Gun City Incident

[Guest 270win]

I hope this guy recovers ok and am glad no one was killed.

I think some of the Walther P99's have a decocker on top and have a heavy first shot. This reminds all of us to be very careful and never be off guard.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

Lol... I heard about this first thing Sunday morning. I got a text in Church from a higher up at MPD and almost lost it with the giggles. Sorry, but you just don't understand how many years of Buford stories I have heard and witnessed first hand. Dudes done some crazy and unsafe stuff.This one actually doesn't even get a prize as the most surprising. You should see his MPD file, lol. Yall should really have been around back in the day when he let his students dry fire on the range and he would instruct/observe the student from in front of the gun thats being dry fired. Yes... he would stand in front and look down the barrel at the student while that were dry firing right at his head. I figured it was only a matter of time until he capped himself or someone else in class. I decided to wait a bit to chime in on his latest folly.

Ok... here what all this boils down too. If your around firearms long enough eventually you are going to have an AD (Accidental Discharge). That being said, what separates the incompetent morons from safe gun handlers is practicing gun safety rules when your "Rut Row" happens. If he had been pointing the firearm in a safe direction he wouldn't have shot himself. IMHO this boils down to complete INCOMPETENCE as a FIREARMS INSTRUCTOR. Either he cant clear a handgun properly or he cant follow safe gun handling practices... or both. Its really simple as that. Its on him and no one else!!!

I call complete Bull**** on the "gun went off while I was racking he slide into battery" or whatever lame excuse he used. One things for sure in my mind HE PULLED THE FREAKING TRIGGER. Wonder what his students saw? You noticed he blamed everything and everyone but his incompetence. Either Him or his staff should have checked all guns prior to them being let into the class. Any knowledgeable instructor or staff knows that novices are just that... novices.. they are "untrained"... They don't have firearms knowledge. You never take their word for anything involving safety, you ALWAYS make sure yourself.

Now all that being said, if Buford's claim has any merit at all we will all see him involved in a lawsuit against Smith and Wesson/Walther very soon and it will be all over the news. I can almost guarantee that wont be the case.

In short I'm glad no one else got hurt. I cant fathom having to deal with anything like that. Sorry if I offend anyone for simply telling it like it is. I hate it happened, but I dont feel sorry for him because its been a long time coming. I have sat back for 17 years and listened to Buford bad mouth everyone else that he deemed a threat in our industry. Whats amazing is him and his students have about the worst track record I have ever seen with accidents. Id like to know the statistics of his students involvement with law enforcement, self defense shootings, and being shot themselves. With all that happened to him he's never took the time to check out himself in the mirror and be humble. I was told he had just gotten his state instructor certification back from the state where he had lost it. I wonder if this will be the icing on the cake with them. It appears nothing has changed and time will tell.

Edited May 23, 2011 by GLOCKMEISTER

[mikegideon]

Didn't offend me at all. I would feel a little sorry for the guy if he hadn't written that BS email.

[TN-popo]

I would feel a little sorry for the guy if he hadn't written that BS email.

Yep, I wasn't going to say a thing about it until I read his spew.

[Oh Shoot]

That's what I get for typing while I was on the phone. I meant XD and typed M&P. Though I think it's only a couple of the XDs. Corrected above.

Nope. No XD has the double strike capability.

I'm thinking Taurus may be alone in this among striker fired guns?

- OS

[MacGyver]

Nope. No XD has the double strike capability.

I'm thinking Taurus may be alone in this among striker fired guns?

- OS

Not even the early ones? Hmm. Learn something every day. I would have sworn that was one of the hyped features when they were first introduced.

Thanks. Now I'm actually going to have to research which weapons are multiple strike capable. I really didn't think I cared this morning, but now I want to know.

[Oh Shoot]

Not even the early ones?...

Nope, the first branded XDs are identical to the short-lived HS2000 US distribution, function wise.

- OS

[MacGyver]

Apparently Taurus is really touting the feature in their new stuff. The 709 slim has it. As does the PT145

[Dolomite_supafly]

Apparently Taurus is really touting the feature in their new stuff. The 709 slim has it. As does the PT145

Personally if I have a dead round I will just clear it and put a fresh on in the chamber but I have had a lot of training that enables me to do this without much thought. I can see a person realtively new to firearms or one that hasn't practiced a lot defaulting into pulling the trigger over and over again under the stress of a gunfight. I have practiced clearing duds to make the process second nature for me.

