Shooting Involving Off-Duty LEO in Philly

[Guest GradStudent]

Man shot by off-duty officer is in an induced coma | Philadelphia Inquirer | 04/27/2011

[gnmwilliams]

No bashing. Wasn't there myself. Don't know the whole story. But not how I would have handled the situation.

[Ebow1]

Justified or not, he's going to get in trouble for not rendering aid/calling paramedics himself, and for not warning before the shot. The fact that he didn't call paramedics leads me to believe it wasn't justified, but there just aren't enough facts out right now to start jumping to conclusions.

[Guest rebeldrummer]

Keep us posted if any details emerge....

[johnnychimpo]

,but there just aren't enough facts out right now to start jumping to conclusions.

Too late. You've already done that.

[Guest monkeyhumper]

Justified or not, he's going to get in trouble for not rendering aid/calling paramedics himself, and for not warning before the shot. The fact that he didn't call paramedics leads me to believe it wasn't justified, but there just aren't enough facts out right now to start jumping to conclusions.

The article says that the officer did identify himself, and that the subject aimed his weapon at the officer. Why he ran across the street is yet to be determined. Maybe he had first aid equipment across the street?

If someone identifies themselves as an LEO, maybe it's not the wisest move to run into your house.

[Guest BenderBendingRodriguez]

The article says that the officer did identify himself, and that the subject aimed his weapon at the officer. Why he ran across the street is yet to be determined. Maybe he had first aid equipment across the street?

If someone identifies themselves as an LEO, maybe it's not the wisest move to run into your house.

Well, it seems that the officer claims that he identified himself and that the victim aimed a weapon at him. There hasn't been any corroboration of those statements so far, and the victim's wife is claiming to not have heard any discussion or yelling outside.

[bajabuc]

lessee now...the off duty cop entered the home....hmmm

the off duty cop looked at the home resident...and shot the other guy.

No knock...so far.

The home resident claimed the off duty cop didn't say anything.

The incident is under investigation by internal affairs...

Just how far can off duty leo's go ...off duty.

I know one thing for sure...the off duty cop ( I assume in civies) who invades my home had better have his badge out! There have been too many home invasions by people claiming to be cops and weren't!

Edited April 27, 2011 by bajabuc

[CQB Elite]

Justified or not, he's going to get in trouble for not rendering aid/calling paramedics himself, and for not warning before the shot. The fact that he didn't call paramedics leads me to believe it wasn't justified, but there just aren't enough facts out right now to start jumping to conclusions.

What would you consider to be a good pre-shot warning? Would "DROP THE GUN" do? What about "Excuse me Mr Armed Citizen, Could you pretty please not point that dangerous firearm at me and while we are on the subject would you be so kind as to put the firearm on the ground"?

[Guest bkelm18]

[vontar]

I am just going to post that I read it. I better stop right here.

[Guest monkeyhumper]

What would you consider to be a good pre-shot warning? Would "DROP THE GUN" do? What about "Excuse me Mr Armed Citizen, Could you pretty please not point that dangerous firearm at me and while we are on the subject would you be so kind as to put the firearm on the ground"?

"Do be a jolly good chap and do your best to not run inside, sir. Oh, dinkle fingers, he's run inside. Now I'll have to blow my funny little whistle and wait for other bobbies to arrive. Hope he's no threat. I'll cross my fingers, anyway."

[Guest UberDuper]

IMHO it should be criminal for an off duty police officer to approach anyone gun drawn for any reason. Take cover, call for on duty police officers, identify yourself as a police officer. Beyond that, you're a regular Joe and should treat the situation as such.

If that were a concerned citizen that walked into that house and shot that dude, they'd be cell bound.

[CQB Elite]

"Do be a jolly good chap and do your best to not run inside, sir. Oh, dinkle fingers, he's run inside. Now I'll have to blow my funny little whistle and wait for other bobbies to arrive. Hope he's no threat. I'll cross my fingers, anyway."

I like your version more than mine!

[CQB Elite]

IMHO it should be criminal for an off duty police officer to approach anyone gun drawn for any reason. Take cover, call for on duty police officers, identify yourself as a police officer. Beyond that, you're a regular Joe and should treat the situation as such.

If that were a concerned citizen that walked into that house and shot that dude, they'd be cell bound.

Problem is- most LEO are not "regular joes". Most agencies have policies that require them to be "on duty" 24/7 and ready to act if the need arises. That was the case with both the SO and state agency I worked for. My Sheriff, thru policy, required us to be armed and carry credentials at all times while in the public.

Now, having said that it probably wasn't a good idea to take this guy on like that but events unfold rather quickly.

[LagerHead]

lessee now...the off duty cop entered the home....hmmm

the off duty cop looked at the home resident...and shot the other guy.

No knock...so far.

The home resident claimed the off duty cop didn't say anything.

The incident is under investigation by internal affairs...

Just how far can off duty leo's go ...off duty.

I know one thing for sure...the off duty cop ( I assume in civies) who invades my home had better have his badge out! There have been too many home invasions by people claiming to be cops and weren't!

I'm not even close to taking sides on this one. But I will say that whichever story is true it seems obvious that the copy identified himself and the man ran inside. I doubt that you would take similar action if you were outside and a cop ordered you to drop your gun.

[Guest UberDuper]

Problem is- most LEO are not "regular joes". Most agencies have policies that require them to be "on duty" 24/7 and ready to act if the need arises. That was the case with both the SO and state agency I worked for. My Sheriff, thru policy, required us to be armed and carry credentials at all times while in the public.

