What Would You Do During a Mall Shooting?

[Guest tcampbell]

I'm with Mars, and it echoes a remark made by Bob Camponovo during my NRA instructor training: everyone else had the same opportunity to get armed and trained as I did. It isn't my fault they didn't do it and I did. I am not there to put myself at risk for someone else. If circumstances force me to shoot, I'll do it. But I'm not going to go look for it. It sounds bad I know, but me and my family come way before anyone else.

+1

[Guest Engloid]

so you get your wife and kids to safety and then run back in to "save the day?" you have extremely large illusions of grandeur if that is what you would do. running back in and getting killed leaving your wife and kids without a husband and father seems pretty stupid to me.

Maybe you have little or no confidence?

as already stated, i would take the shot if i had it and am confident that i would hit what i was aiming at. Come off your tower and have a discussion with the rest of us. Sorry to disappoint, but no one here cares how large your balls are so put them away.

Obviously, you need to grow some.

You guys are so quick to say you'd shoot somebody for stealing from you, but you won't help out when somebody's doing a mass murder and you have the ability to do so. Sounds like a bunch of ******* to me.

ou need to read up on your self defense laws, especially when it pertains to coming to the defense of others. Shoot an innocent person and get put away for some time...doesn't matter if it's an accident or not.

Good Samaritan laws?

Yea, but it'll be ok cuz he's a hero.

You'd rather live and die in shame than die doing something respectful? Your choice.

[Im Neero]

There is no shame in not being stupid. I know some people are simply not capable of understanding, but there are shades of grey. You are putting forth a false dichotomy, you either rashly run in to a terrible situation, or you're a gutless coward. If that's how you see it, good for you, but it's stupid.

Good luck trying to find a good samaratin law that covers your ass if you shoot an innocent person under any circumstances, especially if you knowingly put yourself into an easily avoided and extremely dangerous situation.

[Guest canynracer]

there are folks on this thread who HAVE been shot at, and have probably turned some people into fertilizer during the gunfights they were in. They are trained to deal with situations you and that I can only talk about on an internet forum.

The majority of those folks have pretty much the same answer. -RUN

The misconception to this conversation is that you are thinking that getting into a gunfight saves lives, and makes you a hero...when what you really should think about is what the cops would do, they would be getting innocents out FIRST....protecting lives is the priority, taking out a gunman is second.

The word protect does not always equal force, using sound thinking and judgement to identify priorities while others cannot for reasons of panic, protects the lives of those that are not already thinking about the "What would I do if..." thought process that we use when we walk into the public, hell we sit at home thinking about those situations, what if someone kicks my door in ect. ect.

I do understand what you are saying about people that say they would shoot a would be thief, and I understand your frustration for those that would shoot a thief, but would not shoot in this situation...

Sometimes you have to take these things as internet talk. The reality is that most of us will not have to do ANYTHING the entire time we carry. I hope and pray that I am that lucky. For those that DO actually have to act in self defense, I can only pray that they have the peace of mind to make a sound rational decision rather than act out of raw emotion.

[Fallguy]

Wow…this thread sure got busy after I went to my daughter’s Project Graduation program last night.

Reading back on this thread as a moderator, it reminds me of being a referee during a good basketball game. Trying to decide how much pushing and shoving to let go on for the sake of a good game before calling a foul.

I will say the only people that have a duty to act in this situation is personnel of the Law Enforcement agency of the jurisdiction that the mall is in and any mall security personnel. Now if out-of-jurisdiction LEO’s and retired LEO’s feel a duty to act, I can understand that and respect that. If a private citizens chooses to act, then that is up to them to decide, it should not be required nor a person judged by whether they did or did not act. As with all of these…â€What would you do…†scenarios, I don’t think anyone truly knows until they are in such a situation.

I believe the largest majority of us are armed for SELF-defense. But that does not mean I would not help others if I could. I am on the ones that said I think you should be able to use deadly force to protect property, but to me that is simply another form of self-defense in that I am defending my property. But I also admit I think Mr. Horn was right in protecting his neighbor’s property in TX. But in that case he found himself in the immediate area of the situation, it’s not like he drove across town to involve himself in what was going on. If he had, his actions would surely be even more questioned by some than they already are.