I think the second strike capability is over advertised because the odds of getting into a gunfight are remote enough without having a dud round. The odds of both happening are so astronomical that designing a weapon to be able to do this seems like nothing more than a advertising gimic to me. I realize having a dud round does happen but with modern ammunition it is such a rarity. I like the feature but in all likelyhood I would never use it or at least try to rely on it. Even when I am shooting and training with my 24/7 OSS DS I never use the second strike feature for fear of defaulting to that rather than clearing the dud and continuing the fight.

I liken the 24/7's function to that of a Beretta 92. You can second strike with it as well but in the military we always trained to clear the malfunction. When we had 45's we did the same thing, clear the malfunction rather than try to recock it.

Dolomite

[TN-popo]

Personally if I have a dead round I will just clear it and put a fresh on in the chamber but I have had a lot of training that enables me to do this without much thought. I can see a person realtively new to firearms or one that hasn't practiced a lot defaulting into pulling the trigger over and over again under the stress of a gunfight. I have practiced clearing duds to make the process second nature for me.

I think the second strike capability is over advertised because the odds of getting into a gunfight are remote enough without having a dud round. The odds of both happening are so astronomical that designing a weapon to be able to do this seems like nothing more than a advertising gimic to me. I realize having a dud round does happen but with modern ammunition it is such a rarity. I like the feature but in all likelyhood I would never use it or at least try to rely on it. Even when I am shooting and training with my 24/7 OSS DS I never use the second strike feature for fear of defaulting to that rather than clearing the dud and continuing the fight.

Dolomite

+1 It's a worthless feature.

"Tap and Rack" should be anyone's default response to a "click."

[MacGyver]

+1 It's a worthless feature.

"Tap and Rack" should be anyone's default response to a "click."

Tap and rack is my default, too. I'd rather go right to fixing the problem as opposed to hoping it works a second time. Someone in this thread once said that, "if your weapon malfunctions in a fight, you've got the rest of your life to fix it." I go for the fix.

The more I have thought about the multiple strike feature today, the more I don't like it. I know the reason for it on the P99 AS. It's to pacify some police departments. You've got a long heavy pull when it has been decocked, or a short light pull when the striker has been charged. Best of both worlds.

I can't see it being useful other than maybe plinking and having a round fail to detonate. I guess you could try again.

[MacGyver]

I am interested, though. I want to know who includes the feature.

[TGO David]

Did the student make a mistake? Looks like it.

However, ultimately, gun safety lies with the current handler of the gun.

Also, unless seriously defective (highly doubtful), that pistol is not going to fire unless the trigger is pulled.

In reading his statement, specifically paragraph 3, to blame what happened on "the other guy," or the "striker fired gun," is weak and displays questionable character at best.

Also, regarding paragraph 4 and his safety practices...routinely instructing entire classes to point their handguns at him and dryfire, "so they know what it feels like," seems to contradict.

This.

Oh, and good to see you posting again.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Tap and rack is my default, too. I'd rather go right to fixing the problem as opposed to hoping it works a second time. Someone in this thread once said that, "if your weapon malfunctions in a fight, you've got the rest of your life to fix it." I go for the fix.

The more I have thought about the multiple strike feature today, the more I don't like it. I know the reason for it on the P99 AS. It's to pacify some police departments. You've got a long heavy pull when it has been decocked, or a short light pull when the striker has been charged. Best of both worlds.

I can't see it being useful other than maybe plinking and having a round fail to detonate. I guess you could try again.

Agreed I would tap & rack in an emergency.

If a round fails to light off when casual plinking, I don't see any harm in giving the dead round a second chance. Unless one thinks that all shooting should be defense practice.

If shooting bulk-pak .22 ammo, there is a bit of a chance that a failed cheap round will go bang if you give it another chance. Some batches of cheap .22 are so bad that it isn't worth pulling the trigger twice on a dud. I rarely see a dead round with centerfire.

The double-strike in a revolver is better, because if the round doesn't go off, the next strike is on a different bullet.

Another place double-strike could come in handy-- I have a BeamHit laser target. Occasionally will use it a lot, and then it gets neglected for a long time. The laser fits in the barrel and sends a light pulse when it hears the trigger snap. The target beeps and increments the hit count when hit. Fun in the living room sometimes.

Revolvers work great with the BeamHit, double action or even single because it isn't inconvenient to cock the revolver hammer.

Beretta 92 or CZ 75 works great, either double or single action. It is easy to cock them for every shot if ya wanna do single action.

1911 probably wouldn't be any more inconvenient that running a 92 in single action mode.

