.223 case separation - interesting pics

[East_TN_Patriot]

A buddy of mine posted these pics of a case separation he had with his AR-15. He said the round that failed actually fired properly and he didn't notice the problem until the next round failed to chamber properly because it nosed into the front half of the broken case that was still in the chamber. I personally have never seen anything like this before, but another friend said he thought it was due to a headspace issue with the rifle (possible because my buddy builds his own rifles). These were reloads, but he said that it was brass that he sized several years ago and put away so he is unsure where he got it or the condition of the press it was sized on. This likely contributed to the problem. I also personally suspect a dirty chamber may be partially to blame as well.

In any case, interesting to say the least.

[DWARREN123]

Looks almost like it was cut instead of torn. Interesting failure.

[Dolomite_supafly]

It has been fired and resized several times. What happens upon firing is the front of the case swells and locks into place while the rear of the case moves back against the bolt face. This is what causes cases to stretch and the need for trimming. The stretching generally occurs a little lower but it is possible to have split where it did.

The way to check is take some of the other brass from the same lot. Take a paperclip or something else and feel the inside of the case along the wall. If you feel a ridge that is where the case is stretching. I check mine every few reloadings for the ridge and if I find any I throw them out to prevent what happened here.

Dolomite

[leroy]

To add to Dolomites post a bit; we used to have this problem pretty regularly when shooting the 300 win mags. The problem is pushing the shoulder of the case back too much; which is easy to do with full resizing like ya need to do with a 223. Ive found that the best investment ya can make with bottleneck cartridges (...esp the 223...) is a case gage. Link here: L.E. Wilson Case Length Headspace Gage 223 Remington - MidwayUSA .

You can adjust your resizing die correctly with the gage. It will stop the case stretching and splitting problems. Just follow the instructions with the case gage and carefully adjust your resizing die to set the case head dead flush with the top of the gage (...or a couple or 3 thousands below flush... -- i think the spec is minus 10...) ; the see if it will chamber in your rifle. If not, adjust the die down a bit more and recheck. That makes the case fit the chamber within specs and will cut down on the stretching and case failures.

Hope this helps.

leroy

[East_TN_Patriot]

This is all great info for me since I am getting set up to reload .223 for my AR. I've added a headspace gauge and now this case length gauge to my shopping list. Don't feel like dealing with any busted cases in my rifle.

[Dolomite_supafly]

This is all great info for me since I am getting set up to reload .223 for my AR. I've added a headspace gauge and now this case length gauge to my shopping list. Don't feel like dealing with any busted cases in my rifle.

Don't buy a headspace gauge. The headspace is set on the AR using the barrel extension. If the headspace was off there is no way to adjust headspace after the gas hole has been drilled and the barrel extension is in place. You could adjust the headspace but it would cost mre to fix than the cost of a new barrel.

When reloading for the 223 (or any bottlenecked cartridge for that matter) make sure to seperate the neck sizing and the body sizing. DO NOT do it all in one operation unless you only want your brass to last a few loadings. You can set neck tension very tight by filing the mandrel to be a bit thinner if you want. What I mean by seperate is use a Lee collet die for the neck sizing only and use a Redding body die for the body only. Then you can set the body die to only touch the shoulder of the fired case. This keeps the case as close to your chamber's dimensions as possible and that minimizes case stretch. It is almost like fire forming to your chamber then only neck sizing a lot of bolt gun guys do. It adds a step but minimizes the wear on your brass. You may also need a small base body die but I would buy that when the problem shows up becaus not all AR's have the problem.

The all in one Lee sizing die wears brass out quickly and unless you anneal there is nothing you can really do about it. The reason why the the die squeezes the neck down way past the minimum than pulls the mandrel back through the case neck to give it its final dimension. This opens the case mouth back up. This squeezing then opening up over works the brass like a copper wire that you bend over and over again, eventually it will break. Those dies were good when brass was cheap and you weren't worried about getting more than a couple of loadings out of each piece of brass.

