Jose Guerena Shot 60 times by Swat in his Home

[gregintenn]

Also the risk to Officers is unacceptable.

On this we can all agree. Any loss of human life should be unacceptable unless there are just no other options.

[Guest friesepferd]

From everything I see, nobody did anything illegal here, except Jose. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

As I don't actually know whether or not Jose did those things which he was convicted of, it's hard for me to actually give a or a to this one. <o:p></o:p>

The warrant, as many have said, is quite detailed and sure makes me think he was into drug trafficking, but it certainly isn't an area I have expertise in.<o:p></o:p>

Because all normal protocol and laws were followed, I can not bash anyone involved in this incident. <o:p></o:p>

So I guess the real question is, should the laws or protocol be changed? I think not.

Is it really better to serve a warrant to someone who is believed to be dangerous in public? On the street? At a traffic stop? At is work?

Personally, I think not, as all of those give the person a much higher chance of getting away, and it also puts more people in danger, including innocent by standards.

Even assuming Jose did what he did because he believed a bunch of thugs dressed as cops were breaking in his home (which I doubt, but doesn’t matter), the same outcome could just as easily occur on the street.

So, might have this turned out better if they had done something different? Sure!

Should they change what they do in the future because this one ended up badly? No.<o:p></o:p>

As for what I am going to do in this type of situation? Drop gun, hands up.

When I decide about what I am going to do in self-defense type situations, I can’t help but think statistically, as that’s how my brain works.

Maybe this means that some day, some thugs dressed as cops will bust into my house with fake sirens going and gun me down.

Personally, I just find it more likely that I would die b/c I pointed a gun at a real cop, than die because I didn’t point a gun at a fake cop.

I simply can’t go shooting people who I honestly believe might be police. If I get pulled over and a cop walks up, and suddenly points a gun at me.. you know what I’m doing? Im sticking my hands up and telling him or her to take it easy, that I have a permit (in case the reaction was because they saw my gun somehow), etc. Same goes for in my home.

If I have real cause to believe they are not police, that’s a different story of course, but if they look and sound like cops, that is not a chance I am going to take, simply due to the fact that there are more real cops out there than fake ones.

Again, it make get me killed some day, but you pointing a gun at a real cop may get you killed some day. That’s just the way those things work. Lets hope neither happens to us. <o:p></o:p>

[vontar]

I wonder if SWAT inside the home had cameras to confirm what they saw/heard. I know this is a bit late at this point. I have been working 6 day weeks and been really tried after work. Questions like this come up at work and I have to just sit on it while at work. I am almost done with this.

I went back and found the links to the warrant, however it would not load for me.

In that story I posted, there is this here, Seems one officer thought he saw the flashes first and first 9 or 10 times, fell while reloading which made the other officers think he was hit so they returned fire. They thought they hear shots. ( may have been echo's since we know Jose's gun never came off safety)

SWAT: We said, 'Open up' at least twice (same link I used before)

[Dolomite_supafly]

Maybe the officers did see a flash.

Perhaps Jose had a light on the gun and hit the momentary switch by accident as the officers entered.

With the officers hearing being affected and shut down by adrenaline as well as them probably having hearing protection of some sort they could have seen a flash from a flashlight but never realized it wasn't a shot because they couldn't hear it if it was. A flashlight going off in your direction during daylight could easily look like a muzzle flash.

I know it is a bit of a stretch but being amped up on adrenaline anything can distort things.

Dolomite

[diablo982]

Several have suggested waiting for Jose to go to the mailbox, or following him to the store to execute the warrant. Many question the urgency of serving the warrant within 30 seconds of arrival. By all accounts the Sheriff's Department was serving multiple warrants that same day, and I can tell you from experience those warrants were executed simultaneously. You cannot execute one warrant, then go to the co-conspirators house two hours later and hope all the evidence is in place. Criminals use cell phones to announce police activity as quickly as cops use their own radios. Reality is the longer a police officer waits, the more time a suspect has to either A) destroy evidence, or plan a counter-assault.

[Guest friesepferd]

My opinion on them thinking Jose had shot- it doesnt matter at all.

They could have thought he should, or they could have not thought he shot. Either way he was pointing a gun at officers, thus they had every right to take him down.