Yes, that is the problem. They cannot expect people to respond to some dude in a tshirt with a weapon pointed at them claiming to be a cop the same way they'd respond to someone in a uniform. Yet they do. And when a cop injects himself into a situation like this, the victim responds exactly how one would expect: fear and panic. And for good reason.. You might just get followed into your own home and shot to ensure THEIR safety.

Jackboot bedwetters.

Police don't trust anyone not in their uniform, why should we be expected to?

[Guest UberDuper]

doubletap

[Ebow1]

I've already jumped to conclusions-How? Noticed how I said LEADS ME TO BELIEVE, as opposed to immediately claiming who was justified in what and who wasnt.

Article says the officer ID'ed himself and the victim pointed his weapon at the officer. The article also cites witness statements that contradict that.

A good pre-shot warning. I never said I felt it necessary for a pre shot warning, I said JUSTIFIED OR NOT HE IS GOING TO GET IN TROUBLE. The fact is that the expectations of police officers in this country to justify the use of deadly force are borderline absurd. Whether I agree with it or not I can safely say right now, that this man is going to get into some kind of trouble, because plain and simple, SOMEBODY is going to sue. Even if the victim had fired at the officer there would be a family member out there somewhere sobbing to the media about how their little whoever didn't deserve to die, and how the police didn't need to shoot 'im. Gods I'm starting to see why LEO shooting threads get locked so quickly.

[Guest monkeyhumper]

I don't mind jumping to conclusions.

That dude was an idiot for running into his house. If reports change, so will my opinion.

Sent from my Etch a Sketch

[Grunt67]

MY best guess is there is likely more to the story than reported in this article. I'll

wait until the full story come to light.

I will say this much, if the off duty cop ID'ed himself as the article says, why did

the guy run into his house. Something stinks here. JMHO

[LagerHead]

MY best guess is there is likely more to the story than reported in this article. I'll

wait until the full story come to light.

I will say this much, if the off duty cop ID'ed himself as the article says, why did

the guy run into his house. Something stinks here. JMHO

I've never read an article where there wasn't more to the story. Either way it's going to be a bad situation for a lot of people.

[Dolomite_supafly]

There definitely more to it than what is reported.

We are assuming the cop is telling the truth. Witness accounts debunk his story about him identifying himself. I honestly don't believe he did. What I do believe is the officer's actions scared the guy to a point he was trying to retreat to his house.

Think about this,

When you are in a life threatening situation one of the senses you loose is hearing. The guy sees an unidentified male (officer) coming at him with a gun. Adrenaline kicks in and shuts the guys sense of hearing down. At that point the officer may or may not be identifying himself but the guy doesn't hear it because adrenaline shut his sense of hearing down. All the guy knows is there is some unidentified male coming after him with a gun so he tries to retreat to his house, his safe area. At some point the guy may point his gun at the unidentified male to disuade him from following, even that I am not buying. At that point the officer feels threatened and fires. The officer is justified in shooting but again the guy is also justified in pointing.

It will all boil down to whether the officer identified himself. If he did and it can be proven he is in the right. If he didn't then the guy did nothing wrong other than trying to protect himself from an unidentified male with a gun. We are used to a relatively low crime rate down here but in some of the bigger cities it is a crime wave and people are worried about getting robbed or killed.

I can understand trying to get inside if someone you don't know or recognize is coming at you, especially if the officer had already drawn his gun and was approaching. If an off duty officer, who hasn't identified himself and I don't know, points a gun at me there will be a fight but unfortunately I will lose whether I was justified or not.

As far as the officer leaving the scene it could have been so he could get his radio, hard to say. Seems to me he should have maintained control of the crime scene and never left. Having the girlfriend follow him tells a lot of his training as well. Having the neighbor take the guy to the hospital also says a lot about the officer. First and formost is the officer's safety then after that first aid for anyone who may need it.

Just my thoughts on this

Dolomite

[vontar]

I can see it going the way Dolomite's theory plays out. I kinda had that in mind as well, just not as detailed.

However, as it has been stated, how many people are really going to believe in this day and age a person dressed in plain cloth shouting and pointing a gun they are a LEO. Take in to account what he was probably wearing since he was helping someone move into a house a cross the road, he probably was not wearing his Sunday best. He probably was wearing older clothes, probably something I would wear when I help a friend.

The guy probably may have thought he was being robbed and may have just been retreating in to his house.

However, one thing that does back up the LEO is the the shots hit Taylor in the Chest, so Taylor must have been facing him during the shots.

There are so many maybes in this and since I wasn't there I could play the maybe game till the cow's come home so I am going to let it rest for now. Perhaps Taylor will recover and be able to tell his side.

I do expect a lawsuit either way.

[Tnscooter63]

I have thought many times on what I would do if an unknown was in the house yelling FBI or police either one, because there have been more than a few cases around here where they do this when entering to rob the place and I still dont know what I would do other than maybe be yelling "you better show your badge" while aiming, But I do know I would not have an unloaded gun and if the person shot didnt this could have ended alot different. I for one dont believe ANYTHING the media publishes these days until verified, but I can learn from it to hopefully survive a similar situation should it happen. I feel for LEO's these days because they are placed between a rock and a hard place with all the thugs and those of us wanting to defend our selves from the thugs.