Jose Guerena Shot 60 times by Swat in his Home

[vontar]

have not read the warrant, from what I read

search warrants and affidavits weren't sealed until four days after the raids were executed,

I thougth that meant they were sealed and unavailable to the general public. If they are available I would like to see them.

[gregintenn]

I always get in trouble for "cop bashing". Anyway, I do have an opinion. Police, as a group, are no better, and in my opinion as I belive statistics would prove, sorrier than the general population in which they serve. I have never understood the attitude that EVERY SINGLE LEO I've met has, in which they believe they are above everyone else and above the law. As long as they portray this attitude, they do NOT have my support. There will come a point that the majority of people will agree, but it appears it hasn't come yet.

Are there "good police"? Absolutely! However, I do not understand the general attitude that whatever they do is fine simply because they are wearing a badge.

[vontar]

SWAT: We said, 'Open up' at least twice

June 4th

they saw a man appear in the hallway holding a rifle before they saw what they thought were muzzle flashes from his gun.

It was later determined Jose Guerena's rifle was on safety and he didn't fire at the officers.

Sheriff's Department documents said the raid was part of a long-term drug investigation of Guerena, his brother, several family members and others. No arrests have been made.

it has been a month after these 4 raids and no arrests. I am not sold on they have solid proof. Since they didn't have enough to arrest anyone on the spot or even a month later. Yet this man is dead.

Edited June 5, 2011 by vontar

[gregintenn]

My wife was tired, and nearly due with my second son when driving home from work one evening. A group of morons with blue lights pulled her over and harrassed her for more than an hour for no apparent reason. She asked why she was pulled over, and was repeatedly told "we don't know." When I went into the sherriff's office, shut the door behind me, and pinned him in the corner of the room, he told me they were executing a drug sting, and that her car matched the description of a car they were looking for, and that "his boys" got a little jumpy. I told him in no uncertain terms that if anythin like that ever happened again, he'd have trouble he surely didn't want. He assured me that it wouldn't and apologized profusely. I am a law abiding citizen, and this is just one of many examples of encounters I've had with law enforcement. I have no tolerance for this type of crap, and will not allow it no matter the outcome. If I'm alone in my belief; so be it.

[DaveTN]

I always get in trouble for "cop bashing". Anyway, I do have an opinion. Police, as a group, are no better, and in my opinion as I belive statistics would prove, sorrier than the general population in which they serve. I have never understood the attitude that EVERY SINGLE LEO I've met has, in which they believe they are above everyone else and above the law. As long as they portray this attitude, they do NOT have my support. There will come a point that the majority of people will agree, but it appears it hasn't come yet.

Are there "good police"? Absolutely! However, I do not understand the general attitude that whatever they do is fine simply because they are wearing a badge.

My wife was tired, and nearly due with my second son when driving home from work one evening. A group of morons with blue lights pulled her over and harrassed her for more than an hour for no apparent reason. She asked why she was pulled over, and was repeatedly told "we don't know." When I went into the sherriff's office, shut the door behind me, and pinned him in the corner of the room, he told me they were executing a drug sting, and that her car matched the description of a car they were looking for, and that "his boys" got a little jumpy. I told him in no uncertain terms that if anythin like that ever happened again, he'd have trouble he surely didn't want. He assured me that it wouldn't and apologized profusely. I am a law abiding citizen, and this is just one of many examples of encounters I've had with law enforcement. I have no tolerance for this type of crap, and will not allow it no matter the outcome. If I'm alone in my belief; so be it.

That’s just

Someone at the scene knew why she was pulled over and they told her. The first thing you say about the incident is that “She was tiredâ€. Does that mean she was suspected of DUI? It’s easy for you to get on a forum and post some hair brained story when we have no way to talk to the cops that were there.

So some cops pull your wife over, check her, out and let her go. And because of that cops are “sorrier than the general population in which they serve.�

You want us to believe that you waltzed into the County Sheriff’sOffice and threatened him for something he had nothing to do with? you would have been in jail.

and this is just one of many examples of encounters I've had with law enforcement.

