The "Age of America" About to End?

[Guest monkeyhumper]

Well, in all fairness, this is a southern gun forum. It's ALWAYS going to be season for a good game of democrat whack-a-mole.

I carry a 9mm, not a .45. Have at me some more.

[G27]

Ok, I've read the report on the 45% I've been hearing lately. I'm not moved. Sorry.

Ne need to apologize. Those screaming that the 'rich' should pay more always mean those who make more than they do. if you made $500k/year, you'd not be clamoring for higher taxes for those making $500k, but anyone making more than you should have to carry said burden.

It's ALWAYS that way.

Why is it OK that CEOs are making more, while none of that gets transferred to the people that actually earn those dollars for them? I'm failing to see how a flat lined income for the many should equal such a huge spike for the few.

Do you think that when everyone got hired they played duck,duck,goose to pick who was a line worker and who got to be CEO?

I mean, wow...

[Guest monkeyhumper]

Ne need to apologize. Those screaming that the 'rich' should pay more always mean those who make more than they do. if you made $500k/year, you'd not be clamoring for higher taxes for those making $500k, but anyone making more than you should have to carry said burden.

It's ALWAYS that way.

Do you think that when everyone got hired they played duck,duck,goose to pick who was a line worker and who got to be CEO?

I mean, wow...

It's not just that a certain group makes MORE. It's that it's so MUCH more. Person A makes $1, person B makes $2, person C makes $3, person D makes $1,000. The next year, for no ascertainable reason, it goes Person A makes $2, person B makes $3, person C makes $4, person D makes $100,000.

If it wasn't duck duck goose, what magically happened to make person D worth exponentially more than everyone beneath them? The top guy making more is nothing new, but the idea that 1 person suddenly deserves many orders of magnitude above those he rules IS new. This, just in the last 10-15 years. Why?

[Guest ab28]

Ok, I've read the report on the 45% I've been hearing lately. I'm not moved. Sorry.

Why is it OK that CEOs are making more, while none of that gets transferred to the people that actually earn those dollars for them? I'm failing to see how a flat lined income for the many should equal such a huge spike for the few.

(After looking at some numbers, I'll concede that my disdain lies mostly with the 1%, not the 2%, so there's that.)

It's something like the top 1% own 60 percent of the wealth. After awhile, standard of living doesn't go up. If you have 10 Ferarris, are you happier because you have 15 now? People don't know when to curb their desires, rich or poor. I am also amused how a CEO can get a fat bonus, but the same company tells the regular employees that there just isn't enough for a raise, sorry. I own almost nothing, and have realized that I get happier the less crap I own.

Ayn Rand was just as much a fresh faced idealist as a hippie was. Her ideas don't work in reality either. She does make some sense, but in unrestrained capitalism, there would be a lot of people that would take advantage, and you would have the horrors of the Industrial Revolution all over again. There are many people who are willing to trade other's lives for wealth and power. Google "Phossy jaw" and read up on it. The poor would be able to do nothing, and you can either work this crap job, or watch your family starve, would be the way it would go for the vast majority of people.

People say that if a job today does not pay enough, get a different one. That doesn't work when the other choices are just as bad. Having 10 different crappy, low paying jobs to choose from is not freedom.

[Guest ab28]

I carry a 9mm, not a .45. Have at me some more.

With modern hollowpoints, there isn't much practical difference. Most coroners say they can't even tell what the guy was shot with until they dug the bullet out.

[Caster]

Not sure why. I have no issues with wealthy people, and I will treat them the same way they treat me. If they are friendly and offer respect, I will do the same. That is true for anyone. I'll be respectful to a homeless guy unless he gives me reason to do otherwise. I don't see the point in giving someone respect just because they have a ton of stuff and money.

I am very frugal with the money I have, so I drive a beater and usually look like I am homeless, without the stench.

The difference is, what you get in return. If you're not getting a perk for your effort, then your approach of treat as treated is how it works for me.

[G27]

It's not just that a certain group makes MORE. It's that it's so MUCH more. Person A makes $1, person B makes $2, person C makes $3, person D makes $1,000. The next year, for no ascertainable reason, it goes Person A makes $2, person B makes $3, person C makes $4, person D makes $100,000.

Welcome to the (almost) free market.

If it wasn't duck duck goose, what magically happened to make person D worth exponentially more than everyone beneath them? The top guy making more is nothing new, but the idea that 1 person suddenly deserves many orders of magnitude above those he rules IS new. This, just in the last 10-15 years. Why?

