Indiana repeals the 4th amendment?????

[DaveTN]

Thanks Dave. I had'nt seen this one. This one will be interesting. Sixty holes in one body is a lot of shootin. They musta thought he was a thoroughly dangerous man.

leroy

Both sides agree that he was pointing a rifle at them. One side says it was an AR the other side says it was an AK….. Like it matters.

The video shows that they arrived in a huge Police vehicle, the siren was blaring, The Officers were in normal SWAT uniforms, they were yelling they were the Police. He chose to respond to that by pointing a rifle at them.

I would have fired. (Based on the info given)

[Worriedman]

Both sides agree that he was pointing a rifle at them. One side says it was an AR the other side says it was an AK….. Like it matters.

The video shows that they arrived in a huge Police vehicle, the siren was blaring, The Officers were in normal SWAT uniforms, they were yelling they were the Police. He chose to respond to that by pointing a rifle at them.

I would have fired. (Based on the info given)

I have not been keeping up with this one, where can I see video showing the Police arriving with their sirens on?

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Perhaps we will eventually discover that Right Wing Hate Speech caused Guerena's death.

It is just that the war on drugs put the police and the resident in that situation. Neither the police nor Guerena necessarily did anything incredibly unreasonable (from their points of view) given the situation. The system needs to be changed so that such situations do not have such high odds of occuring.

Supposedly the wife woke Guerena from a sound sleep telling him about armed men outside the house. Then he jumped up, grabbed a rifle and sent wife and kids to hide in the closet. If that is what happened inside the house then it doesn't sound like an unreasonable response.

Here is another recent video from Tucson Pima County of a daylight home invasion foiled by the homeowner.

That is where the ambiguity happens. Woken from a sound sleep after a 12 hour shift at the mine, a home invasion versus a swat team raid would be difficult for the homeowner to tell apart in the heat of the moment.

We can't change the policy followed by home invaders, but we could change the policy of swat team raids so that it is easier for citizens to know the difference between the two.

[Worriedman]

What I can see on the video shown is a few seconds of sirens, after the strike team is in place, knowing what "8 seconds" is, that was not it, more like 2 or so. If that team was really expecting fire from inside, they were very lackadaisical about their approach, standing around, and the door breaker has his back to it right after the entry. I would never turn my back on what I considered an armed and dangerous situation, and I do not think real pros would either.

[Worriedman]

I don't get the tacticle decisions, if they had intel that this was a bad guy, why not wait for him to exit the house walking to his car to take him into custody? Why choose to let him have a position inside the house to fire from?

[DaveTN]

Are you freakin’ kidding me? Anytime you enter a home you are ready for a confrontation They entered and were engaged by a suspect armed with a semi-auto rifle. Several Officers shot the suspect before he could fire.

Turning their backs? Not professional? Short of calling him on the phone and seeing if it was a convenient time for him to step outside;what would you have done?

I’m sorry, but this guy was suspected of being part of a home invasion crew, and he engaged Officers in an armed encounter. He lost…. Sorry for his family he made the wrong decision, but I haven’t seen anything yet to led me to believe the cops did anything wrong.

DISCLAIMER: I’m biased; I’ve been on those entry teams. If you want to lead the thug life you had better know that when the cops are yelling “Police… Search Warrant!†picking up a rifle will cost you your life.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Turning their backs? Not professional? Short of calling him on the phone and seeing if it was a convenient time for him to step outside;what would you have done?

I’m sorry, but this guy was suspected of being part of a home invasion crew, and he engaged Officers in an armed encounter.

This is the same sheriff who suspected that Jared Loughner was following Sarah Palin's orders.

I'm ignorant, but as far as I can tell, given the situation the police were justified shooting. It is the situation that sucks. On the other hand, it has been reported that the safety was still engaged on the fella's rifle, and I haven't seen any refutation of that report.

Given the nature of the outcome, then taking another 5 minutes before kicking down the door may not have made the situation any worse. Calling the guy on the phone before busting down the door might have been a pretty good idea.

