Starbucks pro gun?

[East_TN_Patriot]

I honestly think HCP holders that are so against OC make a bigger deal out of it then the general public. I have yet to have a bad experience OC'ing. Even at Starbucks which I just returned from

Perhaps you are right about that point. And Erik makes another good observation that most people don't pay that much attention anyhow. Heck, maybe I'll try it next time I head to Starbucks. I kind of like the idea of sipping on my triple shot latte with my PPS in its crocodile trim holster. It may bring some class to the place. I'll be sure to wear my Axe body spray too and maybe some freaky hippie chick will hit on me.

[Erik88]

I honestly think HCP holders that are so against OC make a bigger deal out of it then the general public.

I would agree with this, at least the general public in TN.Maybe not in other states.

I would never OC in a state/place where it is highly frowned upon. Spend some time on opencarry.org and you will find that generally speaking when someone gets grief when OCing they are in a place where they should have kept it covered up. I won't say they were "asking for it" but they should have known better. Or they DID know better and that is why they carry tape recorders in their pockets.

[Erik88]

Perhaps you are right about that point. And Erik makes another good observation that most people don't pay that much attention anyhow. Heck, maybe I'll try it next time I head to Starbucks. I kind of like the idea of sipping on my triple shot latte with my PPS in its crocodile trim holster. It may bring some class to the place. I'll be sure to wear my Axe body spray too and maybe some freaky hippie chick will hit on me.

another thing to consider also is that so many people carry items on their belt in plain view other than guns. I see guys carrying around big black cell phones all the time and I notice it right away because I'm a gun guy and I always look to see if it is someone OCing. Hell, I bet a majority of the time that people OC a lot of the general public never notices it.

I've posted this before here but I once saw a guy with his S/O at West Town Mall who was OC. The mall was PACKED and nobody seemed to notice except me. I was behind the guy for a long time walking through the mall and honestly didn't see a single person do a double take to the guy. It's that .0001% of the population who freak out and make a scene of it.

[East_TN_Patriot]

It's that .0001% of the population who freak out and make a scene of it.

Well, you know me, and I am surrounded by gun-hating liberals all day every day, so that .0001% seems more like 50% or more.

[Mike.357]

My question to you is, departmental rules aside, why do you think you as a police officer and all other police officers open carry while in uniform? Why don't they conceal carry?

I would guess that everyone knows cops carry guns, so what is the point of a cop in uniform concealing? You darn well know he has a gun.

[Guest kirkosaurus]

Do I wish society were more open to OC? Sure. Maybe it's better where you are because I am in Knoxville and I can see other parts of the state being much more open-minded regarding open carry.

This guy is in Knoxville and has never had a problem OCing:

http://www.wallsofthecity.net/category/exposing-my-piece

[Guest kirkosaurus]

I would guess that everyone knows cops carry guns, so what is the point of a cop in uniform concealing? You darn well know he has a gun.

The point being made is if concealed carry is such a tactical advantage then LE would be doing it.

Your statement suggests that someone not knowing you are carrying is a defensive tactical advantage. It simply isn't.

[East_TN_Patriot]

The point being made is if concealed carry is such a tactical advantage then LE would be doing it.

Your statement suggests that someone not knowing you are carrying is a defensive tactical advantage. It simply isn't.

Of course, not all cops open carry. Plenty of plain clothes and undercover cops carry concealed, sometimes deeply concealed. It's because they and everyone else knows that open carry of firearms is not the typical behavior in our society. I'm not aware of anyone here claiming that it's not easier to access a firearm when it is carried in the open. The debate is the actual wisdom of such a decision. Simple fact of the matter is that most people in our world agree that concealed carry is more appropriate based on the social norms of the day. I get the point that this won't change unless more people open carry, but as we've already agreed, making a production of it isn't a good idea and won't win over anyone.

[Guest Jon]

I would agree with this, at least the general public in TN.Maybe not in other states.

I would never OC in a state/place where it is highly frowned upon. Spend some time on opencarry.org and you will find that generally speaking when someone gets grief when OCing they are in a place where they should have kept it covered up. I won't say they were "asking for it" but they should have known better. Or they DID know better and that is why they carry tape recorders in their pockets.

I also agree there is a time and place for OC. I am strongly for OC because, up till 30 minutes ago, I carried a G22 which is a pain to conceal. But I would still try if I was going somewhere perhaps where I felt OC would be a headache. Not that I would really care if someone saw the gun, I just wouldnt want to deal with police, etc. I guess like a campground or something might be a place that I would conceal. Wouldn't want JR telling his daddy he saw a man with a gun and the search be on for me.

[Guest kirkosaurus]

Of course, not all cops open carry. Plenty of plain clothes and undercover cops carry concealed, sometimes deeply concealed. It's because they and everyone else knows that open carry of firearms is not the typical behavior in our society.

No, it's because they are UNDERCOVER and don't want anyone to know they have a firearm because that's um... part of being undercover. Being a former cop you should know this.

Look, I agree OC is not always appropriate. The example I've given before is church. Being on a rotating schedule for nursery duty and playing in the band it's just not appropriate for me to OC there.

But those of you who are anti-OC need to realize the more normal people going about their everyday business OCing and people are more acclimated to seeing normal law abiding citizens carry firearms the better it is overall for you as a gun owner and gun rights in general.

[DaveTN]

The point being made is if concealed carry is such a tactical advantage then LE would be doing it.