And as Leroy said if your cases need more of a shoulder bump then add a 1/8 turn and do it again. Once you have the cases so they will chamber then the dies are set to YOUR chamber. This minimizes the swelling and stratching of your brass because your brass is just barely smaller than your chamber. The only down side to this is if you have a loose chamber then your sized cases might not work in other 223 guns that have tighter chambers.

Dolomite

[East_TN_Patriot]

Again, more good info. I have the all-in-one Lee die right now, so I'll get the separate dies and run the brass through them instead.

My rifle is a competition rifle made by Compass Lake Engineering, so I'd be shocked if it had a loose chamber. I want to reload to try and get the most out of the rifle that I can. I am considering trying my hand at some service rifle competition shooting, so it will be worth getting the proper reloading setup.

[TNFlyer]

To add to Dolomites post a bit; we used to have this problem pretty regularly when shooting the 300 win mags. The problem is pushing the shoulder of the case back too much; which is easy to do with full resizing like ya need to do with a 223. Ive found that the best investment ya can make with bottleneck cartridges (...esp the 223...) is a case gage. Link here: L.E. Wilson Case Length Headspace Gage 223 Remington - MidwayUSA .

You can adjust your resizing die correctly with the gage. It will stop the case stretching and splitting problems. Just follow the instructions with the case gage and carefully adjust your resizing die to set the case head dead flush with the top of the gage (...or a couple or 3 thousands below flush... -- i think the spec is minus 10...) ; the see if it will chamber in your rifle. If not, adjust the die down a bit more and recheck. That makes the case fit the chamber within specs and will cut down on the stretching and case failures.

Hope this helps.

leroy

So after reading this post and another I got to researching this issue a little bit more. From what I understand the Wilson and other gages like it are just measuring standard chamber size. But, with the Hornady Lock N Load headspace gages you could measure your fired brass setup your resizing die for whatever amount you wanted your shoulder set back. I hope my line of thinking is correct. I'm fairly new to reloading and have been picking up bits and pieces here and there. But, it seems like with the Hornady gage you could get a better fit in your particular chamber for the case. Although your reloads may not work in someone elses gun.

[leroy]

TN:_______________

In the "old days" (...before us rustic rednecks learned about headspace gages...), we did the thing that Dolomite recomends. We simply neck sized the brass that we used; never bumping the shoulder back. The "ultimate" fit for any rifle cartrige is the neck size option. The way we did it is exactly as he explained. We took a round and resized it only enough for the case head to sit exactly flush with the specific rifle chamber doin a careful "bump back" of the case neck to shoulder. This is, indeed, the ultimate fitting of brass to a specific rifle chamber method. There is none better. This is the exact method that the benchrest shooters used to use.

Problems come in when ya have two different rifles chambered for the same caliber. In my case, we had two 300 win mags. ....one chamber was deeper than the other (...this is not unusual. Chambering reamers both vary in acceptable manufacturing tolerances and wear from use; giving these slight but troublesome varriations in diameter and length....). This caused us to bump the shoulder back for both of 'em; loading for the "short chamber".

We would be lucky to get five or six firings using this system with this "hard kicker". The brass would grow and need a re-trim. The extra material we were trimming of was stretching from the base of the brass (...what's the reason for dolomites excellent instruction on inspectinb brass looking for this thin spot...).

The bottom line:

...If ya got one rifle; neck sizing works just fine. With two; it will be a miracle if a neck sized round for one rifle will work thru the action of a second identical caliber. (...Remember, this is for bolt guns...).

...The problem i see with neck sizing for semi autos (...ars...) is the problem of long/short chambering and a tight chamber vs a "loose" chamber.

...I would much perfer to size the 223 brass down to minimum size (...that is measured by the case gage...) for reliability of functioning for weapons that absolutely need to be reliable and fire every time ya pull the trigger.

...For the match shooting guys, who need to get the absolute max accuracy out of reloaded ammunition and where reliability of function is secondary; the neck and chamber sizing option is an excellent (...and the ultimate...) method of tailoring ammo to a specific rifle.