[Worriedman]

I don't think we have all the story yet is all. Video is chopped up, (would like to see it all uninterrupted myself). IF he was really a bad guy, that is one thing, being accused of being a bad guy is another. If it is proved that he was "living the thug life" then all this talk is moot, but that has not occurred yet.

Officials have said they may never release the warrant or the information used to produce it.

Edited May 28, 2011 by Worriedman

[Guest UberDuper]

Wants the alternative? You can object all you want, and most people that are the subject of a search do object, but they do it vocally not physically. If you cross the line to resisting or obstructing you will be arrested on those charges.

Revolution.

The point is that these courts have affirmed that our rights are, in fact, alienable, revocable, dismissible for the convenience of the government. And no matter how blatantly illegal the action is, the safety and convenience of the agent is more important than the rights of the people. Which amendments will be sacrificed at the altar of officer safety next?

At what point do we the people have the right to defend ourselves and our rights?

[DaveTN]

On the other hand, it has been reported that the safety was still engaged on the fella's rifle, and I haven't seen any refutation of that report.

It was the Police that released that information; they are the only ones that could have known that.

What are you suggesting?

You have an HCP don’t you? When a thug pulls a gun on you, will you wait to see if it fires?

My first thought was that this guy got firsthand experience of the adrenalin rush of a gunfight and he simply forgot to the flip the safety off. That may have saved a cops life.

[Worriedman]

It was the Police that released that information; they are the only ones that could have known that.

What are you suggesting?

You have an HCP don’t you? When a thug pulls a gun on you, will you wait to see if it fires?

My first thought was that this guy got firsthand experience of the adrenalin rush of a gunfight and he simply forgot to the flip the safety off. That may have saved a cops life.

I suspect that a Marine Veteran of two tours "over there" is familiar with how to operate a safety on what was a reasonable facsimile of his duty weapon. Is it possible he was waiting to fire to ascertain of it was in fact LE or something quite different. I know I would be hesitant to start a fire fight with my wife and son in the same small house.

The admitted wait for over an hour to attempt medical care is what is most troubling to me. You know they had people on hand if they were going to serve a "no knock warrant" in case one of their own was wounded. And if that is what they were doing, why run the sirens? Something just does not add up here.

I spent nearly a year and a half working out in AZ (around Metro Phoenix) starting in early 2008, it is a very dangerous place. I saw more people open carrying there by far than I ever do here in TN. Talking with the "Lizards" as the locals call themselves, they don't do much in the middle of the day outside, and they go armed when they leave their homes.

[Guest UberDuper]

From an outsiders perspective there seems to have been better options for how they could have handled that search warrant in Tucson that may have done a better job of ensuring the safety of the officers and the public.

That case doesn't have much to do with the topic tho.

[DaveTN]

I suspect that a Marine Veteran of two tours "over there" is familiar with how to operate a safety on what was a reasonable facsimile of his duty weapon. Is it possible he was waiting to fire to ascertain of it was in fact LE or something quite different. I know I would be hesitant to start a fire fight with my wife and son in the same small house.

He was trained enough to flip the safety but he was stupid enough to stand at the end of a hallway, in the open, pointing a rifle at cops?

But that’s all non-sense its mere speculation on both our parts. The fact remains that he pointed a gun at Police Officers that were in uniform and yelling they were the Police. I don’t care if he was the Pope, he made a fatal mistake and he paid for it with his life.

The admitted wait for over an hour to attempt medical care is what is most troubling to me. You know they had people on hand if they were going to serve a "no knock warrant" in case one of their own was wounded.

I thought I read they had a Doctor with them; He pronounced the guy dead. If you believe what you read the guy was hit with 60 rounds of .223. (I read that the coroner said 22.) I don’t believe for one second that a bunch of cops would have refused medical treatment if the guy was still alive. But it does make for a good story doesn't it?

