38 Super for EDC

[Guest 85rx-7gsl-se]

Besides the drawback of ammunition costs, what is everyone's thoughts on carrying a gun chambered in this for EDC?

[Erik88]

I like to be able to practice A LOT with my edc gun so ammo price alone would do it for me. Not to mention ammo scarcity. I have never seen 38 super at stores in Knoxville. Maybe that's because I'm not looking for it specifically, but it sure isn't common.

[Lumber_Jack]

Great, I don't see any drawbacks if you can get the ammo. Reload your own, and I would say go for it. Ballistically speaking you're good to go, check this out Cartridge Comparisons

[Guest 85rx-7gsl-se]

It can be found here but the price is usually like $25 a box. My concern is moreso whether over-penetration is a large risk considering the high velocity of the round.

[Erik88]

over-penetration can happen with any caliber. A coworker of mine recently left his Glock 30 sitting on his table while he was on the computer. His g/f decided to pick it up and pull the trigger. The round went through (at an upward angle) the bedroom door, through the ceiling, through the floor above, and they found it laying on his roommates bed. It was a JHP .45 that didn't expand through any of that.

[Lumber_Jack]

It can be found here but the price is usually like $25 a box. My concern is moreso whether over-penetration is a large risk considering the high velocity of the round.

Over-penetration is always a concern, but velocity is less than .357sig and .357 magnum, both of which are carried regularly. I wouldn't be overly concerned with that. "38 super propels a 130 grain bullet 25 FPS faster than 9mm 115 grain"

[Erik88]

Over-penetration is always a concern, but velocity is less than .357sig "

yep, and I've always been puzzled as to why the Air Marshalls carry .357 Sig. One would think that over-penetration on an airplane would be disastrous.

[Guest bkelm18]

yep, and I've always been puzzled as to why the Air Marshalls carry .357 Sig. One would think that over-penetration on an airplane would be disastrous.

Despite the common belief, a hole in a window or fuselage doesn't cause explosive decompression like you see in the movies.

[JayC]

Despite the common belief, a hole in a window or fuselage doesn't cause explosive decompression like you see in the movies.

I'd be much more worried about hitting innocents beyond the target or critical airplane parts/electronics than decompression.

[peejman]

If you can hit your intended target and afford the ammo, use it.

[Jonnin]

I'd be much more worried about hitting innocents beyond the target or critical airplane parts/electronics than decompression.

People are the concern; aircraft have triple redundancy on electronics and critical things and a few bullets would be unlikely to drop a plane.

As far as the gun goes, there are not many platforms for it, not a lot of ammo choices, and its a glorified 9mm just like the .40. The only reason to carry this would be because you found a gun that you absolutely love in the caliber --- I would have to recommend against going out seeking it, but if the gun finds you....

[Guest 85rx-7gsl-se]

Well I have been looking at an astra a-80 that I kinda like but it is 38 super. I also 38 super was a popular competition round due to high accuracry of the round

[Guest 10mm4me]

You could, but why? Ammo is expensive and what's the advantage? Get a good 9 (G19, P226, P30, P2000) and call it a day. If you wanna feel extra safe, throw some +P's in there for carry and practice with standard velocity ammo.

[Guest 10mm4me]

Well I have been looking at an astra a-80 that I kinda like but it is 38 super. I also 38 super was a popular competition round due to high accuracry of the round

The .38 super is not anymore accurate than any other round. It has a high velocity, and shoots flatter, but don't confuse that with accuracy. With a high quality gun, accuracy is completely dependent on the shooter.

[Dolomite_supafly]

Actually if you look and read a lot of the numbers, as velocity drops penetration goes up. There is a range in which bullets work, too fast the penetration is nill, too slow and penetration is nil. Somewhere in between those two and penetration is substantially more. The reason is at the higher velocities the bullet's integrity is compromised as it hits something and basically comes apart, reducing velocity. On the converse when the bullet has very little velocity and energy it will not overcome the friction and penetrate very far. Between these two the bullet has enough velocity to penetrate but not enough to disrupt the bullet. Some bullet designs penetrate better than others, like a FMJ, but in all bullet designs there is a point where there isn't enough velocity to cause the bullet to come apart and in those instances the bullet becomes a FMJ for the most part and penetration increases.