The CEO probably went to school for years and worked his way up the corporate ladder, proving he could earn the company lots of money. What does the line worker do? He shows up, does his job, collects the wages he agreed to work for and goes home. The line worker doesn't (typically) have the knowledge and experience to help steer a company towards greater profits and typically doesn't willingly work 80 hour weeks.

It's almost as if you have never met a single CEO of a successful company in your entire life. I know many and have never met a single one who didn't work twice as hard as any of his employees, not to mention they often built the very companies they were successfully leading.

Your complaint sounds like the untalented athlete whining that the NFL players make so much money - they make the money because they have the talent.

Here, why not watch this video, then come back and tell us what the problem is:

[Guest monkeyhumper]

Who Rules America: Wealth, Income, and Power

This was an interesting read. It's sad that the US, worldwide, is 93rd when ranked my income equality.

[Guest ab28]

The difference is, what you get in return. If you're not getting a perk for your effort, then your approach of treat as treated is how it works for me.

Well, I would treat Bill Gates with disrespect if he disrespected me. I talk straight with people, and tell them how it really is. Even if I made a lot of money, I don't tolerate disrespect. I quit working for a framing crew, because my boss didn't respect people and treated everyone like crap. I did such a good job he offered me a 4 dollar an hour raise, but it still wasn't worth it.

[G27]

People say that if a job today does not pay enough, get a different one. That doesn't work when the other choices are just as bad. Having 10 different crappy, low paying jobs to choose from is not freedom.

So quit looking to others to pay you and start your own company.

The post above is the problem with folks in this country, it's bitch and moan because no one will hand them something. Oh, I know you aren't looking for free money, but the expectation of a job is pretty telling.

The American Dream is the freedom to strike out on your own and succeed gloriously or fail miserably - it's wonderful, and it might take several failures to succeed, or you may not be cut out to be successful. But to complain that the rich are the problem when you don't have the sack or the ability to do what they do means the issue lies in the mirror...

Indeed, the 'progressives' have done a great job of indoctrinating some into class warfare.

[Caster]

Who the heck wants income equality?

I for one LIKE the fact that a heart surgeon with a god complex makes sooooo much money. The last thing I want in the OR is a level pay grade.

Since when did it become wrong to have something? When did it become illegal to stop buying? If you don't like the price someone charges, don't buy it. Yes it is that simple, it's a free market [sort of] If I want to sell popcorn for $100 a bag, no one has the right to tell me I can't. I won't be selling much popcorn, but if I sold millions worth, people would cry how unfair it was. Well boo hoo.

I tell you all what it boils down to and it ain't the economy. It's natural selection. We've disrupted it from taking course and now idiots, weaklings, cowards and lazy folk are allowed to breed rampant. There was a day when they couldn't, not because it was illegal, but because they didn't live long enough. We need that system to come back. Desperately.

[Caster]

Well, I would treat Bill Gates with disrespect if he disrespected me. I talk straight with people, and tell them how it really is. Even if I made a lot of money, I don't tolerate disrespect. I quit working for a framing crew, because my boss didn't respect people and treated everyone like crap. I did such a good job he offered me a 4 dollar an hour raise, but it still wasn't worth it.

Well, that is your right to do so, and obviously you have survived despite it so...High five for moral fiber. {No, that wasn't sarcasm:up:}

[Guest ab28]

Oh, I know you aren't looking for free money, but the expectation of a job is pretty telling.

Simply the expectation that my job should be enough for basic housing, healthcare, good food. I don't have an issue with working, and I don't care about owning stuff. I can move out in about 25 minutes. When you work 40 hours a week, and have nothing to show for it, is it a wonder why some people just give up?

As for your "progressives" comment, I feel that the wealthy have done a fairly good job of divide and conquer, don't pay attention to the fact that I got a $150 million bonus last year, worry about your neighbor that just bought a new car, or who just won American Idol.

I don't care for liberals or conservatives, actually. They both have some really bad ideas, just like anyone else. I am not advocating wealth distribution, and could care less if someone has a lot more money than I do. I do feel that people should be able to work, and not have to choose between paying rent or feeding their kids, getting heart medication or eating. No matter what economic system is used, people will find a way to screw the system. That goes for rich and poor alike. Capitalism sucks, but it is a lot better than any economic alternative.

[Caster]

. I do feel that people should be able to work, and not have to choose between paying rent or feeding their kids, getting heart medication or eating.

