Permit revoked

[JayC]

The scenario was the one you painted. In a court of law or, any time in the future when they look at the paperwork, they will not care to sit down with you as you explain why the charges aren't as bad as they seem. Legally you will not be able to buy a firearm in the future in any case and that will not change. That's just the way it is. There are consequences for YOUR actions and when you got your HCP that should have been covered and listened to. There are cases where HCP holders are unfairly charged or have the law applied incorrectly. This is not one of those.

If you want more legally advice in this arena you need to consult Leonard Embody.

I just curious why you think he won't be able to purchase a firearm?

[Guest rurik]

I was given to understand that my permit was to be suspended. I even had the letter from the state explaining why. I joined into the plea agreement under that understanding. When the final papers were drawn up, the comments section had a hand written note that in addition to all the other monetary and time served penalties, I would forfeit the right to a HCP for life. It was implied that if I refused to sign the entire deal was off. This was after I had spent several thousands of dollars and numerous weekends to settle all pre-trial obligation in the agreement. My lawyer advised me to take the deal, and since by this time I was broke, and in danger of losing my job if the case continued, I had no choice.

[CQB Elite]

I was given to understand that my permit was to be suspended. I even had the letter from the state explaining why. I joined into the plea agreement under that understanding. When the final papers were drawn up, the comments section had a hand written note that in addition to all the other monetary and time served penalties, I would forfeit the right to a HCP for life. It was implied that if I refused to sign the entire deal was off. This was after I had spent several thousands of dollars and numerous weekends to settle all pre-trial obligation in the agreement. My lawyer advised me to take the deal, and since by this time I was broke, and in danger of losing my job if the case continued, I had no choice.

Ah, it wasn't revoked. YOU agreed to forfeit it for life as part of your plea. Put your big boy pants on and live with it. YOU gave it up.

I'm sure that you can renew when it comes time but if you do that you will be in violation of the plea agreement and they will put your butt in jail.

Edited April 28, 2011 by Dredd371

[DaveTN]

I was given to understand that my permit was to be suspended. I even had the letter from the state explaining why. I joined into the plea agreement under that understanding. When the final papers were drawn up, the comments section had a hand written note that in addition to all the other monetary and time served penalties, I would forfeit the right to a HCP for life. It was implied that if I refused to sign the entire deal was off. This was after I had spent several thousands of dollars and numerous weekends to settle all pre-trial obligation in the agreement. My lawyer advised me to take the deal, and since by this time I was broke, and in danger of losing my job if the case continued, I had no choice.

Then you are hosed.

And I don’t mean that to be mean to you, obviously you have learned from your lesson and feel bad enough already.

Judges are not bound by “Plea Agreementsâ€. I’m a former cop and every time I have been in criminal court in Illinois the Judges explained to anyone that was pleading guilty that they were not bound in sentencing by anything you agreed to with the States Attorney (DA). Now generally they went by those agreements, but they didn’t have to. I assume it’s the same way in Tennessee, but one of the cops, criminals, or lawyers would need to address that.

Its sounds as if your attorney made it clear to you what you were agreeing to, and implied you would be tried on a felony if you refused the deal; which may well have been the case. I doubt there is much you can do now, but as I said before your attorney is the only one that can answer that.

Applying for your HCP and having it turned down would not be the worst that could happen. Having it approved and later revoked and then being stopped while carrying would be worse.

I don’t see anything that will keep you from buying a firearm in the future.

It sounds like the story of why you were arrested for assaulting someone while you were carrying a gun (aggravated assault) could be an interesting one that some people may learn something from; if you decide to tell it.

[Smith]

I just curious why you think he won't be able to purchase a firearm?

Because of an assault on his record. The only way I could see that getting through TICS is with an expungement and even then he will still probably have to appeal denials. From his previous statements, I can't see anyway he has enough money to push an expungement or further legal maneuvers all the way through to the federal level.

I'm sorry if I has hard on the OP, but the lesson needs to be learned that there are SERIOUS consequences to how one acts. The government and the law has very little mercy for "heat of the moment" actions. There are a lot of people who have reacted in the heat of the moment that never intended to kill or harm someone else yet it happens. Gun owners are held to a higher standard since they carry a larger responsibility. We know the rules. We have agreed to play by them. Whether they are Constitutional or not is irrelevant. Until the laws are changed that is the agreement we have chosen to live by.

[DaveTN]

Because of an assault on his record. The only way I could see that getting through TICS is with an expungement and even then he will still probably have to appeal denials. From his previous statements, I can't see anyway he has enough money to push an expungement or further legal maneuvers all the way through to the federal level.