The church security guard in Utah did not retreat, because (volunteer or not) that is what she was there to do, secure the people and property of the church. She assumed a duty to act. I would be upset if the cops ran scared because again they are paid to act in these situations, but even then they are not, or at least should not, be expected to put themselves at undue risk. Remember how long it took them to make entry in some of these school shootings?

TN law does allow for the use of deadly force in defense of a third person, but the part that gives you immunity from civil liability if it ruled justifiable specifically does NOT cover you if you cause property damage, injury or death to an innocent bystander. Good Samaritan laws generally only protect you from damage you may cause to the person you are trying to help, not bystanders. But even then they do not cover if you try to do something that is grossly negligent. Such as cutting open the persons chest to do heart massage instead of CPR.

I am a firefighter, at the motel I stayed in Friday night, I took note of where the fire extinguishers, fire alarms, stairs, etc… were. If there had been a fire at the motel, would have grabbed the closest extinguisher and tried to help? If the fire was close, more than likely, if had been several floors up, maybe, but more than likely I would help those that I could get out. Now if the citizen that had a little fire extinguisher training was there or even the guy that didn’t know the top of one from the bottom of one, if he grabbed one and tried to help, that is great. Does that make him a hero? Maybe, maybe not. If either of them evacuated with the rest, does that make them chicken? No! Is the guy that grabbed his wife and kids and got them to safety a chicken? No. If he chooses to come back in and help (assuming authorities would even let him) is a hero? Maybe, maybe not. But is he a chicken? No.

I don’t think anyone on this board would just stand around and watch harm come to others if they felt there was anything they could do to help. If someone wants to act to help others and put themselves at risk, that is fine. But by the same token, no one is a chicken for trying to save themselves.

[Guest Engloid]

The misconception to this conversation is that you are thinking that getting into a gunfight saves lives, and makes you a hero...

You're putting words into my mouth, that I don't agree with.

You're so quick to think I want to be a hero. How about you go tell all our military that they're only in it because they want to be a hero. See how much support you get in that.

when what you really should think about is what the cops would do, they would be getting innocents out FIRST....protecting lives is the priority, taking out a gunman is second.

My guess is that most people are going to be finding a way out on their own.

I do understand what you are saying about people that say they would shoot a would be thief, and I understand your frustration for those that would shoot a thief, but would not shoot in this situation...

Thank you. I was starting to think I was alone here, amidst a lot of gun toting wimps.

For those that DO actually have to act in self defense, I can only pray that they have the peace of mind to make a sound rational decision rather than act out of raw emotion.

Personally, I do my best when under pressure. Others may not be the same.

[The Rabbi]

Y

Thank you. I was starting to think I was alone here, amidst a lot of gun toting wimps.

That's MISTER Gun-Toting Wimp to you, sonny.

[Guest Engloid]

Wow…this thread sure got busy after I went to my daughter’s Project Graduation program last night.

Reading back on this thread as a moderator, it reminds me of being a referee during a good basketball game. Trying to decide how much pushing and shoving to let go on for the sake of a good game before calling a foul.

That's right. I'm not saying I'd go in with guns blazing and no target in sight. Just the fact that I had gone in tactfully, taken cover, and TRIED to help, and done all that was reasonably possible, would allow me to live in pease with my decision. Running scared would leave me to live in self-torment.

I will say the only people that have a duty to act in this situation is personnel of the Law Enforcement agency of the jurisdiction that the mall is in and any mall security personnel. Now if out-of-jurisdiction LEO’s and retired LEO’s feel a duty to act, I can understand that and respect that. If a private citizens chooses to act, then that is up to them to decide, it should not be required nor a person judged by whether they did or did not act.

100% agree.