No. It feels as bad to type as it does to read, but no. The cold truth that none of us like; No one owes me a living. The world doesn't owe me squat. It's so coldhearted but the world doesn't owe me food and if I starve and die, it isn't the world's fault as long as I am a free man and un-imprisoned. The "I shouldn't have to choose" attitude is quite understandable but it is the seed from which entitlement grows.

[G27]

No. It feels as bad to type as it does to read, but no. The cold truth that none of us like; No one owes me a living. The world doesn't owe me squat. It's so coldhearted but the world doesn't owe me food and if I starve and die, it isn't the world's fault as long as I am a free man and un-imprisoned. The "I shouldn't have to choose" attitude is quite understandable but it is the seed from which entitlement grows.

This.

Like it or not, you can't have true liberty with a safety net.

[Guest ab28]

No. It feels as bad to type as it does to read, but no. The cold truth that none of us like; No one owes me a living. The world doesn't owe me squat. It's so coldhearted but the world doesn't owe me food and if I starve and die, it isn't the world's fault as long as I am a free man and un-imprisoned. The "I shouldn't have to choose" attitude is quite understandable but it is the seed from which entitlement grows.

Not entitlement at all. If someone is working full time at a job, they should be making enough to afford the basic necessities. If not, either stuff costs too much, or they aren't making enough. Healthcare in this country today is amazingly high, and no one can explain why. I am not talking about people being given stuff, I am talking about people working hard and still not being able to make it.

Also, define entitlement. Banks make money simply by having money. Interest is entitlement. They make money doing absolutely nothing, other than from having money. That is no different than a "welfare queen" getting "free money".

[Caster]

People have been working hard for thousands of years only to fail and die. The effort you put into a days labor is not a measure of what is owed to you. A ditch digger works harder in a day than neurosurgeon works in a month. That doesn't mean anything.

Just because you work hard {and I'll bet you do ab28} doesn't mean ANYTHING. It doesn't mean you should have what you need to survive and it doesn't mean you should be prosperous.

I'm not directing this next part at ANYONE, but I'd like to quote a person from a children's movie. "Sentimental children forever whining about how bitterly unfair your lives have been, well, it may have escaped your notice but life isn't fair."

[Guest monkeyhumper]

"Sentimental children forever whining about how bitterly unfair your lives have been, well, it may have escaped your notice but life isn't fair."

Reminds me of Princess Bride.

Life is pain, Highness. Anyone who says differently is selling something.

[leroy]

.... Healthcare in this country today is amazingly high, and no one can explain why.

.... Banks make money simply by having money. Interest is entitlement. They make money doing absolutely nothing, other than from having money. That is no different than a "welfare queen" getting "free money".

I'm going to take a crack at answering these two questions:

RE: cost of healthcare. I'm retired and i pay 100% of my healthcare. It costs $1400 per month for family coverage and does not cover everything. I know i pay 100 percent of it because the program is defined that way; with BCBS only managing the program (...for a fee...).

I'm 64 years old. When i was in my 30's and 40's (...from 1970 until 1980's...), family coverage was from $300 to $400 per month. It has grown to what you see today. The main reason for that growth is government meddling in the healthcare industry and in the pharmaceudical industry. I well remember when health insurance was non-existant. You simply went to the doctor or pharmacy and paid your bill.

The government went to meddling in this industry in the late sixties. Look where it is today. You may not agree with my assessment of this; but it's the truth. The fact is that insurance is a luxury, not a "right". You have no "right to healthcare"; it is something you pay for. It aint a right, its a commodity that you pay for. The damn government has convinced too many people that it is a "right". It simply aint so and never was.

RE: Your second question about "banks making money" being equated with "welfare queens". The fact is that banks risk the money they are trusted with (... investors dollars, your dollars, my dollars, as well as the bank's dollars from "interest...) in order to make money. They get paid in "interest". It's the same thing as investors in a company risking the dollars they put in in order to make a product or provide a service that can be sold at a profit. Sales minus expenses equal profit. That is the underlying principle of the capitalist system. If a bank makes a bad judgement on a loan and the borrower does not pay the loan back; the bank is obligated to make the investors whole. The bank is also obligated by law to make the deposits that you and i make good as well. That's the risk they take. Welfare doesn't work that way; the "welfare queens" simply harvest the largesse without any risk.

