Jose Guerena Shot 60 times by Swat in his Home

[Worriedman]

Dolomite_supafly's post is spot on.

To GhstFace38's question on the information release, here is an article that chronicles the questions involving the concerns.

Brodesky: Tucson deserves to know more about Guerena shooting

Original Press release by Pima County.

Pima County Sheriff's Department :: Officer Involved Shooting

Article posting information by Officer's attorney.

Attorney: SWAT raid found guns, body armor

A pertinent quote from the article by the attorney for the Officers , Michael Storie when speaking of the articles found during the resulting execution of the search warrant:

"probably ... wouldn't have been arrested," Storie said.

The piece of "uniform" found was a baseball cap with "Border Patrol" emblazoned on it, and could have been purchased legally in many locations.

Press Release from May 18th:

http://pimasheriff.org/files/9213/0574/4466/Officer_Involved_Shooting_Update.pdf

Personally, I think that the sooner all the real facts come out the better, I see no prudence in keeping the records sealed. With the media attention this one is getting, it would seem that a release of records would tend to calm down the gathering storm.

[Caster]

I guess Bruce Springsteen is going to have to add to his song from "41 Shots" to "60 Shots"

[Erik88]

Ah, yet another victim of the incredible war on the most useful plant this world knows.

END PROHIBITION!

and the sad thing is that he didn't even have any drugs in his house. He died for nothing.

[1gewehr]

I'm sorry , but the ONLY justification I can see for violent entry into a home is when you have a known active shooter (shots already fired) or a hostage situation. Otherwise, police should knock on the door and wait until someone answers it or they see obvious evidence of violence.

For the police to be the ones to initiate violence like this cannot be justified except as a blatant exhibition of force. And how is the average citizen to know a police SWAT team knocking down his door from a gang of home invaders knocking down his door? It took me five seconds to pull up pages of examples like these:

Fake cops in custody after home invasion attempt | abc13.com

Fake Police Officers Stage Oakland Home Invasion Robbery - News Story - KRXI Reno

Authorities search for 'pseudocops' in Edinburg home invasion : News : ValleyCentral.com

How many of you guys can wake from a deep sleep in the comfort and safety of your own bed to correctly identify cops from crooks as they break down your door within 18 seconds? As they break down your door, will you gamble on not having a weapon in your hands? If it's cops, you die. Will you gamble on NOT having a weapon? If it's crooks, you AND your family are at their mercy. Tough choice. I'd love to hear from some cops on how the law-abiding citizen is to deal with this life and death conundrum.

[Magiccarpetrides]

Definitely a bad spot to be in....if im not 100% im gonna open fire plain and simple....Hopefully it will be the right call.

[Caster]

Definitely a bad spot to be in....if im not 100% im gonna open fire plain and simple....Hopefully it will be the right call.

You've heard it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission? Well, so too is true; It's easier to beg mercy from a court than to beg a reaper to return you to your body.

[mikegideon]

If the police kick down my door, I'm dropping my gun. If they're wrong, we'll take it up later.

[Guest bkelm18]

If the police kick down my door, I'm dropping my gun. If they're wrong, we'll take it up later.

Gotta agree. They clearly announced themselves. If a bunch of dudes in tactical gear kicks down my door with automatic weapons, my ass is kissing the deck. Right or wrong, they took the actions they saw fit in the heat of the moment.

[Troutburger]

Sounds like a law abiding man was just murdered in his own home to me. He was left to bleed out, b/c dead men tell no tales and carry no lawsuits.

[mikegideon]

Sounds like a law abiding man was just murdered in his own home to me. He was left to bleed out, b/c dead men tell no tales and carry no lawsuits.

Or he just lost a gun fight. A guy with an AR-15 is a threat, plain and simple.

[Caster]

..and all this leads us to a very good point ladies and gentlemen. Heavy duty security doors and windows are SOOOOOO worth the price you pay. How would any of these situation play out if the doors and windows could not be breached without mechanical advantage? Steel doors, angle iron reinforced frames, lexan windows or bars, and cross beams across the doors at night.

...I hear yooo knockin' but choo can't come in!