Really??

You didn't read that before you posted it did you?

Your statement suggests that someone not knowing you are carrying is a defensive tactical advantage. It simply isn't.

Sure it’s true… without a doubt.

But, by all means, open carry… this is Tennessee it’s legal to do so as long as you have paid for the privilege.

[Guest kirkosaurus]

When it comes to bad guys, I can see it being a good thing and a bad thing. As far as deterrence, I can buy that argument, but I can also see it as making yourself a target.

Not to pick on you or anything but just have to add once again that this is one of those myths that keeps being brought up and has no basis to substantiate being so scared this will happen. This is so rare that you can say that it just doesn't happen. Sure there are maybe, what, 3 instances of this that people have been able to document? But mostly criminals pick the path of least resistance. If they see someone with a gun they will go find some easy sheep. I don't live in fear over the .00001% that may be stupid enough to target me for my gun. The benefits far out weigh the possibility that that will ever happen. Statistics show that just the mere presence of a gun stop crime. The more OC'ing being done the less crime will happen.

[Guest kirkosaurus]

Really??

You didn't read that before you posted it did you?

huh? Yeah, I read it before I posted and reading it again. What's your point?

Sure it’s true… without a doubt.

But, by all means, open carry… this is Tennessee it’s legal to do so as long as you have paid for the privilege.

Sorry, but CC has no tactical defensive benefit over OC. As an offensive tactic CC is great but as a defensive tactic is sucks. Seriously, think about it. Unless are purposely looking to lure a bad guy in by looking like a defenseless sheep so you can shoot him CC is not defensively superior to OC.

[Guest friesepferd]

wow. yet ANOTHER thread completely hijacked by two people arguing about CC vs OC.

Let me guess.. the 9mm vs 45acp argument is next.

*Yells "9mm IS BETTER!"*

*runs and hides, and never opens this thread again*

[East_TN_Patriot]

No, it's because they are UNDERCOVER and don't want anyone to know they have a firearm because that's um... part of being undercover. Being a former cop you should know this.

Look, I agree OC is not always appropriate. The example I've given before is church. Being on a rotating schedule for nursery duty and playing in the band it's just not appropriate for me to OC there.

But those of you who are anti-OC need to realize the more normal people going about their everyday business OCing and people are more acclimated to seeing normal law abiding citizens carry firearms the better it is overall for you as a gun owner and gun rights in general.

Oh... you mean that it's essential because the majority of society fully knows that typically the only people who OC are cops? Huh... You mean undercover cops conceal because they know it's important to keep a low profile and bad guys know that cops open carry and would look for that? Huh... They conceal even if it compromises their tactical advantage should they need to use their firearm? Huh... Kind of puts a damper on the "cops open carry so everyone else should too" argument in my mind.

We do clearly agree that OC is not always appropriate so the argument becomes one very similar to the caliber debate. One must do what they feel is in their best interest and choose the method that they feel most comfortable with given the situations they plan to encounter. I think that CCW is generally the best option, but many feel differently. I'll concede that perhaps my perception of society's acceptance of OC is incorrect, but like I said before, I think there is a legitimate reason why most agencies I am aware of prohibit officers from open-carry while off duty.

It's kind of the "just cuz you can, doesn't mean you should" thing. You can technically go about your daily life wearing swimming trunks, no shirt, no shoes, and don't bathe, but based on social standards, it's probably not a good idea. You can wear your pants so low that your boxers hang out the back, but it doesn't mean you should. You can sling an AR-15 over your shoulder and walk to the Weigels, but it doesn't mean you should - and yes, I know that a holstered pistol is different than an AR-15. That's just my take on it.

I'm not hostile to open-carry per se, but we do also agree that doing it for political purposes is not the smartest thing in the world for our cause. Heck, you can OC, I'll CC, and we'll meet at Starbucks for a cup of coffee.

Edited May 31, 2011 by East_TN_Patriot

[Guest kirkosaurus]

Oh... you mean that it's essential because the majority of society fully knows that typically the only people who OC are cops? Huh...

WRONG. There are 43 states that have some kind of open carry. It is done on a regular basis by many people other than LE. This statement speaks volumes about your position.

You mean undercover cops conceal because they know it's important to keep a low profile and bad guys know that cops open carry and would look for that? Huh...

You're comparing the position of an undercover cop who has to not look like a cop as part of his role in an offensive duty to an average citizen who open carries for defense? Seriously? Two totally different roles. Again, this statement shows your continued illusion that keeping a low profile and looking like sheep is supposed to be defensively better than showing your cards and deterring the crime before it begins.

They conceal even if it compromises their tactical advantage should they need to use their firearm? Huh... Kind of puts a damper on the "cops open carry so everyone else should too" argument in my mind.

Again, they conceal because it's part of their duty to not look like a cop. Not because it has some kind of tactical advantage. And again, as a former cop this is something you should know.

Heck, you can OC, I'll CC, and we'll meet at Starbucks for a cup of coffee.

We’ll do that next time I’m in Knoxville or you’re in Nashville. I hope you’ll have my back when someone targets me for my gun.

Edited June 19, 2011 by kirkosaurus

[Guest kirkosaurus]

It's kind of the "just cuz you can, doesn't mean you should" thing.

And BTW, nowhere in any if my arguments have you ever heard me say anything close to this being a reason to open carry so why are you bringing it up?