Take a 9mm for example. I was doing some penetration testing shooting 95 grain FMJ's. At 1300 FPS those little FMJ's would travel through several water filled jugs. When I took that same bullet and pushed it to 2000+ fps the bullet never made it out of the first jug. (No it wasn't being fired out of a pistol but a rifle) There were bits and pieces of the jacket as well as the core insdie the first jug. The reason is the bullet was travelling too fast for the bullet's integrity to remain intact. And this can be said for any bullet design, too fast or too slow and penetration sucks, in the middle and penetration increases substantially.

Look at this chart (not mine):

http://stevespages.com/jpg/bestbullet.jpg

You will see the bullets tend to penetrate deeper as the velocity drops off. One (Sierra ProHunter) went from 12.3" of penetration at 3100 fps to over 60" at 1900 fps. This remains the same for all the bullets in the chart, as velocity drops penetration increases. There are a few that have less penetration a step or two down from the top but the less velocity a bullet has the more penetration is increased and not by a little but by a lot.

Just something to think about. This is where bullet selection is key. You want to find a bullet that is designed to work in your velocity range. It may take calls to bullet makers to get the suggestions you need but without having an idea of how the bullet is going to perform you are going to be trusting your life on hopes and dreams.

Dolomite

[Dolomite_supafly]

The .38 super is not anymore accurate than any other round. It has a high velocity, and shoots flatter, but don't confuse that with accuracy. With a high quality gun, accuracy is completely dependent on the shooter.

Shoots flatter than what?

Dolomite

[Lumber_Jack]

Actually if you look and read a lot of the numbers, as velocity drops penetration goes up. There is a range in which bullets work, too fast the penetration is nill, too slow and penetration is nil. Somewhere in between those two and penetration is substantially more. The reason is at the higher velocities the bullet's integrity is compromised as it hits something and basically comes apart, reducing velocity. On the converse when the bullet has very little velocity and energy it will not overcome the friction and penetrate very far. Between these two the bullet has enough velocity to penetrate but not enough to disrupt the bullet. Some bullet designs penetrate better than others, like a FMJ, but in all bullet designs there is a point where there isn't enough velocity to cause the bullet to come apart and in those instances the bullet becomes a FMJ for the most part and penetration increases.

Take a 9mm for example. I was doing some penetration testing shooting 95 grain FMJ's. At 1300 FPS those little FMJ's would travel through several water filled jugs. When I took that same bullet and pushed it to 2000+ fps the bullet never made it out of the first jug. (No it wasn't being fired out of a pistol but a rifle) There were bits and pieces of the jacket as well as the core insdie the first jug. The reason is the bullet was travelling too fast for the bullet's integrity to remain intact. And this can be said for any bullet design, too fast or too slow and penetration sucks, in the middle and penetration increases substantially.

Look at this chart (not mine):

http://stevespages.com/jpg/bestbullet.jpg

You will see the bullets tend to penetrate deeper as the velocity drops off. One (Sierra ProHunter) went from 12.3" of penetration at 3100 fps to over 60" at 1900 fps. This remains the same for all the bullets in the chart, as velocity drops penetration increases. There are a few that have less penetration a step or two down from the top but the less velocity a bullet has the more penetration is increased and not by a little but by a lot.

Just something to think about. This is where bullet selection is key. You want to find a bullet that is designed to work in your velocity range. It may take calls to bullet makers to get the suggestions you need but without having an idea of how the bullet is going to perform you are going to be trusting your life on hopes and dreams.

Dolomite

+1 good, info there

[leroy]

The super is a good choice for the following reason: Recoil is mild (...in the full size government frame...) and accuracy is good. The super will do anything that a 9mm will do and do it with a heavier bullet at a higher velocity. Having said all that; handloading is the way to go with the super (...or any other caliber you shoot a lot...).

The super is a good choice for defense if you like the 1911 platform. I'm getting a bit older, and not as tolerant to recoil as i one was. I would like to have a super myself. Make sure that you find a super that headspaces on the case mouth just like a 9 mm and 45acp.

The old ones headspaced on a small ledge on the barrel face. Accuracy with that system was off and on.