I'm sorry if I has hard on the OP, but the lesson needs to be learned that there are SERIOUS consequences to how one acts. The government and the law has very little mercy for "heat of the moment" actions. There are a lot of people who have reacted in the heat of the moment that never intended to kill or harm someone else yet it happens. Gun owners are held to a higher standard since they carry a larger responsibility. We know the rules. We have agreed to play by them. Whether they are Constitutional or not is irrelevant. Until the laws are changed that is the agreement we have chosen to live by.

He pled guilty to a reduced misdemeanor assault. I don't see why that would keep him from purchasing. It's not like there is a story attached to it.

But you could be right.

[Curiousgb]

Because of an assault on his record. The only way I could see that getting through TICS is with an expungement and even then he will still probably have to appeal denials. From his previous statements, I can't see anyway he has enough money to push an expungement or further legal maneuvers all the way through to the federal level.

I'm sorry if I has hard on the OP, but the lesson needs to be learned that there are SERIOUS consequences to how one acts. The government and the law has very little mercy for "heat of the moment" actions. There are a lot of people who have reacted in the heat of the moment that never intended to kill or harm someone else yet it happens. Gun owners are held to a higher standard since they carry a larger responsibility. We know the rules. We have agreed to play by them. Whether they are Constitutional or not is irrelevant. Until the laws are changed that is the agreement we have chosen to live by.

Agreed. There are certain things I feel strongly about that should never be mixed, both involve alcohol, Guns and Cars. Nothing good ever comes from the mixing of these.

[Smith]

He pled guilty to a reduced misdemeanor assault. I don't see why that would keep him from purchasing. It's not like there is a story attached to it.

But you could be right.

I don't know exactly what flags TICS, but almost all the denials we get usually involve misdemeanor assaults. At least according to what people tell us. They could be misrepresenting the charges, but it makes sense that any kind of assault, even on the juvenile record would be a denial. Could you imagine being the TBI official who has to explain in court why he approved a gun sale to a person with an assault on their record who was later involved in a larger crime?

[Guest rurik]

I appreciate all the comment, and thank you even if its not what I wanted to hear. They way I read the law, it would be several years before I could even reapply for a HCP anyway. Luckily my wife has her permit, and she doesn't mind carrying two in her bag!

[DaveTN]

I don't know exactly what flags TICS, but almost all the denials we get usually involve misdemeanor assaults. At least according to what people tell us. They could be misrepresenting the charges, but it makes sense that any kind of assault, even on the juvenile record would be a denial. Could you imagine being the TBI official who has to explain in court why he approved a gun sale to a person with an assault on their record who was later involved in a larger crime?

Then that means that simple assault is grounds for denial. I didn’t think it was. I thought the only misdemeanor that was grounds for denial was domestic violence.

[Guest tngw1500se]

Sounds like you screwed up & signed a agreement so you're stuck with it. If you do reapply, you could be in deep doo doo! How about taking Karate classes and forgetting the firearms for good? I'd say you're "SOL". Read everything from now on!!!!

[Mike.357]

if you are serious about getting your permit back at some point you are going to need to pony up a serious amount of cash.

[Guest tommy62]

Drinking alcohol while in possession of a firearm? DUI? I'm not trying to be a smarta**, but we all know the ramifications of irresponsible behavior and breaking the law. I had to wait several years to get mine due to stupid behavior when I was younger. This taught me to respect having a HCP. I do not put myself into a position to lose it. I went to my neighbors tonight to have a beer (or two) and I left my gun at home. Would I have been caught? Probably not, but I knew I would be consuming alcohol so I decided to leave it at home. Alcohol and guns do not mix. Sometimes we have to exercise responsible judgment. I have seen most folks looking at this and trying to come up wit ways to tell the OP how to get the HCP back, but I see it differently. If this offends anyone, I'm sorry. The law is the law and if we put ourselves in a negative position then we need to put on our Big Boy britches and accept th consequences.JMHO

Edited April 29, 2011 by tommy62

[Guest TargetShooter84]

I appreciate all the comment, and thank you even if its not what I wanted to hear. They way I read the law, it would be several years before I could even reapply for a HCP anyway. Luckily my wife has her permit, and she doesn't mind carrying two in her bag!

Its a felony if you use a firearm if you are prohibited from owning or purchasing one.

[JayC]

Why on earth would a misdemeanor assault charge prevent him from passing a background check to purchase a firearm? I don't seem to remember that as one of the items which can disqualify a purchase.