That speaks volumes right there.

[TNRobocop]

BS isn't quite right. Sounds like outright lies. Especially the part about just walking into the sheriff's personal office.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

What would you guys suggest?

Main thing I'd suggest in my infinite ignorance, for non-emergency or non-no-knock entries, would be to always wait at least five minutes after announcing and before kicking down the door.

Give the resident a chance to get out of bed, put on his pants and figure out what hell is going on. Or get off the pot. Or zip it up. Or corral the dogs before they kick down the door.

Given at least five minutes, then if the resident doesn't believe it is police-- Police can advise the resident to call 911, and 911 dispatchers should should have been previously clued-in so that 911 dispatchers know what raids are going down and can authoritatively confirm to the resident that it really is the police at the door.

In the report referenced by Vontar, the officers stated that there was at least 1 minute between knocking and kicking down the door. Well, the officers also stated that the resident shot at them. So maybe nobody was running a stopwatch on the wait-time. If they were wrong about the wait-delay and the resident shooting, then maybe they were also wrong about the resident's purported verbal threats.

It didn't seem a minute on the video. In fact, if this video is unedited, I see them knock on the door ar 0:46 and then the door goes down at 0:53. That is 7 seconds, not 60 seconds.

The siren does sound like a car alram, but the siren goes off at 0:26. So even counting from the siren blast immediately after they pull in the driveway it is only 27 seconds until the door goes down. If the dude was asleep after a 12 hour shift at the mine then it is amazing he got out of bed and grabbed a rifle in 27 seconds. Much less figure out what hell is going on.

YouTube - Iraq war vet Jose Guerena did not open fire on SWAT team who killed him‏

Even granting that it was really 1 minute as alleged-- That is not long enough to be assured that the resident knows what is happening and can respond in a rational fashion.

If police had waited at least five minutes and had helmet video of the police talking to the guy for several minutes-- After a few minutes discussion with the resident, if they still found it desirable to kick down the door and fill Guerena with lead, then it would be a whole lot clearer to us hand-wringers and manginas that the resident knew what was going down and that the resident had willfully committed suicide by cop. It would avoid a great deal of civilian suspicion that this raid was a rushed haphazard screwup.

There are many things that bug me about para military raids, but this particular incident wouldn't bug me near as much if the police had taken enough time to make the situation clear to the resident. If the resident still wanted to get shot after waking up and a bit of discussion with the police, then that would have been his own dam biz. Darwin in action.

Edited June 5, 2011 by Lester Weevils

[gregintenn]

That’s just

Someone at the scene knew why she was pulled over and they told her. The first thing you say about the incident is that “She was tired”. Does that mean she was suspected of DUI? It’s easy for you to get on a forum and post some hair brained story when we have no way to talk to the cops that were there.

So some cops pull your wife over, check her, out and let her go. And because of that cops are “sorrier than the general population in which they serve.”?

You want us to believe that you waltzed into the County Sheriff’sOffice and threatened him for something he had nothing to do with? you would have been in jail.

That speaks volumes right there.

You were there? If so, could you tell me why she was pulled over? The boy who pulled her over couldn't tell her, he said "I'm not sure." I find it interesting that you know more about the incident than I do. If you choose to believe all LEO are good and competent, go ahead. It is not the case, however. They are simply people.

Edited June 5, 2011 by gregintenn

[gregintenn]

You want us to believe that you waltzed into the County Sheriff’sOffice and threatened him for something he had nothing to do with? you would have been in jail.

I apologize for the confusion. You are correct on this point. Upon looking, he wasn't the sherrif, he was the City Police Chief. In a Metropolitan area, I didn't realize there were both. He was actually very personable and agreeable. I didn't mean to come off sounding lik a bad a$$. When I did this, I actually expected to be arrested. I was very pizzed off. He talked with me, apologized, and assured me it wouldn't happen again. He could have just as easily beaten me with a nightstick, and probably should have. The point I was trying to make is that sometimes LEOs are bullies for no reason. We should call them on it when it happens. The original post in this thread is a very extreme example of this. I just gave a personal example of the same thing happening; thankfully on a much smaller scale.