I am a firefighter, at the motel I stayed in Friday night, I took note of where the fire extinguishers, fire alarms, stairs, etc… were. If there had been a fire at the motel, would have grabbed the closest extinguisher and tried to help? If the fire was close, more than likely, if had been several floors up, maybe, but more than likely I would help those that I could get out. Now if the citizen that had a little fire extinguisher training was there or even the guy that didn’t know the top of one from the bottom of one, if he grabbed one and tried to help, that is great. Does that make him a hero? Maybe, maybe not.

I've had fire extinguisher training, but I think I'd let you hold the end of the hose.

If either of them evacuated with the rest, does that make them chicken? No! Is the guy that grabbed his wife and kids and got them to safety a chicken? No. If he chooses to come back in and help (assuming authorities would even let him) is a hero? Maybe, maybe not. But is he a chicken? No.

There is a difference in sacrificing your family to help others vs securing their safety first, as there is a difference when you have the ability to help and do not, vs using your abilities to help. Actually, I don't think the OP even mentioned anything about having family present. Somebody else brought it up as one of many "what if" situations.

But by the same token, no one is a chicken for trying to save themselves.

Even cops and military? I know you said it's different because they're paid to do a job...but if all their life is worth is about $30k, something's wrong. It's not a money issue to me. It's about doing what you are capable of doing, vs having an "everybody for themselves" attitude.

Having a permit to carry is a right, but is also a responsibility (in many ways). Having kids is a right you have, but it doesn't mean you can walk away from the responsibility the first time your teenager is caught with a beer.

[Guest Engloid]

That's MISTER Gun-Toting Wimp to you, sonny.

I'll try and remember that, SIR.

[Guest canynracer]

You're putting words into my mouth, that I don't agree with.

You're so quick to think I want to be a hero. How about you go tell all our military that they're only in it because they want to be a hero. See how much support you get in that.

Just like you are so quick to be calling us chickens, and cowards for getting innocet lives out of there.

the military comment is irrelevant to this discussion and warrants no response.

My guess is that most people are going to be finding a way out on their own.

..no, you cant guess that remember? you said that innocent children are dying while I get my family to safety...according to your argument we are to go save lives be shooting the bad guy.

Thank you. I was starting to think I was alone here, amidst a lot of gun toting wimps..

no problem, except your last statement, I dont need a gun to get others to safety. I carry a gun to protect me and my family.

Personally, I do my best when under pressure. Others may not be the same.

By whos perception? who says you do your best under pressure, besides you? have you been in some boot camp or training facility where you are put under this pressure and evaluated? If not, your perception is you do your best...and if running into a gunmans sights to get into a gun battle is "your best under pressure" then I think you should probably re-evaluate..if you disagree, so be it.

[Fallguy]

Even cops and military? I know you said it's different because they're paid to do a job...but if all their life is worth is about $30k, something's wrong. It's not a money issue to me. It's about doing what you are capable of doing, vs having an "everybody for themselves" attitude.

Having a permit to carry is a right, but is also a responsibility (in many ways). Having kids is a right you have, but it doesn't mean you can walk away from the responsibilty the first time your teenager is caught with a beer.

I think we are starting to find some middle ground.

I was a volunteer firefighter for a long time before I ever got paid for it. So, No, I don't think Cops or the Military do it for the money at all. Most do it out of a sense of responsibilty and brotherhood towards their community. But they joined such a group to be able to do those things. I don't think HCP holders fall in quite the same situation.

Yes, having a HCP comes with responsibilities as well, but first to yourself, then not to harm the public before anything else. Sort of like with the teenager, as you've said it would "my" responsibility if mine was caught with the beer, not everyone else's.

I would ask the name calling be kept to a minimum, if not eliminated. Also because folks have different opinions doesn't mean either are wrong.

[towerclimber37]

Well, I DO know what marswolf would do...

he'd wait until that shooter got within range of his coffee klatsch and they'd air him out.

....

Me? I don't know what I'd do..I've never had to secure a mall for friendly forces... I CAN say that my family comes first. I don't care if someone takes exception to that either.