[Guest friesepferd]

Several have suggested waiting for Jose to go to the mailbox, or following him to the store to execute the warrant. Many question the urgency of serving the warrant within 30 seconds of arrival. By all accounts the Sheriff's Department was serving multiple warrants that same day, and I can tell you from experience those warrants were executed simultaneously. You cannot execute one warrant, then go to the co-conspirators house two hours later and hope all the evidence is in place. Criminals use cell phones to announce police activity as quickly as cops use their own radios. Reality is the longer a police officer waits, the more time a suspect has to either A) destroy evidence, or plan a counter-assault.

*nods*

very good point. I again, can't see how they should have done this differently (or more appropraitly, how they should handle this kind of situation in the future)

[Seaslug]

My opinion on them thinking Jose had shot- it doesnt matter at all.

They could have thought he should, or they could have not thought he shot. Either way he was pointing a gun at officers, thus they had every right to take him down.

There is no evidence that he actually pointed it at anyone. It was said that he "appeared in the hallway with a rifle"--with the safety on, no less. As Dolomite has already pointed out, the officers are amped up on adrenaline going in, and this impairs their decision-making ability. All the more reason to not employ these sorts of tactics for something as silly as a (failed) drug raid. The risk to both officers and civilians is simply not worth the reward.

[Guest GunTroll]

I second that...

FAILED DRUG RAID.

We can argue till we are all blue but this was a fail. Someone died. No drugs were found. More animosity towards LE from the locals and perhaps nationwide. 60 something shots were fired. And no bad guys were arrested. Shoddy police work/intel. The streets are not any safer after this warranted execution. I'd call that mission failure. So you LEO and pro leaning LE tell me I'm wrong. Perhaps I'm missing something.

No the swat is not to blame. Its the mentality that they are needed in the first place that is to blame. Our individual rights are being taken away one step at a time and it appears we are welcoming it. Jose was no golden boy obviously. But a term I once heard is relevant here I beleive..."Death by a thousand scratches". Thats whats happening to our rights. Is this the worst case of police abuse out there? Of course not. A simple search will show you plenty of police state failures.

[DaveTN]

I second that...

FAILED DRUG RAID.

We can argue till we are all blue but this was a fail. Someone died. No drugs were found. More animosity towards LE from the locals and perhaps nationwide. 60 something shots were fired. And no bad guys were arrested. Shoddy police work/intel. The streets are not any safer after this warranted execution. I'd call that mission failure. So you LEO and pro leaning LE tell me I'm wrong. Perhaps I'm missing something.

No the swat is not to blame. Its the mentality that they are needed in the first place that is to blame. Our individual rights are being taken away one step at a time and it appears we are welcoming it. Jose was no golden boy obviously. But a term I once heard is relevant here I beleive..."Death by a thousand scratches". Thats whats happening to our rights. Is this the worst case of police abuse out there? Of course not. A simple search will show you plenty of police state failures.

There is no right and wrong…. Only our opinions. The cops aren’t charged with anything and I doubt they will be.

A bad guy pulled a gun on cops and they killed him. No cops were injured. I don’t call that a failure. But I don’t think putting my opinion in big azz letters will cause any one to change their mind either.

[Guest friesepferd]

yep. just because they didnt find drugs

1) doesnt mean he wasnt guilty

2) surely doesnt mean the next guy they do this too wont be guilty.

again, in my opinion, discussion of what MIGHT have been the right thing to do after the fact is a moot point. What there is to discuss is if their procedures or the laws should be changed, and I certainly dont think so, as explained in previous posts.

[Guest GunTroll]

yep. just because they didnt find drugs

1) doesnt mean he wasnt guilty

2) surely doesnt mean the next guy they do this too wont be guilty.

again, in my opinion, discussion of what MIGHT have been the right thing to do after the fact is a moot point. What there is to discuss is if their procedures or the laws should be changed, and I certainly dont think so, as explained in previous posts.

1) what do you mean "doesn't mean he wasn't guilty" . Seeing how they found nothing that warranted the warrant I'd say he was not guilty of anything but poor judgment for pointing a firearm at officers (if that happened as this story claims). Guess everyone that LE goes after is guilty without trial these days. Am I right there guy?

2) What do you mean " surely doesn't mean the next guy they do this too wont be guilty." ? So you are giving the green light to more botched warrants that end in a death that provides no evidence that the warrant was justified? It sure sounds so. I'll refrain from saying what I'd like to about your comment(s).

I'd say any conversation about individual rights is not "moot". I'm not sure too many people have even argued that Jose was not in the wrong. I know I haven't claimed that. Jose's situation/outcome is but a small speck in the real conversation. It seems some of you have missed that in most of the comments that have been made.