If you had a problem with something a person has done, you wouldn't confront them about it?

[DaveTN]

You were there? If so, could you tell me why she was pulled over? The boy who pulled her over couldn't tell her, he said "I'm not sure." I find it interesting that you know more about the incident than I do. If you choose to believe all LEO are good and competent, go ahead. It is not the case, however. They are simply people.

Jump on a forum and post stupid crap if you want to, but don’t expect people to keep quiet and accept what you say as anything near the truth. You’re a cop hater; we get it… you made that crystal clear.

If you had made a proper complaint you would have found out why your wife got stropped. I suspect you already know. If you had made a complaint a Command Officer would have ask the Officer why he stopped your wife. I can assure you the answer would not have been “I don’t knowâ€.

So you want us to believe that you are some big bad azz that went into the Sheriff’s Office, pinned him in a corner and threatened him? Some of the kids on here might believe that but anyone with common sense won’t.

Now tell us what really happened out there on the road that got you are so pizzed off.

Of course I wasn’t there… were you?

Was this the Sheriff of Macon County that you had trembling in fear?

[DaveTN]

If you had a problem with something a person has done, you wouldn't confront them about it?

I wouldn’t get on a forum and call you a backwoods redneck hillbilly even I thought you were one. I’m a former Police Officer and took offense at your biased hateful remarks aimed at all Police Officers. There are cops on this forum that can’t stand up to you and your mindless remarks because of their jobs. I don’t have to worry about that.

I gave my opinion of this incident based on having been in their shoes. Those cops didn’t want to kill anyone; the dumbazz in the house made that happen. If these cops had been wrong this would be all over the mainstream news. It isn’t… why do you think that is?

You see my opinions and a couple of cops opinions and you decided to turn this into a cop bashing thread? Why?

[Dolomite_supafly]

My wife was tired, and nearly due with my second son when driving home from work one evening. A group of morons with blue lights pulled her over and harrassed her for more than an hour for no apparent reason. She asked why she was pulled over, and was repeatedly told "we don't know." When I went into the sherriff's office, shut the door behind me, and pinned him in the corner of the room, he told me they were executing a drug sting, and that her car matched the description of a car they were looking for, and that "his boys" got a little jumpy. I told him in no uncertain terms that if anythin like that ever happened again, he'd have trouble he surely didn't want. He assured me that it wouldn't and apologized profusely. I am a law abiding citizen, and this is just one of many examples of encounters I've had with law enforcement. I have no tolerance for this type of crap, and will not allow it no matter the outcome. If I'm alone in my belief; so be it.

So how much was your bond?

There is no way you walked into a station or anywhere else for that matter and said ordid what you say.

Nothing against you but it doesn't happen like that at least not unless you are higher up in the food chain but even then it is very, very questionable.

And from the sounds of it you weren't in the car either. So you wife probably got her feelings hurt, embellished a bit and you got upset. Understandable. But there is no way you pinned an officer in the corner, made threats and then he did nothing but appologize. Doesn't make sense so it didn't happen the way you say. Had you done exactly like you say you would have been arrested.

Dolomite

[gregintenn]

When I went into the sherriff's office, shut the door behind me, and pinned him in the corner of the room, he told me they were executing a drug sting, and that her car matched the description of a car they were looking for, and that "his boys" got a little jumpy.

If you'd have read my post, you would have seen I learned the reason she was pulled over. No one would tell her. No one was "trembling in fear". As I stated, I misspoke calling him a Sherrif, it was the City Police Chief of Hartsville. If I feel you've mistreated a member of my family, I'm going to confront you; badge or no badge. I can't believe you wouldn't do the same.

I can assure you the answer would not have been “I don’t know”.