Companies that do not make money go out of business (...unless they get special treatment thru cash infusion like General Motors did; its called union payback; all at your expense (...if you pay taxes....)...). Banking is simply another form of business, the banks lend investor's money and make interest. The product is the loan. The profit is the interest harvested.

We can quibble about all this; but that is how the capitalist system works. Neither you nor the company you work for can make it without the bank at the start. We all need loans.

Are there "insider deals'?--- of course there are and always have been. Are there abuses? -- you bet; and there always have and will be. Is there such a thing as "corporate welfare"? -- you bet -- look at General Motors and General Electric. Corporate welfare at its worst.

Should we do away with the capitalist system and adopt the "...To each according to his need, from each according to his ability..." like the great god Marx said: ... NO...!! We need to clean up the system we have and go on about our business.

To clean it up; folks are going to have to decide to be self-reliant, get off the dole, live within their means, and to hold the "ruling class" accountable. Otherwise, you will get what we now have and the whole system will collapse under it's own debt load.

The fact is that "there aint no rainbow stew, nor is there any free lunch...". The other fact is that there will always be rich and poor; there always have been. If there are no rich people or corporations; there will be no jobs and no work for us less affluent folks.

leroy

Edited April 26, 2011 by leroy
formatting and punctuation!!!

[gregintenn]

If someone is working full time at a job, they should be making enough to afford the basic necessities.

This is horse feces! A guy who shows up when he has nothing better to do, and pushes a button 8 hours a day isn't worth what a software developer or brain surgeon is. Look at teachers if you want a good example of income equality. A good teacher is hard to come by, and in my opinion, worth six figures. In our current system, they make the same as a more common, useless sorry teacher; the exact same money! Which is more valuable? If you want more income, make yourself more valuable. Don't try to vote yourself more money. I've worked hard for many years to get where I am. I could do different things to make more money. I have that ablilty. I am happy where I am, and value my spare time to spend with my children more than the extra money I could be earning. I do not begrudge people who chose differently. It's easy to blame others for your shortcomings. It's more difficult to overcome them.

[G27]

I'm not saying that just based on this single response, Leroy, but rather from reading many of your posts - you have great wisdom. Thanks for sharing it.

[gregintenn]

I'm not saying that just based on this single response, Leroy, but rather from reading many of your posts - you have great wisdom. Thanks for sharing it.

+1 There's a lot to be learned from Leroy. He's been there and done that, and is kind enough to share his insight with us.

[leroy]

Greg and Crimson:_______

Thank you both for the kind words. I am humbled by them.

Many thanks,

leroy

[Caster]

Reminds me of Princess Bride.

Life is pain, Highness. Anyone who says differently is selling something.

That's the God's honest truth as well.

[Guest ab28]

This is horse feces! A guy who shows up when he has nothing better to do, and pushes a button 8 hours a day isn't worth what a software developer or brain surgeon is. Look at teachers if you want a good example of income equality. A good teacher is hard to come by, and in my opinion, worth six figures. In our current system, they make the same as a more common, useless sorry teacher; the exact same money! Which is more valuable? If you want more income, make yourself more valuable. Don't try to vote yourself more money. I've worked hard for many years to get where I am. I could do different things to make more money. I have that ablilty. I am happy where I am, and value my spare time to spend with my children more than the extra money I could be earning. I do not begrudge people who chose differently. It's easy to blame others for your shortcomings. It's more difficult to overcome them.

So, if you work hard and can't get even basic necessities, what's the point? The point of working is to earn money to buy the things you need. I am talking about basics, not buying a huge house or a BMW. At a basic job(McD's, 40 hrs a week, or waitressing), people should be able to have a place to rent(small apt), decent food(not processed garbage), and basic healthcare(anything besides a major injury). This is bare minimum. There are plenty of unskilled people with no other options. I do not believe in income equality. I just think someone that has a basic job should at least be able to afford the basics. I have VA coverage, but just out of curiosity, I looked up a healthcare plan. I'm 31, nonsmoker, rarely drink, I work out, hike all the time. There wasn't a policy that I considered affordable. They had high monthly payments and high deductibles.

I think people are getting irritated because they are working hard and get nothing in return. I am incredibly cheap, very good at saving and spending, and spent a lifetime doing so, and I still see it as difficult.

For the record, I have been working since I was 13, I got an old beater mower and fixed it and pushed it around neighborhoods mowing yards for 10 bucks. I did not work while I was in college, for a couple of years, as I did not need to. GI bill, loans, and grants covered my expenses.