A good friend of mine got jumped on a domestic violence call by a guy that was trying to take his gun. When they were fighting over the gun the perp pulled the trigger and shot an Auxiliary Officer. Another friend of mine was coming through the door as the perp got control of the gun and was going to shoot the first Officer. The second Officer shot the perp six times with a .357Mag; twice in the head. The perp was dead before he hit the floor. So what was the controversy? The fact that the investigators would not allow the body to be removed until several hours later because they were doing a crime scene investigation. They guy shot one cop and was in the process of trying to shoot another, and someone is worried because his body can’t be removed? Boo Frigin hoo.

And if that is what they were doing, why run the sirens? Something just does not add up here.

Once they are in position to go through the door; they want everyone to know it. Why would that not add up?

I spent nearly a year and a half working out in AZ (around Metro Phoenix) starting in early 2008, it is a very dangerous place. I saw more people open carrying there by far than I ever do here in TN. Talking with the "Lizards" as the locals call themselves, they don't do much in the middle of the day outside, and they go armed when they leave their homes.

Probably makes the cops a little more on edge also wouldn’t you think?

[Guest TackleberryTom]

If you want to lead the thug life you had better know that when the cops are yelling “Police… Search Warrant!” picking up a rifle will cost you your life.

What if the thugs are yelling that as they break down your door? Not picking up your rifle will cost you your life as well.

If you have no reason to expect the police to be knocking down your door, then you have the reason to believe they are not LE and the reason to be prepared to protect yourself.

If you DO have a reason to think the police will be coming, well, like a quote I have seen posted says "play stupid games, win stupid prizes"

[DaveTN]

What if the thugs are yelling that as they break down your door? Not picking up your rifle will cost you your life as well.

It’s what training and choices are all about. Life’s tough, get a helmet.

Run that scenario through your head and tell us how it ends.

[vontar]

Here is an article about a young veteran killed in a no-knock war on drugs raid. Shot 60 times, though he never fired a shot at the police.

This buck has stopped at the desk of Tucson Sheriff Clarence Dupnik, the same hero who blamed the Giffords shooting on Right Wing Hate Speech.

Tucson SWAT Team Defends Shooting Iraq Marine Veteran 60 Times - ABC News

I am glad you posted this, I was coming in to post, but I searched and found it.

I am on a short lunch,

I found out about it Friday,

Here is a long read about it some may not like the source but it is what it is,

allot of News is not covering it, I coud not even find it on CNN

Jose Guerena Killed: Arizona Cops Shoot Former Marine In Botched Pot Raid

Look what they didn't find. What they did find was legal stuff that anyone could buy.

[vontar]

BTW, I am not going to post it, but the video of the SWAT raid is online.

I found it by accident when I was looking for the news story. It played before I knew it,

It showed them drive up, go to the door, make entry and shots start., allot of shooting.

It did not show the inside of the home or body. But it showed how fast they started shooting.

[East_TN_Patriot]

I think SWAT raids are highly overused. They were originally intended for very unique circumstances, but have now become so common that they are used for just about any old search warrant where they think someone may have a gun. The "Special" part of "Special Weapons and Tactics" has become "Standard" and it's not a good thing or particularly necessary. At my first department, I was on the "high-risk warrant execution team" and that basically meant if there was a warrant to be served on a drug location, we strapped up and headed in. The worst firearm we ever got out of one of the places was a shotgun or a junk pistol. I'm not saying that these teams don't have their place, but they are waaaaay overused and there are very tragic mistakes associated with it.

[DaveTN]

I think SWAT raids are highly overused. They were originally intended for very unique circumstances, but have now become so common that they are used for just about any old search warrant where they think someone may have a gun. The "Special" part of "Special Weapons and Tactics" has become "Standard" and it's not a good thing or particularly necessary. At my first department, I was on the "high-risk warrant execution team" and that basically meant if there was a warrant to be served on a drug location, we strapped up and headed in. The worst firearm we ever got out of one of the places was a shotgun or a junk pistol. I'm not saying that these teams don't have their place, but they are waaaaay overused and there are very tragic mistakes associated with it.