That was the exact answer she got....over and over. You are welcome to choose not to believe it, but that's what happened.

[gregintenn]

I wouldn’t get on a forum and call you a backwoods redneck hillbilly even I thought you were one. I’m a former Police Officer and took offense at your biased hateful remarks aimed at all Police Officers. There are cops on this forum that can’t stand up to you and your mindless remarks because of their jobs. I don’t have to worry about that.

I gave my opinion of this incident based on having been in their shoes. Those cops didn’t want to kill anyone; the dumbazz in the house made that happen. If these cops had been wrong this would be all over the mainstream news. It isn’t… why do you think that is?

You see my opinions and a couple of cops opinions and you decided to turn this into a cop bashing thread? Why?

Dave, I was trying to make a point, and it appears I did a very poor job of it. My point being that as human beings, there are certain things we shoud and certain things we should not do to one another. Having a badge does not change that. Kicking in a door and shooting is very, very seldom the correct way to deal with things. I know very little of how warrants are served, or who is responsible for the shooting, but I can't see any possible way that it wasn't wrong. I'm glad to read that there weren't any children accidently shot in the incident. You mentioned you were once an LEO. Would you have a problem doing what was shown in the video? The man in the house was a threat. I 'm not sure he was a threat, however, before his door was kicked in.

Edited June 5, 2011 by gregintenn

[gregintenn]

So how much was your bond?

There is no way you walked into a station or anywhere else for that matter and said ordid what you say.

Nothing against you but it doesn't happen like that at least not unless you are higher up in the food chain but even then it is very, very questionable.

And from the sounds of it you weren't in the car either. So you wife probably got her feelings hurt, embellished a bit and you got upset. Understandable. But there is no way you pinned an officer in the corner, made threats and then he did nothing but appologize. Doesn't make sense so it didn't happen the way you say. Had you done exactly like you say you would have been arrested.

Dolomite

I admit it was foolish to go into his office and throw a fit. He handled it better than he probably should have. I didn't know what else to do. I expected a filed complaint would be filed in the trash can. No, I wasn't in the car.

[Dolomite_supafly]

Dave, I was trying to make a point, and it appears I did a very poor job of it. My point being that as human beings, there are certain things we shoud and certain things we should not do to one another. Having a badge does not change that. Kicking in a door and shooting is very, very seldom the correct way to deal with things. I know very little of how warrants are served, or who is responsible for the shooting, but I can't see any possible way that it wasn't wrong. I'm glad to read that there weren't any children accidently shot in the incident. You mentioned you were once an LEO. Would you have a problem doing what was shown in the video? The man in the house was a threat. I 'm not sure he was a threat, however, before his door was kicked in.

The officers had a legal right to enter Jose's home. Jose had no legal right to resist the officer's attempt to enter into his home. When Jose resisted the officers with a firearm they are legally allowed to protect themselves from Jose but Jose on the other hand is not allowed to protect himself from officers who are legally allowed to be there. The only person who did something illegal was Jose and it cost him his life.

Had the officers made a mistake maybe things would be different but the officers, the administration and the judge, who allowed the officers to legally be there, did nothing wrong. Everything was done correctly as far as I could tell, they announced, knocked and then entered. They even spoke to the the wife before entering. She had every opportunity to tell her husband is was LE, maybe she did and maybe she didn't but either way Jose chose to point a firearm at LE and repeatedly say "I've got something for you". His actions resulted in his death.

And realistically knowing he probably has pending gun charges I would consider this a high risk warrant and use SWAT. I do not like using SWAT for most drug related search warrants unless there are other circumstances that increase the likelihood of violence. A in this case I think it was warranted.

As much as I hate to say it we have no legal right to resist officers whether they are legally right or legally wrong. Even if you know the officer is dead wrong in his actions you have no legal right to resist. You have a legal right to go to court later and seek justice but not at the time of the incident.