To me, a hero isn't someone who jumps into a fray, looking to save folks. I've seen those guys..didn't know them that well and had no intention of being around them..their other name was "bullet magnet".

To me a hero is someone who's been given a task to complete, or has absolutely no other choice but to do what's required to live. when faced with that situation, they seem to flip a switch (I've seen this with my own eyes folks!). Its like a live/die switch...and they make up their minds to live.

the ones' that are called hero's are folks who loved their friends more than themselves...thats what it took to make them do stupid things that very nearly killed them...BUT, it got their friends out of danger. I have 2 friends right now that would do the self same thing for me..and me for them.

As with every fight, terrain dictates the type of battle...if its a mall with a bunch of folks running around..chances are you're going to have to get close to do him in.

I suggest you gather your family and get them out...if, by chance you have to shoot the bad guy to accomplish this..then by all means, put the coins on his eyes, but me? I'm for ensuring my family gets out before I do anything.

and, yes, I'm a wimp when it comes to taking someones' life...because like words, bullets can't be taken back.

[Guest jaypee]

I have an unshakable conviction that every able bodied armed man has every moral obligation under the stars to take whatever action he can possibly take, to the best of his ability, to prevent the wholesale slaughter of women and children. That might be calling 911, or pulling a wounded kid out of the line of fire, or leading the cops in, or closing a door, or waving an oncomer away, or even firing on the shooter, and yes, it will be dangerous. I have no objection to the removal of family or of finding good cover. But I refuse to accept the premise that doing absolutely nothing and abandoning innocents to machine gun fire is an option.

And with that I'm going to apologize to anyone I have offended and suggest that we take some time for all of us to become friends again. This has gone a little overboard and we need to step back and take a deep breath.

As for me I can forgive anything but badmouthing Roy Rogers. That's blasphemy to a kid born in '42 and raised 28 miles from his ranch.

JayPee

[towerclimber37]

JayPee, we weren't friends to begin with..but thats only cause I don't know ya that well yet.. I wholeheartedly agree with what you said.

every man will follow his convictions. that's no reason for folks to argue especially about a hypothetical situation.

That being said... I wanted to take a little time to welcome you to Kingsport and say that if you get the chance, when I get home to visit, I'd like to invite you out to lunch with me and Marswolf. I always try and get in a lunch!

I'll be home on the 28th-30th!! you pick the place, we can all meet

I think its my turn to buy anyhow..LOL!

[Guest someguy12341]

Haven't posted on this yet, but since I'm allergic to shutting up (just ask my wife), I'll chime in...

A few things I'm pretty sure we're all in agreement on:

1) Pretty much all possible outcomes suck.

2) If not within sight of the shooter, help get all others who you ARE in sight of OUT, preferably in the direction opposite the shooter (if you can determine that, given the labryntine layout of some malls.)

3) Make sure you convey any relevant details you've noticed to any official responders you see or talk to, if you're already on 911 at this point.

4) If you're at the other end of the mall, and you help get 300 people to the door, you're a hero - gun or no gun.

5) Don't draw until and unless you have eyes on the shooter. Imagine the mall laid out like a spoked wheel... Shooter is at the hub. 500-1000 people inside; figure 5 CHL carriers, all of whom on any given day decide to run towards the shooter with guns drawn - looking for what? The guy with a gun, right? See note #1 above.

6) Sound does funny things in structures like these... Especially very loud, very unexpected noise. Unfortunately, in any active shooter scenario, there is likely to be a rapid succession of noises... The point is, you're in a store, eating, whatever - there's music, crowd noise, etc. BANG. Where'd the noise come from? The first instinct (with regards to direction) isn't going to be anywhere near as accurate as you might think, especially if you're not in the corridor. (The following bangs help you locate the noise, but now you're in the chaos.)

Finally,

7) BE ARMED. Having the choice to draw or not is a damn sight better than not having anything at all.

Thank God we have the choice, and thank God for a forum like this where responsible citizens can try to prepare and arm themselves with carefully considered advice.