DaveTN,

I see you dropped your font size for your last post. Thanks .

No, the swat officers won't be charged. IMO they meant no ill intent. But them being there to drop the hammer is where I have my problem. Dolomite has already suggested turning the water off to stop the potential flushing of evidence and preforming the stereotypical "come out with your hands up" drill. That sounds too easy to me.

Why must we forfeit our right to security in our homes is my real question. Again I'm not real concerned with Jose's scenario here. I've said it. Others have said it. Wrongful NO-KNOCKS have happened and happen all the time with bad results. Jose is perhaps the most recent and sparked this debate. He choose real poorly perhaps and suffered the consequences.

I'd say not making a justifiable arrest is a failure unless the warrant said "dead or alive". I'd say defending yourself from harm like the LEO's did if the law is on your side is not a failure. So I'll concede that.

I will not take the word of no man just because of his title. I know our courts see it differently but not me and not God.

[vontar]

yep. just because they didnt find drugs

1) doesnt mean he wasnt guilty

2) surely doesnt mean the next guy they do this too wont be guilty.

1. Does not mean he was guilty of anything either.

2. Remember he was in his home, his castle if you will.

Watch the video of the officers entering again, from the time the officer steps in, it does not appear there is time to give a person time to surrender.

door broke at 34 seconds shoots start about 41 seconds. If the siren had woke him up he might have just be getting to his feet trying to figure out what the hell was going on. (keep in mind we are all second guessing arm chairing this)

We don't know have the full story of what happened in that house, don't have Jose's side. We only have the one side of the story and they saw muzzle flashes.

If one swat team member had a camera outside, it makes me wonder if any one on the inside had a camera and audio recorder?

Put yourself in a slightly different situation, legal search warrant, but wrong home, (your home 2 a.m.) (mistakes happen)

Anyone of us might have got up and grabbed our 12 Ga to see what was going on and it could have us on the wrong side of swat with only seconds to not get shot.

[Dolomite_supafly]

1) what do you mean "doesn't mean he wasn't guilty" . Seeing how they found nothing that warranted the warrant I'd say he was not guilty of anything but poor judgment for pointing a firearm at officers (if that happened as this story claims). Guess everyone that LE goes after is guilty without trial these days. Am I right there guy?

There was plenty that warranted the search warrant being issued. It was all in the search warrant. Months and months of surveillance to associate Jose with the drug trade. If they had no prior evidence a search warrant wouldn't have been issued.

Also, the wife took 7 minutes to exit the residence, more than enough time to destroy evidence.

2) What do you mean " surely doesn't mean the next guy they do this too wont be guilty." ? So you are giving the green light to more botched warrants that end in a death that provides no evidence that the warrant was justified? It sure sounds so. I'll refrain from saying what I'd like to about your comment(s).

Warrant was hardly botched. Plenty of intel over the course of months. Wife wasn't suppoed to be there. The only person who goofed was Jose or perhaps his wife when she failed to let her husband know officers were outside.

I'd say any conversation about individual rights is not "moot". I'm not sure too many people have even argued that Jose was not in the wrong. I know I haven't claimed that. Jose's situation/outcome is but a small speck in the real conversation. It seems some of you have missed that in most of the comments that have been made.

DaveTN,

I see you dropped your font size for your last post. Thanks .

No, the swat officers won't be charged. IMO they meant no ill intent. But them being there to drop the hammer is where I have my problem. Dolomite has already suggested turning the water off to stop the potential flushing of evidence and preforming the stereotypical "come out with your hands up" drill. That sounds too easy to me.

Why must we forfeit our right to security in our homes is my real question. Again I'm not real concerned with Jose's scenario here. I've said it. Others have said it. Wrongful NO-KNOCKS have happened and happen all the time with bad results. Jose is perhaps the most recent and sparked this debate. He choose real poorly perhaps and suffered the consequences.

I'd say not making a justifiable arrest is a failure unless the warrant said "dead or alive". I'd say defending yourself from harm like the LEO's did if the law is on your side is not a failure. So I'll concede that.

Realize this was not an arrest warrant. It was a SEARCH warrant. Now had they found anything people would have been arrested without a doubt but the warrant was not an arrest warrant to begin with. A search warrant doesn't ensure an arrest will be made only that a search will be conducted. Happens every day, a search warrant is executed and nothing is found so no arrests where made.