I agree he's hosed on the HCP in TN... Although I'd be curious if it would prevent him from getting one in another state.

Because of an assault on his record. The only way I could see that getting through TICS is with an expungement and even then he will still probably have to appeal denials. From his previous statements, I can't see anyway he has enough money to push an expungement or further legal maneuvers all the way through to the federal level.

I'm sorry if I has hard on the OP, but the lesson needs to be learned that there are SERIOUS consequences to how one acts. The government and the law has very little mercy for "heat of the moment" actions. There are a lot of people who have reacted in the heat of the moment that never intended to kill or harm someone else yet it happens. Gun owners are held to a higher standard since they carry a larger responsibility. We know the rules. We have agreed to play by them. Whether they are Constitutional or not is irrelevant. Until the laws are changed that is the agreement we have chosen to live by.

[JayC]

I don't know exactly what flags TICS, but almost all the denials we get usually involve misdemeanor assaults. At least according to what people tell us. They could be misrepresenting the charges, but it makes sense that any kind of assault, even on the juvenile record would be a denial. Could you imagine being the TBI official who has to explain in court why he approved a gun sale to a person with an assault on their record who was later involved in a larger crime?

Maybe because the law doesn't allow them to deny a firearm purchase for a misdemeanor charge other than a domestic violence conviction?

Thats why we have a law that spells out who can't purchase a firearm, so it's not up to a TDOS/TBI employee to make a subjective call on what types of convictions result in a denial.

My guess, they're misrepresenting the charges, or the arrest is on file but not the final judgement. It seems TICS likes to deny anybody with an outstanding legal issue (according to the computer) even if said legal issue would not prevent them from purchasing a firearm. A lot of older dismissed charges and minor misdemeanor convictions never made it into the computer system for one reason or another. My understanding is that this results in a large number of false positives in the TICS system.

Yet another reason to get rid of the unconstitutional TICS!

[JayC]

Its a felony if you use a firearm if you are prohibited from owning or purchasing one.

Based on the facts as stated by the OP, he's not prohibited from owning or purchasing a firearm, and from my understanding of TN law, couldn't be charged if he used a firearm in a justified self defense shooting.

[Oh Shoot]

Based on the facts as stated by the OP, he's not prohibited from owning or purchasing a firearm, and from my understanding of TN law, couldn't be charged if he used a firearm in a justified self defense shooting.

Also, and I don't know the validity of this plea deal thing, but ordinarily, one would only lose their HCP for a Class A misdemeanor for the length of the sentence, including probation. I guess that's what the assault was pled down to, and that's what a first DUI is.

I'm like several others of you though, somewhat dubious that a "lifetime ban of HCP" done through the courts can really stick. Of course TNDOS could later just use the ole "poses a material risk" clause and nuke it like they did with Kwik. Sounds like it only takes a letter from a PD or court to convince them to do it.

- OS

[Guest tommy62]

Based on the facts as stated by the OP, he's not prohibited from owning or purchasing a firearm, and from my understanding of TN law, couldn't be charged if he used a firearm in a justified self defense shooting.

I would not want to be in the above mentioned scenario and have my previous assault charges brought into a new court case. I could just an ambitious ADA saying, "the defendant has displayed a history of violent behavior involving firearms."

[vontar]

If you want more legally advice in this arena you need to consult Leonard Embody.

For the love of all that is Holy and the 2nd amendment, don't direct him to that person.

I also think it is odd that they some how tacked on a lifetime ban on a HCP in hand writing, as OP stated. Sounds like they didn't even brother to type that part up.

Since you are not aware of the circumstances, and seem to want to create your own scenario, I will disregard your comments. The charges were dropped down because they were not valid. The handgun was visible, not being brandished. I admit to the charge of DUI, but not to the extent you seem to imagine. Because of the letter I received from the state after being charged, I understood that my permit would be SUSPENDED, and had no problem with that being part of my obligation. The ADA took it upon himself to add the LIFETIME revocation. Even the county clerk's office supplied me with a receipt showing I had paid all fines and costs, in order to show the State for reinstatement. My lawyer didn't understand that fact either, but it was hand written on the court papers, not an official part of the plea.

Sounds like maybe you need a lawyer that is well versed in TN firearms law.

I wonder who hand wrote it into the plea.

I am not a lawyer but sounds like you could probably reply but then you would be violating your plea deal which is what would put you back in a pot of boiling water.

