-carrying scientist with unlimited lab resources. To compare Kervorkian to him is absurd IMHO.

One destroyed for "science's" sake (or his own twisted theories). The other tried to help people leave a hopeless life with some dignity.

If the day ever comes where I am in a situation that there is no hope I pray that someone will be there to remove the pain. Forever.

Edited June 4, 2011 by Garufa

[Garufa]

.

Edited June 4, 2011 by Garufa
Quoted myself

[bajabuc]

Thought I was missing something...til I saw the .

[Ebow1]

I skipped a little bit but all I will say is this. Leroy, you got into the ethics of the matter, ethically speaking pretty much the entire human race is in agreement that all human beings have a right to life. If people have a right to live then they have a right to die.

[E4 No More]

"First do no harm"?? The number one cause of death is from iatrogenesis. How do you think the saying "You aren't a doctor until you've killed someone" came about?

[Guest clownsdd]

leroy, let's just say I disagree with you. The others have put it pretty well.

[Guest BenderBendingRodriguez]

I will grant that you are perfectly free to take your own life, and you can buy the stuff to do it off the shelf.

With one exception (for which he was convicted of second degree murder), this is pretty much what Kevorkian was doing. He simply obtained the drugs with which someone could end their life, and put together a machine with which that person could administer those drugs to themself. If it's your position that you're free to take your own life, and you're free to buy the stuff to do yourself in, I don't see what the problem is with someone else putting together an efficient package for you to "buy."

[Guest mosinon]

I'm missing something about this oath part and Mengele. The oath says "Do know harm" or at least the part I remember. In other words "Don't make it worse" So, if someone shows up with a broken arm don't set it at 90 degrees with the bone poking through the skin.

On the other hand if someone has decided it is time to die, and if you don't own your life you own nothing, then they've already decided living is worse than death. Prolonging their life is making it worse and a violation of the oath. Mengele's victim's lacked something that Kervorkian's patient's had and that is choice.

Plus, if my memory serves, Kervorkian actually didn't charge for his services back in the day for legal reasons.

[dats82]

The overriding principle in medical ethics today is autonomy. It is universally accepted that a patient has the right to choose the fate of their care. Generally this refers to the right to refuse care, but the underlying basis is the right to choose what happens to you.

Leroy you stated that ethics do not change with the whims of culture. This could not be further from the truth. With the increasing technology and abilities we now have, principles of ethics have evolved and changed. You spoke about your grandmother in the fifties; autonomy was not accepted in the fifties. It was legally and ethically acceptable for hospitals to hold patients and force care upon them because the powers that be thought it to be the best course of action. Obviously, there exists a conflicted of interest in this type of system, and the short of the history is that autonomy emerged when we developed the ability to basically prolong life as long as we wanted. There are very few cases in which it is acceptable, both legally and ethically, to override a patient's autonomy.

People like to debate the oath with the "do no harm" and "preserve life" and all the good stuff. The definition of harm you seem to have accepted is when one's actions helps to end the physiological life of another. So by this same definition, you would also believe that it would be in violation of the oath to "pull the plug." In both scenarios, it is an individual's choice to elicit an action which terminates physiological life. Through livings wills, durable power of attorneys, or signed consent, in both cases the patient is deciding when physiologic functions will cease.

This leads to another point of debate. What is life? What defines the end of life? This is just as dubious as trying to define an acceptable point for the beginning of life. The problem with this question is that the answers can be as varied as the people answering. My definition of life is not that I have a beating heart or primitive brainstem reflexes, it is that I am able to live as a functional member of society, as a unique individual with my own personality, and exist without being an undue burden on those that I love. With that said, I could very much be of cognoscente mind and viable heart, but my life would be over. So you see, with this perspective, neither Jack nor his patients were actually ending life; they were merely hastening the demise the residual physiologic functions.

The truth be known about, there are some terminal illnesses with such pain that if enough narcotics were given to control the pain, the respiratory drive would be suppressed to the point that the patient would fail to breath. What is more ethically in-line with your thoughts on "do no harm?" Allow the patient to live a few extra days in excruciating pain and at a cost of tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars, or dose to control the pain and drift off into an eternal sleep. I know what I would choose for myself and anyone I love.

Mr. Leroy, I usually agree with your posts, but I am afraid we could not be further from agreement on this subject. I do not expect my opinions or ramblings to change anyone's mind on the matter, but perhaps it will give you some different perspectives to think about.

"Where there is love of medicine, there is love of humankind"

Edited June 4, 2011 by dats82