Page one says it all:

http://www.kvoa.com/files/Scanned%20Document0582_000.pdf

"Search Warrant"

I will not take the word of no man just because of his title. I know our courts see it differently but not me and not God.

I am not saying you have to take any man's word at face value but look at the evidence that brought the officers to the house. Plenty of evidence collected by dozens of people over the course of months that justify the search warrant. It isn't like they picked his name out of a phone book and then decided to go kill him. Officers did everything about as right as you could ask. Jose had weapons charges as well as drug charges from another agency.

Dolomite

[vontar]

I am reading the warrant now, that link works for me, the last one would not open yesterday.

[Guest GunTroll]

Why with the wife? Lets speculate and miss my point all together.

With such great police work that keeps getting referenced and I might add brought up by you Dolomite over and over "she wasn't suppose to be there" its real hard to say great police work. Sounds like a few months of shaming to me on the detectives part.

Glad it was pointed out to me a that this is a search warrant. How did the searching go? Again great police work. Swat does the searching in AZ I see.

I'm not loosing sleep over Jose. Rather I'm just now thinking about how secure I really am in my own home. Any toolbox detective and some hack job judge can send the swat out to "search" a home. I just hope they get the address right.

[Dolomite_supafly]

Why with the wife? Lets speculate and miss my point all together.

With such great police work that keeps getting referenced and I might add brought up by you Dolomite over and over "she wasn't suppose to be there" its real hard to say great police work. Sounds like a few months of shaming to me on the detectives part.

Glad it was pointed out to me a that this is a search warrant. How did the searching go? Again great police work. Swat does the searching in AZ I see.

I'm not loosing sleep over Jose. Rather I'm just now thinking about how secure I really am in my own home. Any toolbox detective and some hack job judge can send the swat out to "search" a home. I just hope they get the address right.

Pretty well considering they found ledgers detailing his involvement in the drug trade. They found police uniforms and body armor as well. Oh yeah, they also found the dead body of a man who pointed a firearm at police.

And you have to take it.

You can't resist, defend or twart their actions regardless of how screwed up you think they are or how screwed up they actually are. When we as citizens are able to start resisting LE we will turn into a country we will not want to be.

Having the wife show up that day unexpectedly is something hard to predict. Same way we try to predict the traffic here in Knoxville. Might be clear as a bell one day then an accident the next slows things down. Her being there was an unexpected event and no amount of prior knowledge is going to change something unexpected. They expected, based on their investigation, Jose would be there alone. Everything leading up to the raid was done well by LE and the courts. Regardless of how they came to be at his house he was the one who pointed a firearm at police and it cost him his life. I feel for his family, especially the children, but ultimately there is only one person responsible for what happened and that was Jose. He said "yes" when he should have said "no" to his involvement in nefarious activities.

At this point I think I am just going to agree to disagree. I am the first to scream form the roof tops at LE corruption, abuse as well as just plain laziness on their part but in this instance they did nothing wrong.

Dolomite

[Guest GunTroll]

Pretty well considering they found ledgers detailing his involvement in the drug trade. They found police uniforms and body armor as well. Oh yeah, they also found the dead body of a man who pointed a firearm at police.

And you have to take it.

You can't resist, defend or twart their actions regardless of how screwed up you think they are or how screwed up they actually are. When we as citizens are able to start resisting LE we will turn into a country we will not want to be.[/COLOR]

Having the wife show up that day unexpectedly is something hard to predict. Same way we try to predict the traffic here in Knoxville. Might be clear as a bell one day then an accident the next slows things down. Her being there was an unexpected event and no amount of prior knowledge is going to change something unexpected. They expected, based on their investigation, Jose would be there alone. Everything leading up to the raid was done well by LE and the courts. Regardless of how they came to be at his house he was the one who pointed a firearm at police and it cost him his life. I feel for his family, especially the children, but ultimately there is only one person responsible for what happened and that was Jose. He said "yes" when he should have said "no" to his involvement in nefarious activities.

At this point I think I am just going to agree to disagree. I am the first to scream form the roof tops at LE corruption, abuse as well as just plain laziness on their part but in this instance they did nothing wrong.

Dolomite

You got that right.

[Guest UberDuper]

Pretty well considering they found ledgers detailing his involvement in the drug trade. They found police uniforms and body armor as well.

This is nonsense. The affidavit listed "ledgers" as something they were searching for in all the addresses listed and none were found in Jose's house. Police uniform? They found a border patrol baseball cap. These are common in southern Arizona and can be bought at any gas station down there. Body armor isn't exactly common in Arizona but it is common for returning military.

