Reloads not quite right

[Jonnin]

I have a couple of ongoing issues that I could use a bit of expert direction with. Its mostly the same issue a few times over, I think.

First, my wife just got her new 9mm (eaa witness), and it will not chamber any of my reloads (which worked fine in the glock, beretta, and ruger). The slide simply will not close on them, 3 different types (LRN, JFN, FMJ). Its as if the gun cannot take the "fat" part of the bullet, only the narrow cone-nose part. My rounds are less than the max OAL for a 9mm, but are seated a touch on the shallow side as I was making weak loads for target practice. I can shove them in deeper, I guess, but is it normal for this to happen?

A similar thing happened with her 30-30. I got some 30 carbine bullets (same diameter, but lower mass) to make some weak loads, and those are also too fat, though the OAL of the cartridge is the same as factory ammo. The official 30-30 have a long cone nose and fit, of course.

The 223 is giving me a different issue. I trimmed the brass and all seems well, but my PLR cannot hit the primers (not seated deep, flat to the case) on a lot of my reloads. My mini-14 can shoot these same rounds (and any other, never fails). Here it seems the cartridge is too short but they are between min and max OAL for 223. The plr eats any factory ammo I throw at it, and some of my reloads, but this is getting old fast... and I cannot seem to find a cause for it. The primers are not even scratched, let alone dented, but shouldnt the back end of the case seat the same no matter what the front end is doing? Or is that not true for this type of gun?

Is it normal for certain guns to not accept certain ammo that is within the specs? If so, is it just trial and error to resolve these issues or is there a better approach? I can fix the first 2 easily (seat the 9mm deeper, use the heavy 30-30 bullets, etc) and am close to resolving the 223 problem but the "how do I not have these types of problems" question is beyond me, apart from costly (in time, mostly) trial and error approach..

Thanks for any thoughts!

[Guest Gopher6]

My thoughts fior what their worth. On the 9mm, use you're caliper to measure the O.D. of the case at the mouth and compare it to a factory round or your manual. If you flared the case to seat the bullet, ylou may not have set your seating die deep enough to take all the flare out. If that's the case, just run the rounds thru a taper crimp die to cure the "fatness"

The rifles offer a different problem as the .223 headspaces on the shoulder and the 30-30 headspaces on the rim of the base. In the .223, it seems you may be setting the shoulder back due to oversizing the case. The PLR may have a maximum chamber that allows the round to seat deep enough to be out of reach of the firing pin.

On the 30-30, again, if you flared the case to start the bullet, you probably didn't get the flare totallly ironed out because your seater die wasn't deep enough.

You seem overly concerned with OAL. I don't know your experence level, but making sure the case fits the chamber is vastly more important than OAL. It's real easy to resize a case, especially rifle, wrong by not having the die set properly. Read the die instructions again and think about getting some tools liike RCBS's Precision Mic to help you.

Hope this helps.

[LngRngShtr]

the 9 might be too flared to begin with then the taper crimping isn't reaching it all... just enough flare to start the projectile without shaving sides,..no need to set the projectile down into the case 1/8" less is better also set the taper crimp so the case mouth on a loaded round is is about 3 thou under resized diameter Also depending on the projectile seating them short will make them bulge further back causing a no close situation..

the .30-30 try running them through the resizing die a second time without a decapping rod also as you progress through the steps "drop check" the casing into the chamber ie: resize and deprime,..drop check,.. second resize without the decapping rod,..drop check find out where the hangup starts to occur.. I have in the past found the expander ball on the decapping rod making necks too large,..

.223 now heres the fun one,.. compare 2 fired casings 1 from your Mini and one from your PLR that will show you where your shoulders are setting you may have to reset dies and keep brass separate for those 2 I have that same situation for a couple of .30-06s I used to compete with more an accuracy thing than an operational issue

Hope this helps,

John

[ted]

what press are you useing

[Jonnin]

Thanks guys, that gives me a lot of stuff to look at. My experience is pretty low, I can make stuff that goes bang more or less but do not have the experience to find and fix the little things that crop up from time to time. The concern with OAL is just from trying to keep everything in spec in hopes that by doing that, it will work. When the stuff is in spec and does not work is what I need to learn more about. I suspect it may be the die settings, I followed the generic instructions and have not played with those much to adjust them. Or, to put it clearly, my experience is limited to making the suggested starter loads from the data books exactly as stated and some very minor changes such as adding a tiny bit more powder to get the 9mm to cycle (the starters would not). I have also made 9x18 from 9x19 brass and am starting to try different powders to see which I like better. I am, in short, a noob =)

Its a lee turret press, 4 stages. It may not be the best thing in the world but the problems here are not caused by the press, but the operator or the setup etc. What it makes is pretty consistent -- the problems I listed are consistently wrong and my good loads are consistently good.

I am pretty sure that if I can resolve the 223 for the pistol, the mini-14 will work too. That rifle just does not seem to care, it will shoot anything, if not I can make them to different specs. Both are capable of shooting the 5.56 for whatever that is worth, I know it changes where the rifling starts but not what else is different vs a "223 only" gun. I have the differences written down but have not made much use of it.

I will try some of these ideas this weekend if I can, or next week some.

[Guest Skully]

1 other thing you should be aware of is that different brass can vary greatly in thickness and the rate at which the thickness tapers towards the lip. You end up with a "bulge" where the base of the bullet is seated slightly deeper than normal when the brass is too thick. I've seen this most often in 45ACP, usually in certain foreign brass (CBC is the worst, i wont touch that stuff anymore in any caliber. IMI can do it too) I have seen the same thing happen in 9mm tho not too often. I have not seen this problem in any American made brass in any caliber, tho I dont rule it out.