I agree and I’m especially vocal about subdued uniforms and cops wearing masks. It amazes me that anyone that could make it to the rank of Chief of Police would allow it.

It’s going to take a massive civil action from a court somewhere to make an example out some Police Department to show just how freakin’reckless that is.

However…. Using SWAT in the Tucson incident didn’t seem to be over kill. Those Officers were engaged by a man armed with an AR/AK (Depending on who you read) rifle. A little slower on the trigger and they could have been burying a couple of cops.

I watched the video; there’s no way he didn’t know those were cops.

[Worriedman]

I think it is very plausible that he did NOT have time to know they were LE, if you or I were dead asleep after a 12 hour shift at work, and the wife wakes you up and says there are armed men outside the house, I suspect you grab your weapon first. He had time to try and put his wife and child in a safe place and THEN try to ascertain what the threat was, then the door come off the hinges, he is still in his house and they see the rifle and shoot, a lot.

In the video, you hear someone call for "Lights" then the siren starts just before they get to the door. The video is proof that the lights and siren were NOT running as they pulled up, nor the whole time they were in front of his house. If they were looking for evidence of criminal activity, they are not going to give that kind of prior warning, allowing an opportunity to flush said evidence or give him a chance to dodge out the back and run. There has been too much posting of information then retracting it here.

I have worked nights, and so have you. The curtains are drawn in the day light, and you are not at your rational best just being woken up. AZ is different than TN, it is rife with armed home invasions, folks that live there know that. His wife's family had lost members to home invasions by criminals, I would suspect they have a different view such a situation occurring than that of someone living here. They hit the siren after getting in position, (I have that same siren on my coyote caller as a locator) a few seconds later they bust the door down. No warrior in his right mind is going to try and fight 6-8 SWAT Officers, with his wife and child behind sheet rock a few feet away.

It has been nearly a month since the action took place, if they had intel that showed him to be a member of a "bad guy" gang, they would be looking to take the heat off by publishing it.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

I mostly agree with what WorriedMan said in post #120.

But this incident just seems a natural outcome of the war on drugs. Just like a "war on unhealthy habits" and "healthcare rationing" will be natural outcomes of "free govt healthcare".

You could second-guess the police actions or try to fine-tune the policy, but these things are just gonna happen fighting the war on drugs. Those guys kicking down the door just want to go home at the end of the day. They did what "seemed like a good idea at the time" to improve the odds of going home at the end of the shift. Can't blame those guys. The higher-ups maybe could have thunk up better procedures, but they have to implement policy too.

====

A flawed analogy-- You hire fellas with the job description-- "Without harming any hornets, poke a hornets nest with a 3 foot stick."

Well maybe it would be acceptable risk if you only poke hornets nests under the house eaves. But then you expand the mission so that employees also have to poke hornets nests out in the woods where the hornets pose no immediate threat. It is begging for grief. Aint gonna be easy to poke all those hornets nests without getting stung, and after awhile the requirement "Without harming any hornets" will cease to matter. Lots safer to pre-emptively wipe out the hornets from a safe distance. A flamethrower might work nicely.

====

Dunno much about anything, but Guerena's widow is a babe and would make a very sympathetic witness in a civil suit. Randy Weaver wasn't an especially sympathetic character at all compared to this lady. Unless the authorities have something more substantial than suspicion and innuendo, she may end up a millionaire widow compliments of the Pima County taxpayers.

If they had taken another five minutes before entering the premises, and ended up shooting Guerena anyway, then I don't expect they would be in so much risk of owing his widow a whole bunch of money.

But that is just a symptom of the actual problem.

[Guest adamoxtwo]

Interesting. What if you believe the person trying to detain you or gain entry is impersonating an officer? I guess I'd take my chances on the resisting charge rather than risk letting some waco in my house.

If you come to my house and you don't have a warrent and try to enter illegally I will treat you as a home intruder. I don't care what you are wearing or who you are. If the Pope tried to force his way into my house I will trully make him holy :-)