[Guest glock20]

why did they wait an hr to call paramedics?im pretty sure it dont take an hr to clear a house of any other threats.and 71 shots?little excessive isnt it? cops had to defend themselves im not questioning that but 2 magazines into him?come on

Edited May 31, 2011 by glock20

[G27]

If the police kick down my door, I'm dropping my gun. If they're wrong, we'll take it up later.

This.

It's a no-win situation, otherwise, at least not for the homeowner.

[Guest friesepferd]

It is possible that this guy did not hear the siren and did not hear the police telling him they had a warrent and did not see that they were police and just happened to think a gang of killers were knocking down his door and he was just trying to protect himself and his family.

If thats the case, then this is a tragic story of misunderstanding.

At first read, I thought that might be the case, but looking into it more i highly doubt that.

The truth is, the police had a warrent. They had every legal right to enter his home. They turned on the sirens, they told him they had a warrent, etc. He was standing there with a gun pointed at the police. What do you expect to happen? From what I all I read, the swat team did absolutely nothing wrong.

Maybe it truely all was a misunderstanding, or the guy paniced or something. The guy may have been innocent of the things they got the warrent for... it doesnt matter. The swat team went in with a warrent and found a gun pointing a gun at them. Plain and simple.

Mistakes do happen of course, and its very possible that someone here did make a mistake, but from what I see, the mistake was made by the man who is now dead.

[Guest UberDuper]

The issue is whether or not you know it's the police that are breaching your door. I'm partially deaf and depending on how I'm lying in bed I might not be awoken until the house moves from the door breach. Take into account that I'm not a bad guy and have no reason to ever expect the police to come to my door, let alone kick it down. I could easily find myself in this situation.

Then, of course, we have scum of the earth home invasion crews that holler "POLICE!" when they're coming through your door.

The policy of using paramilitary tactics to execute a search warrant is the problem. Why couldn't they just pull this guy over on his way home from work and detain him while they toss his house.

[East_TN_Patriot]

Ah, yet another victim of the incredible war on the most useful plant this world knows.

END PROHIBITION!

I agree 99%. The other 1% is that it's not just prohibition of marijuana that's the problem. Prohibition of most other substances also fuels this problem. We need to stop waging "war" on Americans and seriously consider harm reduction strategies instead. We have created a social policy that has turned our communities into battlegrounds and force our peace officers to become soldiers in a war that can't be won. Until the public demand for drugs goes away, there will be people who are willing to risk all to provide the product. What a waste of manpower, money, resources, and lives!

[Seaslug]

The policy of using paramilitary tactics to execute a search warrant is the problem. Why couldn't they just pull this guy over on his way home from work and detain him while they toss his house.

^^^This. These decisions are not being made by intelligent, well-educated folks. They're made by wannabe tacticians who are WAY too impressed by the "shock and awe" tactics being employed overseas. For this reason, I don't blame the officers for their actions, but rather their commanders.

[MikePapa1]

I agree. We've lost all common sense.

[Dolomite_supafly]

I have always been of the opinion that search warrants that are executed like what was seen in the video should be a rare occurance. Only in instances where a life may be in jeorpady should and officer be allowed to enter under force. Again, this is department policy that has allowed this to get where it is and not the officers doing this.

If they are worried about evidence being destroyed change the policy so the first thing that happens is the water is turned off. Perhaps set a policy that the water will be shutoff two hours prior to any raid that way the toilet tanks should be empty. Have surveilance in place and when the suspect attempts to leave the house snatch him up.

Also, I believe if someone has a flushable amount of most drugs, especially marijuana, I would consider that a personal amount anyways. And personal amounts should be, well , personal and no one elses business.

With the money that is spent fighting the drug problem we could mount a very big campaign against them that would be far more effective than the current "War on Drugs". Legalize marijuana then use it to generate revenue.

The way to generate revenue is this. Because anyone could grow marijuana themselves you need to tax the individual and not the product. Put an endorsement on a person's license that allows them to possess it. Make it cost say $20 a year. Have the same penalties as driving without a license if you are caught with marijuana without the endorsement. Make dealers have to have a similar endorsement except much larger costs, say $1,000 per year. Then have the growers, who must have a license to grow, meet certain health standards and such. Make their licensing $10,000 annually. And with this only a grower can sell to a dealer and only a dealer can sell to individuals. And any income must be reported just like any other industry. Think of the revenue if only 25% of the nation smoked, I honestly believe the number is much higher (pun intended).