Dolomite

[gregintenn]

The officers had a legal right to enter Jose's home. Jose had no legal right to resist the officer's attempt to enter into his home. When Jose resisted the officers with a firearm they are legally allowed to protect themselves from Jose but Jose on the other hand is not allowed to protect himself from officers who are legally allowed to be there. The only person who did something illegal was Jose and it cost him his life.

Had the officers made a mistake maybe things would be different but the officers, the administration and the judge, who allowed the officers to legally be there, did nothing wrong. Everything was done correctly as far as I could tell, they announced, knocked and then entered. They even spoke to the the wife before entering. She had every opportunity to tell her husband is was LE, maybe she did and maybe she didn't but either way Jose chose to point a firearm at LE and repeatedly say "I've got something for you". His actions resulted in his death.

And realistically knowing he probably has pending gun charges I would consider this a high risk warrant and use SWAT. I do not like using SWAT for most drug related search warrants unless there are other circumstances that increase the likelihood of violence. A in this case I think it was warranted.

As much as I hate to say it we have no legal right to resist officers whether they are legally right or legally wrong. Even if you know the officer is dead wrong in his actions you have no legal right to resist. You have a legal right to go to court later and seek justice but not at the time of the incident.

Dolomite

Thanks. You explained it to me in a way in which I had not considered. I'm a bit quick to jump the gun at times. I'll try to work on that.

[Seaslug]

Main thing I'd suggest in my infinite ignorance, for non-emergency or non-no-knock entries, would be to always wait at least five minutes after announcing and before kicking down the door.

Give the resident a chance to get out of bed, put on his pants and figure out what hell is going on. Or get off the pot. Or zip it up. Or corral the dogs before they kick down the door.

Given at least five minutes, then if the resident doesn't believe it is police-- Police can advise the resident to call 911, and 911 dispatchers should should have been previously clued-in so that 911 dispatchers know what raids are going down and can authoritatively confirm to the resident that it really is the police at the door.

In the report referenced by Vontar, the officers stated that there was at least 1 minute between knocking and kicking down the door. Well, the officers also stated that the resident shot at them. So maybe nobody was running a stopwatch on the wait-time. If they were wrong about the wait-delay and the resident shooting, then maybe they were also wrong about the resident's purported verbal threats.

It didn't seem a minute on the video. In fact, if this video is unedited, I see them knock on the door ar 0:46 and then the door goes down at 0:53. That is 7 seconds, not 60 seconds.

The siren does sound like a car alram, but the siren goes off at 0:26. So even counting from the siren blast immediately after they pull in the driveway it is only 27 seconds until the door goes down. If the dude was asleep after a 12 hour shift at the mine then it is amazing he got out of bed and grabbed a rifle in 27 seconds. Much less figure out what hell is going on.

YouTube - Iraq war vet Jose Guerena did not open fire on SWAT team who killed him‏

Even granting that it was really 1 minute as alleged-- That is not long enough to be assured that the resident knows what is happening and can respond in a rational fashion.

If police had waited at least five minutes and had helmet video of the police talking to the guy for several minutes-- After a few minutes discussion with the resident, if they still found it desirable to kick down the door and fill Guerena with lead, then it would be a whole lot clearer to us hand-wringers and manginas that the resident knew what was going down and that the resident had willfully committed suicide by cop. It would avoid a great deal of civilian suspicion that this raid was a rushed haphazard screwup.

There are many things that bug me about para military raids, but this particular incident wouldn't bug me near as much if the police had taken enough time to make the situation clear to the resident. If the resident still wanted to get shot after waking up and a bit of discussion with the police, then that would have been his own dam biz. Darwin in action.

This is an excellent and well-reasoned post to which no one has responded. I hate that it got lost in the pissing contest that followed.

[Mr. Brooks]

Five minutes is a long time for a perp to either;

A) Destroy evidence

Or

Barricade themselves or grab a "human shield"

A five minute wait period would result in nothing but a lot of dead LEO, but from the sound of it some of you wouldn't mind that.