Hope this helps.

leroy

[TNFlyer]

TN:_______________

In the "old days" (...before us rustic rednecks learned about headspace gages...), we did the thing that Dolomite recomends. We simply neck sized the brass that we used; never bumping the shoulder back. The "ultimate" fit for any rifle cartrige is the neck size option. The way we did it is exactly as he explained. We took a round and resized it only enough for the case head to sit exactly flush with the specific rifle chamber doin a careful "bump back" of the case neck to shoulder. This is, indeed, the ultimate fitting of brass to a specific rifle chamber method. There is none better. This is the exact method that the benchrest shooters used to use.

Problems come in when ya have two different rifles chambered for the same caliber. In my case, we had two 300 win mags. ....one chamber was deeper than the other (...this is not unusual. Chambering reamers both vary in acceptable manufacturing tolerances and wear from use; giving these slight but troublesome varriations in diameter and length....). This caused us to bump the shoulder back for both of 'em; loading for the "short chamber".

We would be lucky to get five or six firings using this system with this "hard kicker". The brass would grow and need a re-trim. The extra material we were trimming of was stretching from the base of the brass (...what's the reason for dolomites excellent instruction on inspectinb brass looking for this thin spot...).

The bottom line:

...If ya got one rifle; neck sizing works just fine. With two; it will be a miracle if a neck sized round for one rifle will work thru the action of a second identical caliber. (...Remember, this is for bolt guns...).

...The problem i see with neck sizing for semi autos (...ars...) is the problem of long/short chambering and a tight chamber vs a "loose" chamber.

...I would much perfer to size the 223 brass down to minimum size (...that is measured by the case gage...) for reliability of functioning for weapons that absolutely need to be reliable and fire every time ya pull the trigger.

...For the match shooting guys, who need to get the absolute max accuracy out of reloaded ammunition and where reliability of function is secondary; the neck and chamber sizing option is an excellent (...and the ultimate...) method of tailoring ammo to a specific rifle.

Hope this helps.

leroy

leroy, thanks for the reply.

I am somewhat familiar in theory of what you are talking about. And, I understand the need for semi-auto rifle like an AR to be resized different than a bolt gun.

I am loading for two AR's chambered in .223 and have been full length resizing them. But, say I take a case fired from each rifle measure both cases figure out which chamber is smaller, use a full length sizing die setup to only set back the shoulder .003 from the measurement on the smaller chamber. How would this be different than what Dolomite was saying other than being one process instead of two? Would I still be working the brass harder than by doing two separate operations?

So I guess what my question is if I followed Dolomites process of neck sizing then body sizing which gage would be of most benefit?

Hornady Lock-N-Load Headspace Gage 5 Bushing Set with Comparator - MidwayUSA

or

L.E. Wilson Case Length Headspace Gage 223 Remington - MidwayUSA

[Dolomite_supafly]

I am not sure why you need a headspace gauge or the need to measure your chamber. The headspace is already set on your rifles. I would just do what I said and use a Lee collet die then use a Redding body die when sizing for your AR. By separating those operations you will see a significant increase in brass life compared to a all-in-one die. and you won't have theproblems of neck sizing only in an auto.

Neck sizing only for an AR can be problematic or at least it was for me. Once I added the body die to the mix everything was great.

Neck sizing works great in bolt guns. The reason is if the case swells a little you can leverage close the bolt on the round. With an auto and even an AR you will only stick a live round in the chamber. You can't apply enough force to the forward assist to seat the round and bolt most times.

If you want I can call and talk to you about this and my experiences reloading.

Dolomite

[leroy]

Dolomite and TN:_____________

The "headspace"gage name is a bit misleading. The L. E. Wilson gage is simply a "go/no go" gage that sets the high and low ends of the "standard" chamber. As i remember, that amounts to about .010 in length. The gage has a little relief cut on top to give this "high/low" indication visually (...if ya have good eyes...). Or to allow ya to measure the actual overall case length with a depth gage. The gage will also do a check on neck "growth" to tell ya when to trim.

Havin said all that: I think Dolomite's system is by far the best for competition ammo loading. Resizing the body as a separate operation ensures that the AR will reliably chamber and feed the target rounds.

Hope this helps.

leroy