[Guest slow ride]

1.Get family out of harm's way.

2.If I had a safe shot on him/her I'd try to take it

My family is the most important thing to me in any situation, then myself and others. Truth be known everyone would be running in such a panic that an open safe shot would probably unrealistic. I've never been in such a situation, but if I were I would like to think I would react in a semi-calm manor.

Cover would play an important role.

[Guest jaypee]

Towerclimber. I'd love to go to lunch with you guys. 28th - 30th is fine, make it easy on yourselves. Moutaineer is good, or anyplace else for that matter. Gimme a holler on a PM and we'll set it up. Date and time are all open. Jer

[molonlabetn]

Ya' know how, when you sit in a seat adjacent to an emergency exit on an airliner, you're told that by sitting there you're agreeing to assist in the evacuation of the plane?

There are alot of us who are sitting by that door... and we might not be able or equipped to to everything necessary to fix everyone's problems, but if we're not willing to lend a hand at some level (and I'm not talking about taking on the job of the emergency response personnel), it would be appropriate to find another seat.

That's just my take, and I'm only responsible for my actions... not anyone else's. As is everyone else. Self-preservation is #1... but conscience is a close second.

[towerclimber37]

Towerclimber. I'd love to go to lunch with you guys. 28th - 30th is fine, make it easy on yourselves. Moutaineer is good, or anyplace else for that matter. Gimme a holler on a PM and we'll set it up. Date and time are all open. Jer

Jerry, you're a new comer to the area so I have to tell ya..the mountaineer went downhill after the folks that started it, sold it...but if you like it, thats fine...we can do that. I'll ask marswolf and see if there's some other restaraunt/bbq joint nestled up in a holler somewhere that we haven't tried yet

[Guest jaypee]

Towerclimber. I don't have any great love for the Mountaineer but it's close to you guys and that's why I suggested it.....I didn't know what your time constraints are, so I picked a place close to Church Hill. Anyplace is just fine with me. I've been in Tennessee for 12 years and Kingsport for 8 but was aware the Mountaineer wasn't as good as it used to be. We can carpool somewhere and go to the Mex cafe in Rogersville, or anything else you guys want to do. I have visitation rights on my wife's Avalanche, so there'll be plenty of room.

JayPee

[Marswolf]

We probably should move this to PM before Eddie merges us with a food topic.

But I'd love to have lunch with you guys. Let's go somewhere expensive since Tower is paying.

Hell, since Tower is paying let's invite everyone....

No, just kidding. Jaypee what area do you live in? I'm almost in downtown Blountville and Tower lives off John B. Dennis bypass north of Stone Drive. I shall not be more specific.

That Mexican restaurant in Rogersville is excellent, but about an hour drive from where I live.

Ya' know how, when you sit in a seat adjacent to an emergency exit on an airliner, you're told that by sitting there you're agreeing to assist in the evacuation of the plane?

I think what they have in mind is opening the emergency exit and then getting the hell out of the way by exiting the plane.

[saintsfanbrian]

Hey, if we are in a plane that has just crash landed, look for the me shaped hole in the side of the fuselage and come on through.

Seriously though, I was at the Galleria this weekend and noticed my self paying even MORE attention to my surroundings then normal. We went to the food court and I tell you, if the shooting happened there, it would be mass confusion. Health department be damned, I'm jumping behind the counter of the Chik-Fil-A. Using it for cover while I wait for the "good guys" aka mall security to come riding up on their Segway's. (are you kidding me?)

[Marswolf]

In a lot of cases it is possible to hide yourself. Unfortunately, if you don't have a gun, the BG just comes and hunts you down and you just die later. It is so important that people be able to protect themselves and not just hope that others will protect them.

[saintsfanbrian]

Roger that, Mars. The hiding part was really just a nod to some one else that stated the food court would be the worst place.

Then again, as I looked around the mall, there was no "real" cover anywhere. The best thing would be to get inside one of the stores and make your way to their emergency exit.

[strickj]

I dont even think those counters would stop anything.There made of what cheap osb?