[mikegideon]

There was a siren before the first shot was fired. I don't care how groggy I am, if I'm standing up with an AR in my hands, I'm dropping it THEN. We can have opinions about chosen tactics, but that's not what killed the guy.

[DaveTN]

This is an excellent and well-reasoned post to which no one has responded. I hate that it got lost in the pissing contest that followed.

Five minutes is a long time for a perp to either;

A) Destroy evidence

Or

Barricade themselves or grab a "human shield"

A five minute wait period would result in nothing but a lot of dead LEO, but from the sound of it some of you wouldn't mind that.

This.

I could have typed for 10 minutes and it would have said basically the same thing. Also the risk to Officers is unacceptable.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

There was a siren before the first shot was fired. I don't care how groggy I am, if I'm standing up with an AR in my hands, I'm dropping it THEN. We can have opinions about chosen tactics, but that's not what killed the guy.

Neighbors reported hearing a car alarm and then shots. I think the widow reported hearing a car alarm. Maybe sirens should sound different than car alarms, if the siren is supposed to be a big clue? Maybe Gurerena thought that home invaders had set off one of his car alarms on the way in?

Five minutes is a long time for a perp to either;

A) Destroy evidence

Or

Barricade themselves or grab a "human shield"

A five minute wait period would result in nothing but a lot of dead LEO, but from the sound of it some of you wouldn't mind that.

This.

Also the risk to Officers is unacceptable.

In that case am curious about the difference between a knock warrant and a (more difficult to get) no-knock warrant? This was not a no-knock warrant.

Unless the videos have been edited, It took about 27 seconds to kick down the door after the police drove up. Seven seconds of which transpired after the knock.

So is the difference between a knock warrant and a no-knock warrant only seven seconds? Maybe they could have shaved a few more seconds moving faster with a no-knock. So perhaps the difference in this case between a knock and no-knock is as much as 15 seconds?

Is this a distinction without a difference? If the resident can't answer the door in 15 seconds then how is 30 seconds any different? Why do they even bother to distinguish between knock and no-knock warrants?

[DaveTN]

So is the difference between a knock warrant and a no-knock warrant only seven seconds? Maybe they could have shaved a few more seconds moving faster with a no-knock. So perhaps the difference in this case between a knock and no-knock is as much as 15 seconds?

Is this a distinction without a difference? If the resident can't answer the door in 15 seconds then how is 30 seconds any different? Why do they even bother to distinguish between knock and no-knock warrants?

Knock & Announce requires that the Officers knock and give the suspect a reasonable amount of time to answer the door. Reasonable is defined by the state courts. The Supreme Court has upheld warrants that were 15-20 seconds.

No knocks warrants are harder to get because they generally require the Officer requesting the warrant to show that there is evidence that a likelihood of violence or evidence destruction exists.

[mikegideon]

Neighbors reported hearing a car alarm and then shots. I think the widow reported hearing a car alarm. Maybe sirens should sound different than car alarms, if the siren is supposed to be a big clue? Maybe Gurerena thought that home invaders had set off one of his car alarms on the way in?

Maybe car alarms should sound different than sirens. They also announced themselves in both languages. We can go at this all day. It's a shame that he didn't believe it was the cops, if that's what you think really happened.

[Seaslug]

This.

I could have typed for 10 minutes and it would have said basically the same thing. Also the risk to Officers is unacceptable.

Lester's 5-minute suggestion was just abitrary and off-the-cuff. The real point of his post seems to have gone right over your head. If the tactics were as justifiable as you claim, then why all the misinformation? Why lie about Mr. Guerena firing on officers or the officers seeing "muzzle flash"? Since when does 7 seconds equal "a minute"? Also, how is it that the department has enough surveillance to put together a "War and Peace"-style warrant, but they don't realize that the wife and child are at home? And if the risk to officers is unacceptable, as you say, then why put them in that position in the first place? People who actually understand the concepts of cost-benefit analysis and outcome expectancy will realize how stupid these tactics (and the resulting spin control) really are.