But draw-doubletap practice with for instance the Kahr won't work. You have to rack the slide between each shot. Not only a tedious exercise, but I'd be worried about prematurely wearing the gun if I did too much slide-racking between every laser shot. Every time you rack it would eject another snap-cap, so you would have to stop ever 8 rounds and pick up the snap caps off the living room floor and reload the mag.

[Guest 10mm4me]

I just got an email from Buford Tune about the accident. Here it is:

This weekend (May 14th, 2011) I was injured in security class when a student’s handgun accidentally discharged in class. I was injured and will require some surgery. Fortunately, no one else was physically injured and my injuries were not life threatening. Several have called to ask what happened and how I was doing. I thought it would be appropriate to share the facts because rumors, even well intended ones, can get out of control.

Our longstanding policy is that we tell EVERYONE that they shall NOT bring any loaded firearms, magazines or speed loaders into the classroom. Everyone is required to bring their ammo separate so the firearm, equipment and the ammo can be checked during the class so that potential problems can be addressed before we get to the range.

A student violated that rule and brought a handgun (Walther P99, .40 cal) into the classroom with the magazine removed but with a round chambered. The handgun was in a case and he said that the gun was unloaded. I picked up the gun out of the gun case to inspect the handgun and verify the condition and was holding the gun in my right hand and pushed the slide back with my left hand to check the chamber nonetheless. The gun, which has a striker firing mechanism, discharged while being racked. The round struck the first joint of my little finger on my left hand.

I always try to be as safe as possible in the classes and on the range. However, accidents do happen and although most accidents can be prevented there will be times when an accident or a malfunction will still happen. We train to anticipate these problems but even that training is not a 100% guarantee that nothing will go wrong.

The rumors and the Monday morning Quarterbacks’ have already started. I would like to remind everyone that if you were not here you do not know what happen and if you want the truth and not the rumors and tales call APPS and do not listen to the street talk.

Thanks to all of you,

Buford

BS!!!! There is no freeking way. He pulled the trigger, he is an idiot, he should not be an instructor, and Gun City should be closed, condemned, and burned.

[Guest South-Precinct]

Just received this from a Buddy who was sent a message from Buford Tune regarding the posts about his mishap. He asked Buford to reply to the posts if he wanted to add anything to his defense. Here is what he wrote:

"They are all fools and I have no idea as to what they are talking about and they do not deserve an answer from me."

[zgunbear]

Just received this from a Buddy who was sent a message from Buford Tune regarding the posts about his mishap. He asked Buford to reply to the posts if he wanted to add anything to his defense. Here is what he wrote:

"They are all fools and I have no idea as to what they are talking about and they do not deserve an answer from me."

Same old arrogant holier than thou Buford. Good to see age hasn't mellowed him any.

[Oh Shoot]

Just received this from a Buddy who was sent a message from Buford Tune regarding the posts about his mishap. He asked Buford to reply to the posts if he wanted to add anything to his defense. Here is what he wrote:

"They are all fools and I have no idea as to what they are talking about and they do not deserve an answer from me."

Good thing for Will Rogers he never had a chance to meet Mr. Tune.

- OS

[dunndw]

AH...well....at least Bufords...tune didn't change. I was hoping the "accident" would make him a bit more humble...guess not. My opinion of him just went even lower

[TGO David]

Just received this from a Buddy who was sent a message from Buford Tune regarding the posts about his mishap. He asked Buford to reply to the posts if he wanted to add anything to his defense. Here is what he wrote:

"They are all fools and I have no idea as to what they are talking about and they do not deserve an answer from me."

Such as the case may be, but we're all fools who still have our pinkies. Arrogant dick.

[dralarms]

Such as the case may be, but we're all fools who still have our pinkies. Arrogant dick.

Exactly

[Dolomite_supafly]

What is Buford Tune's background?

Just curious what qualifications or experience he has, other than being arrogant, for him to be teaching others?

It would be interesting to hear if he has any military background.

Dolomite

Neverimind I found it:

http://www.appstraining.com/resumebtune%2011-05.pdf

Here is his Facebook page in case anyone wanted to wish his pinky well

Buford Tune | Facebook

Edited May 21, 2011 by Dolomite_supafly

[Guest FHTMcrt]

+1 It's a worthless feature.

"Tap and Rack" should be anyone's default response to a "click."

Okay, what is "Tap and Rack?"

[BigPoppa]

Okay, what is "Tap and Rack?"

"TAP" the magazine to make sure it is seated properly, then "RACK" the slide to chamber a fresh round.

TAP-RACK-READY is the standard malfunction drill when a round fails to fire (misfire, hard primer, etc.)

[Guest ArmaDeFuego]

Tap & Rack