[CQB Elite]

I think some posters are stuck on the term "lifetime ban" or "revocation". Neither of these happened. As part of his plea agreement he AGREED to SURRENDER his permit. He gave it up, they did not take it from him. This was done to avoid felony charges.

As a LEO I have seen people agree to give up a variety of things in plea deals. You would be surprised at the things people give up.

BTW, his voluntary surrender of the permit is part of the deal. If he renews or keeps his HCP the prosecutor can move to void the plea and pursue the original charges.

[Oh Shoot]

I think some posters are stuck on the term "lifetime ban" or "revocation". Neither of these happened. As part of his plea agreement he AGREED to SURRENDER his permit. He gave it up, they did not take it from him. This was done to avoid felony charges.

As a LEO I have seen people agree to give up a variety of things in plea deals. You would be surprised at the things people give up.

BTW, his voluntary surrender of the permit is part of the deal. If he renews or keeps his HCP the prosecutor can move to void the plea and pursue the original charges.

We hear ya, and I suppose it could well be binding. On the other hand, the OP says he didn't understand that condition of the plea to be as it played out. And sure, it may well be that he couldn't get the same deal without that condition, but then again, maybe he could with a little better mouthpiece, dunno.

Still seems there is the question as to the nature of that in the sense that there is specific statutory language regarding the conditions under which a permit may be suspended or revoked, and there's no mention of "voluntary lifetime revocation". I mean, sure, you can simply not renew a permit, just like you don't have to renew your driver's license, but neither bans you from EVER having it restated. Can you actually voluntarily nuke your own driver's license forever in a court, too?

- OS

[Guest 270win]

Being convicted of a misdemeanor should not prohibit someone from buying/possessing a firearm. It may keep someone from getting a handgun carry permit, as far as the misdemeanor assault, but not owning a firearm.

I'd honestly leave TN if you can't get a handgun carry permit in say a few years over a misdemeanor. That is total garbage that you be kept from getting one that a judge and prosecutor pull that on you. I'd lawyer up if you decide to get one in a few years and know your options as far as in TN and elsewhere.

A lot of prosecutors just try to out spend people and know it. If you were convicted of misdemeanor assault it is what it is. You should be able to eventually get a handgun carry permit again. That isn't a felony.

[CQB Elite]

Still seems there is the question as to the nature of that in the sense that there is specific statutory language regarding the conditions under which a permit may be suspended or revoked, and there's no mention of "voluntary lifetime revocation". I mean, sure, you can simply not renew a permit, just like you don't have to renew your driver's license, but neither bans you from EVER having it restated. Can you actually voluntarily nuke your own driver's license forever in a court, too?

- OS

I've seen several plea deals done with stipulations that may seem odd. One guy agreed to never own or use a computer with internet access and another agreed to never own a dog. In both those cases (just like in this one) the defendants were in "save my a** mode" and would agree to just about anything. While there may be nothing in statute about a voluntary lifetime revocation, OP entered into a gentlemen's agreement with the ADA. Quid pro quo-I'll do this if you do that.As far as the state is concerned OP probably has a valid permit and can renew it when the time comes. As far as the ADA is concerned he better not.

The ADA worked out the deal with his attorney and by his own statement his attorney told him to take the deal. He took it to save his butt.

Edited April 29, 2011 by Dredd371

[BlackHawk93]

Not at all looking for sympathy, and there is nothing you guys could say that would make me feel any worse than I already do. I readily admit to making mistakes in this matter, and have paid dearly, both in money and shame. I hoped for, and have mostly been given, advice as to what course of action is available to me in the future. My biggest question I guess is can a local ADA add conditions that are not in TCA. There is no felony conviction, and with the exception of domestic assault, stalking and 2nd offense DUI misdemeanors I understand that a plead down charge does not count against you. My convictions were simple assault and 1st offense DUI.

Keyword here is "Domestic Assault and Stalking". Also there is the "Domestic Violence" wording there. this is where being in a relationship and if either partner wants to "do one or the other in" all they really have to do is go for the jugular and accuse you of domestic violence. It's a killer for a HCP. And if the partner knows this and wants to get back at you, it's a good way to ruin your ability to carry. If you were facing charges of either those are disqualifiers for a HCP which may have caused the DA or Assistant DA to write that in. Whether or not he wrote it in would not have mattered. If you have been charged with either you will not qualify for a HCP. Doesn't have anything to do with the DuI. Yes, you would have lost your HCP for the duration if that was your only charge, but you would have been eligible after your time and probation was served.