Anyway, try seating your bullet shallower if this seems to be your problem.

ps: I have a lot of "experience" (unwanted) making Witnesses run right; shoot me a pm if I can ever be of help.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Hi Jonnin

Though you might consider them too expensive for range practice (not real expensive but more than bulk bullets)-- The Hornady XTP's might be good for the Witness? I've been loading 124 gr XTP HP just because I bought a bunch of XTP's when cheap bulk bullets were unobtanium a couple of years ago. XTP's make decent accurate ammo anyway.

The XTP's are cone shaped past the cylindrical part of the bullet base. Using the Hornady recommended OAL (which I have measured as the exact same OAL that Hornady uses on their factory ammo), the rounds are noticeably shorter than typical 9mm bullets. I've bought a couple of other brands of factory ammo that use the same XTP bullet, and the other manufacturers used a slightly long OAL than Hornady's recommended OAL. So the OAL appears not real critical except avoiding overpressure on a hot load.

They feed great in all my 9mm's, except the Taurus PT1911 9mm. I suspect the Taurus 1911 doesn't like em because they are a little shorter than the gun expects. In the PT1911 they hit the feed ramp then want to nose up and hang on the top-opening of the chamber, rather than the tip hitting the top-opening of the chamber and "bouncing in" straight. The Taurus is 100 percent on vanilla FMJ and its just a range gun anyway. I bet it would feed a long hollow point round fine.

Anyway, those XTP's, loaded to the Hornady OAL, only have a tiny bit of "cylinder" shape sitting above the brass, then it noses in to a truncated cone. If your bullets are hanging on the rifling past the chamber in the Witness, then maybe the XTP wouldn't do that.

[Caster]

Lee factory crimp die will solve 99.9% of your 9mm issues.

[Dolomite_supafly]

The ogives on the bullet are different than factory in both the 9mm and the 30-30. I would seat the bullets a bit deeper on both.

I load 9mm and I have to seat the bullets deeper because of the ogive profile of the bullet. If I don't then the bullet will not seat all the way becuase the bullet will hit the rifling before lock up.

The same is probably happeneing with the 30-30 as well. The carbine bullets have more of a curve to them than a standard 30-30 bullet so when you seat them to normal length there is more bullet ogive forward of the case mouth. Seat them until they will work. Even at the deeper depth there probably still isn't as much bullet taking up case capacity as a factory bullet.

As far as the 223 goes the shoulders are being bumped back too much. It sounds like the die is the problem more so than anything else. I would contact the die maker and tell them. There should be no way for you to size a case too much because the die bottoms out on the shell holder.

Did you buy the 223 dies new? The reason I ask is there are people out there who will machine the bottom of the die or the top of the shellholder to be able to size the case more than factory. They believe it lets them fine tune the sizing process. Which I guess it does but if they sell it to someone else and don't tell them it can cause all kinds of problems like you are talking about. If the 223 dies are new the factory should replace them because it is the dies and not you.

Dolomite

[Jonnin]

I think we have determined its the gun for the 9mm issue. I can make it work with some 380 slugs I have, which have a short, thin nose that does not bite into the rifleing during feed and do quite well. It looks like they started the rifleing on my barrel just a wee bit earlier than max OAL of 9mm allows, I have even found a couple of brands of factory ammo that it will not eat and am looking into getting that fixed.

I do have, and use, a 9mm crimp die, its not related to this issue though. THe crimp die is very useful for the 380 load.

I may try those xtps; that is exactly the problem and any bullet that is truncated works (most factory ammo is working). Add to the issue, the cast rounds are slightly fatter than jacketed anyway, apparently this is required for a good fit but makes the issue at hand worse.

Seating shallower isnt in the cards, not only does that put more of the fat nose into the rifleing bite (the source of the trouble), I already had them somewhat shallow. I went the other way, to try to seat one deep enough that only the narrow nose of the round would show to slip past the problem, but those were way, way too deep, ended up putting 3/4 the mass of the slug deep in the brass before it would seat properly, which was a no-go.

The 30-30 is fine with the correct bullets, I just did not understand how the different rilfleing of different guns worked... seeing a lot of folks swap one slug for another if the diameter is very very close, and wanting a light load, I made a dumb mistake and learned a bit for my troubles =) I can now see why all 30-30 slugs have a fat backside and narrow nose...

[Jonnin]

As far as the 223 goes the shoulders are being bumped back too much. It sounds like the die is the problem more so than anything else. I would contact the die maker and tell them. There should be no way for you to size a case too much because the die bottoms out on the shell holder.

Did you buy the 223 dies new? The reason I ask is there are people out there who will machine the bottom of the die or the top of the shellholder to be able to size the case more than factory. They believe it lets them fine tune the sizing process. Which I guess it does but if they sell it to someone else and don't tell them it can cause all kinds of problems like you are talking about. If the 223 dies are new the factory should replace them because it is the dies and not you.

Dolomite

They are new 223 dies. But there were 2 types being sold, and I think mine size the whole case? I could have the wrong type? The expert there (and hes been really good so far) asked what gun it was for and at the time we said the mini-14 ... maybe I need 2 sets of dies? Until you said that I even forgot about the 2 die sets..!

The 223 is really the big deal now. The 30-30 is fine with 30-30 slugs, and the witness problem is understood. THe 223 may be the shoulders, I havent had a chance to get back to it.

Edited May 26, 2011 by Jonnin

[leroy]

Jonnin:_________________

This:

....THe 223 may be the shoulders, I havent had a chance to get back to it. ...

If ya dont have one; go ahead and buy a case gage (...link here: L.E. Wilson Case Length Headspace Gage 223 Remington - MidwayUSA ...) and use it to adjust your sizing die.

By the way, this is the voice of experience. It will save brass and make sure the rounds will chamber.

Hope this helps.

leroy