Some of you guys are really desperate to believe this guy deserved to die. It's disgusting. And frankly it's a little scary that some of you former and/or current LEOs are not only okay with how this all went down but you're practically cheerleaders for police executions.

Oh and Education officials break down Stockton man's door | news10.net

Sorry, this one didn't die. Don't get your hopes up.

[Dolomite_supafly]

I guess the police interview afterwards was wrong when they said they found those items but did not find any cash at his residence.

So I guess to you it is ok to point firearms at officers? Give it a try and say hello to Jose for me after you do. Or how would you respond to someone pointing a firearm at you?

Regardless whether they found anything or not thy had a legal right to be there. They had a legal right to defend themselves. And all of this is without regard to what they did or did not find.

If someone points a firearm at me I will remove the threat.

If it requires me to shoot someone so be it.

Dolomite

[Guest GunTroll]

UperDuper,

I'd just drop it man. I don't believe their is a right side to this debate. Not at least on that can be argued over the keyboard. To hard to articulate thoughts and receive honest feedback without a heavy dose of internet bravado. I know I'm guilty of it at least. Can't speak for any of the others of course.

[Seaslug]

I guess the police interview afterwards was wrong when they said they found those items but did not find any cash at his residence.

So I guess to you it is ok to point firearms at officers? Give it a try and say hello to Jose for me after you do. Or how would you respond to someone pointing a firearm at you?

Regardless whether they found anything or not thy had a legal right to be there. They had a legal right to defend themselves. And all of this is without regard to what they did or did not find.

If someone points a firearm at me I will remove the threat.

If it requires me to shoot someone so be it.

Dolomite

You and others have stated numerous times that Mr. Guerena pointed his rifle at officers before he was killed, but there is no evidence to support this. The officers themselves (the same ones who first stated that Mr. Guerena fired at them and then revised the statement to say they "thought they saw muzzle flash") didn't even make this claim in the final report--they only stated that they only saw the deceased "appear in the hallway with a rifle". The rifle's safety was on. No self-respecting former Marine whom the spin doctors would want us to believe was intent on killing police officers would do so with his rifle on safe. The whole thing reeks of a cover-up, and unfortunately, we'll only ever hear one side of the story. Is it really so hard for people to believe that the point man--upon seeing Mr. Guerena with a firearm just a few seconds after breaching the front door--simply overreacted and opened fire, thus causing the rest of his team to do the same?

Thousands and thousands of taxpayers' dollars were spent on this operation, and yet, in the end, all we have to show for it is one dead civilian who was denied his day in court--gunned down in his own home in front of his wife and son. No arrests. No new evidence. Just a Pandora's Box of public scrutiny and suspicion. I pray to God that this is not what passes as a "successful" mission these days...

[Dolomite_supafly]

If some one planted the rifle they would at least put it on fire to support what they thought they saw. Crooked cops generally aren't idiots, it takes some intelligence to get away with being crooked. I'm not talking about the ones who abuse their authority but the one who scheme and lie to get away with things.

Things in general need to be done differently. SWAT should not be used unless those being served have shown a propensity for violence. In this case I believe there was evidence to support there use based on Jose's previous weapons charges but as a general rule they should not be used.

Dolomite

[Guest GunTroll]

Who will get the last word I wonder? Thats what this 15+ page topic has turned into it seems.

[Seaslug]

If some one planted the rifle they would at least put it on fire to support what they thought they saw. Crooked cops generally aren't idiots, it takes some intelligence to get away with being crooked. I'm not talking about the ones who abuse their authority but the one who scheme and lie to get away with things.

Things in general need to be done differently. SWAT should not be used unless those being served have shown a propensity for violence. In this case I believe there was evidence to support there use based on Jose's previous weapons charges but as a general rule they should not be used.

Dolomite

You're reading too much into what I said. I never meant to imply that anyone planted the rifle, or even that the SWAT guys were crooked. However, based on the evidence presented and the rather obvious spin control that has ensued, Ockham's Razor tells me that this was not a good shoot, but once the first shot was fired, the team was all-in. I've been in situations like this (although none of them ended in gunfire) while working security and in mental-health lock-downs. The simple truth is, when one team member screws up, the rest of the team rallies to his aid and then coordinates their stories in order to protect him. That's just how things work. I can't find one example of an officer coming forward and proclaiming a 'bad shoot', even though the law of human fallibility dictates that they occur.