Hope this helps.

leroy

[Lumber_Jack]

The super is a good choice for the following reason: Recoil is mild (...in the full size government frame...) and accuracy is good. The super will do anything that a 9mm will do and do it with a heavier bullet at a higher velocity. Having said all that; handloading is the way to go with the super (...or any other caliber you shoot a lot...).

The super is a good choice for defense if you like the 1911 platform. I'm getting a bit older, and not as tolerant to recoil as i one was. I would like to have a super myself. Make sure that you find a super that headspaces on the case mouth just like a 9 mm and 45acp.

The old ones headspaced on a small ledge on the barrel face. Accuracy with that system was off and on.

Hope this helps.

leroy

The Astra a-80, I believe, is a "Sig" style Spanish made gun. I'm not sure how the headspacing is designed on those. Good info, Leroy

[hipower]

The Astra a-80, I believe, is a "Sig" style Spanish made gun. I'm not sure how the headspacing is designed on those. Good info, Leroy

That's a big "Yes' to you. I have an A80, nickel finish. A sweet, accurate shooter. The only problem is finding mags for it. I only have one, and haven't seen another.

[Ebow1]

There's always the Taurus PT1911 in .38 Super. A lot of people on these forums bash Taurus but I've nerver had a problem with them. From what I've seen Taurus is Smith and Wesson without the price tag... and here comes the flak.

[Guest 85rx-7gsl-se]

The .38 super is not anymore accurate than any other round. It has a high velocity, and shoots flatter, but don't confuse that with accuracy. With a high quality gun, accuracy is completely dependent on the shooter.

Thank you for clarifying that. All I know is that for some reason or other 38 super was considered a round of choice for competition shooting once upon a time.

[Dolomite_supafly]

Thank you for clarifying that. All I know is that for some reason or other 38 super was considered a round of choice for competition shooting once upon a time.

Probably the reason for that was that it could be made to meet major caliber while still being a relatively light recoiling caliber when used with a brake. The reason is 38 super had more gasses for the brake to use to dampen the recoil. Without a brake the 38 super and and other caliber at the same power factor are going to be pretty much the same so it was in classes that allowed brakes where the 38 super was king.

To figure out whether a caliber or even a load's power factor you multiplied weight in grains x velocity then divide by 1,000. As of 2008 major is 165 or more while minor is less than 165. Prior to 2008 the number was 175. The minimum is 125.

I am sure another reason is cost of reloading. Considering serious competitors fire ten of thousands of rounds a year during practice the 38 super could save a person who isn't sponsored a lot of money over the years.

Dolomite

[Guest bkelm18]

From what I've seen Taurus is Smith and Wesson without the price tag... and here comes the flak.

Not even close.

[leroy]

....There's always the Taurus PT1911 in .38 Super. A lot of people on these forums bash Taurus but I've nerver had a problem with them. From what I've seen Taurus is Smith and Wesson without the price tag... and here comes the flak.....

Ebow:_______________

I believe they (...Taurus...) are too; especially today. There was a time when it wasn't so; but the CNC revolution put that one to rest. The fact is that most every gun built today (...with the possible exception of freedom arms, and the semi and custom 1911 builders...) is pretty well the same. There are those who will disagree with that opinion, but i believe that if ya look at a real statistical samples it will be born out.

There are a million good 1911's around today that are the direct result of the CNC thing. When i was shootin 1911's; there was one --- Colt ----. To get one to shoot better than stock, you had to wrap your colt up in about as much money (...or more...) than what you paid for it, send it off to a custom guy, and sit around a few months and get it back.

Today, all you need to do is go down to the gun strore or to the net and pick one out.

Every one of them from Taurus, to the phillipine springfield, to the phillipine rock island, to the kimber, to the smith, to the colt shoot the same now; and that is better than about 95% of shooters can hold. I think you are exactly right. Shooting sports today has truly been blessed with the explosion of this technology.

All the old time names bring to the party today is bragging rights (...and im ok with that...I got a pile of them myself...). For $600 dollars today; you can buy what it used to cost a $1000 and a custom gunsmith's time to do. I say your excellent observation is dead on target!!

Keep up the good work!

leroy