People might grow marijuana themselves in the beginning but eventually it easier to just buy it. And that is where most of the income is going to come from, sales.

It would make it less dangerous for all those involved. No more buying from a guy you already know has no problem breaking the law. No more forcing mules to traffic the drugs. No more people willing to risk their lives because it is now legal. And the biggest thing is it would be safer for everyone involved in the enforcement, citizens and LE alike. When was the alst time you heard of a person killed while warrant was being served on an illegal alcohol setup?

And just so everyone knows, I have never smoked or used any illegal drug in my life. I have worked in LE for a substantial part of my life. I believe what we need is fewer laws to regualte what might happen and concentrate on what is happening.

Dolomite

[Dolomite_supafly]

^^^This. These decisions are not being made by intelligent, well-educated folks. They're made by wannabe tacticians who are WAY too impressed by the "shock and awe" tactics being employed overseas. For this reason, I don't blame the officers for their actions, but rather their commanders.

I am not sure I had anything to do with this but I am glad someone else is seeing it isn;t the officers as a whole but the administrations that have lead to all of this.

Dolomite

[Guest UberDuper]

I can't let the individual officers off the hook in these situations. I recognize that the policy is the problem but I believe the individual LEOs have significant influence on advancing these policies into what they've become.

I'm not anti-cop. I'm anti-people-dying-for-no-damn-reason. I used to be pretty indifferent to this stuff. After getting my AZ CCW permit I took an additional "advanced" pistol class that was instructed by some MCSO swat douchebag (he really was a douche). This dude forever changed my opinion of police, their policies and above all, the consequences of their actions. He told us of an incident where an officer pulled some Joe over. Apparently unknown to Joe, his wife's revolver was in the glove box of his car. Joe, with the back of his head to the officer opens the glove box to get vehicle registration, officer sees the revolver in the box, draws and puts a bullet in the back of Joe's head. Somehow this jackboot bedwetter gets away with murder because he was scrrrd. No charges, no nothing. Declared a 'good shoot.'

This is in contrast to the old timer that taught my CCW class. Similar story he was involved in. He pulled over a woman. She opened her glovebox to get registration. A gun fell out of the glovebox and she caught it then kind of confused about a gun in her hand, she holds it up. Old timer draws, backs away and to the rear of the car shouting his head off. Woman realizes she needs to put the gun down and does so. Scared cop does the right thing and the woman lives.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

If officers do not follow policy and instructions then they will be replaced by someone else who will follow policy and instructions. This is not a problem with the officers except in very rare situations. They have to do the job as instructed or they won't have a job. It is a problem with the policies.

Perhaps we could keep fighting the war on drugs and tweak the policies, but any tweaking of policy would just be a band-aid over the basic problem.

If we can't do away with the majority of para-military searches, then one tweak might be to give the resident maybe 5 or even 10 minutes to answer the door before they bust it down? Except for emergencies and no-knock warrants. This case was NOT a no-knock warrant.

I certainly couldn't have got to the door and opened it in the time allotted on that video, even if I was awake and in the living room. I'd first have to gather up the dogs and get them out of the living room so they don't get shot, and the dogs are not very cooperative when barking announcement that someone is on the front porch.

If I ever get raided on a mistaken address warrant, am afraid my dogs WILL get shot. They are sweet dogs, but the police would not know that.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Another thought-- Dunno how great an idea it would be to suddenly open a door on five guys pointing rifles at the door...

[vontar]

This event still has not made main stream new. You can not find it on CNN even. It happened on May 5th and look how long it took to make news even here.

Allot of facts are being kept buried.

I can image it will get worse with the loosening of the 4th amendment as well.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1391567/Iraq-war-vet-Jose-Guerena-did-open-SWAT-team-killed-him.html

His wife is going to try to fight to clear his name now it appears.

Edited May 31, 2011 by vontar

[gregintenn]

Is sending a SWAT team to serve a narcotics warrant standard procedure? This isn't a trick question; I simply don't know.