Are you ready for a fuel cell powered car?

[Raoul]

Here's a very cool story about a new discovery that could dramatically bring down the cost of a fuel cell.

Discovery Could Make Fuel Cells Much Cheaper | Autopia | Wired.com

[Oh Shoot]

Here's a very cool story about a new discovery that could dramatically bring down the cost of a fuel cell.

Discovery Could Make Fuel Cells Much Cheaper | Autopia | Wired.com

All well and good, though this article, like many others, don't address the what seems to be the economic reality that it takes more energy to produce refined hydrogen than the hydrogen itself can release in a fuel cell. As I understand it, even the experimental bus systems that are being run on hydrogen production are successful in the cleaner environmental sense only, not in a total net energy savings, since the hydrogen production takes more energy in electricity and/or heat than it releases in the vehicles.

It's nice that you could run a vehicle with no bad emissions, but if it cost the equivalent of $20 per gallon in gasoline, not sure this is a solution for the masses. Or indeed, not for mass transit either, since it still take hydrocarbon fuel/coal/nuke to make the hydrogen in the first place, and at a net loss of total energy used to do it.

- OS

Edited April 24, 2011 by OhShoot

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Yeh, I wonder if they thought about that?

No thanks. I'll wait for this current commie to leave his post and maybe have a "drill baby, drill"

POTUS.

[bigwakes]

I'm so sick of alternate fuel vehicles. That's why gas prices are so high. Obama and his comrades are trying to artificially raise gas prices to make alternate fuel a viable option.

[vontar]

Right now, the only upside to the hydrogen fuel cell is, that the electric used to produce the hydrogen can come from green sources. It can be produced by wind/solar and other renewable sources. However, we do not have the infrastructure in place for to make a mass conversation for it to make sense; however we have enough people looking for work. We have the people that are willing and able to build it, but the catch is, who is willing to pay for a project like that?

It would involve massive solar and wind farms, plus upgraded power grids. It would not be an over night project, it would not be a 1 or 5 year project either.

[Guest mosinon]

Well the nuke option seems viable. But then why bother with hydrogen when you could use electricity?

I think the real problem with all the alternative fuels is not necessarily about energy savings. Energy savings is something people who care about this stuff worry about and most people don't care about Sadi Carnot. The real problem is the cost. When they can crank out a cheap electric/hydrogen/unicorn fart car people will buy it. And it has to be cheaper up front, none of this ten year pay off crap. Green energy is great but when people think about green they think about the green in their wallets.

IT's a tough time for the technology, it is there (kinda) but it isn't really there yet. I think it is a bit like Palms back in the day. Everyone talked about how cool the Palm was but only a few people went all in. Now, everyone walks around with a Palm device called a smartphone. They'll get it right someday but until then I will stick with my internal combustion engine.

[Guest mosinon]

I'm so sick of alternate fuel vehicles. That's why gas prices are so high. Obama and his comrades are trying to artificially raise gas prices to make alternate fuel a viable option.

Goodness, tell me more. What has Obama done to raise gas prices?

[Dolomite_supafly]

In europe they embraced using diesel in cars a long time ago. They also have some that have some very nice performance figures, even beyond comparable gasoline cars. We are seeing some here but nothing like what is available in europe. And some of the hotrodders are starting to use the diesel for their performance. Here is a pretty wild example of a diesel powered hotrod from SEMA.

Diesel would be a better alternative than the current choices we, as a nation, are pursuing. Diesel cars running on bio diesel would probably be the easiest to transition to and with ease of transition comes a reduced cost. We already have the intrastructure for supplying liquid fuels. Problem with diesel is most people view diesel as the dirty fuel of yesteryear or as the fuel for industrial trucks and equipment, not family cars. Personally I would like to see a diesel sports car come to market here that would "wow" everyone into realizing diesel isn't just for your father's tractor.

If hydrogen is a must (I hope not) then use another alternative to generate it. Rather than use a hydrogen fuel cell make a on demand hydrogen generator that is part of the car itself. That way there is no need to generate it before hand and involve other energy producing systems in its manufacture. There are a lot of videos on the web where people are generating hydrogen in the car by splitting water then burning the hydrogen. It is just a matter of getting enough generators in the car to produce enough to run the car. Another problem is the plates used to split the water generally have a realtively short life, as in months. But when you consider the cost of the plates and water versus the cost of gas the plates are probably going to win out every time. Perhaps have the same schedule to cahnge paltes as oil changes to make it easier for people.

The biggest problem I see with using hydrogen in any car is that is releases water. Water in and of itself isn't bad but imagine a fine mist of water tht is being sprayed on the roadway when temperatures are well below freezing. Eventually it will lturn into a solid sheet of ice and cause a lot of mayhem.

Just some of my ramblings

Dolomite

[dats82]

The more pressing issue that should be addressed right now is finding a way to make internal combustion more efficient for the cars already on the road. Even if you come up with an alternative, whether it be electric or hydrogen or whatever, it will take decades for everyone to be on board with that. What do you do in the meantime for people who cannot afford to go spend 20-25k on a new car just because some environmentalists wants? I am not a chemist or engineer, but I do believe there has to be a way to dramatically increase the efficiency of what is being used now. I have heard and read a few stories of such things, but i've never seen anything available for consumers.

[enfield]

Fuel cells are not a panacea for automobiles. Basically they're expensive but very reliable substitutes for batteries. If batteries are adequate, why use a fuel cell (unless you're an engineer just using one for the 'cool' factor).

It still takes more energy, overall, to crack water than you get from the resultant hydrogen. If you put energy into water to get hydrogen, and then take energy from the hydrogen, creating electricity, heat and water, you get less usable energy than you put into the process.

Solar power is currently a dead end. If you had 100% efficiency in a solar panel, instead of the current <20%, a 10 square foot panel would produce enough energy to run a 1 Hp motor.

What we need to do, right now instead of talking about it for another 30 years, is DRILL!

I am not a chemist or engineer, but I do believe there has to be a way to dramatically increase the efficiency of what is being used now. I have heard and read a few stories of such things, but i've never seen anything available for consumers.

At the current state of technology, those stories are Science Fiction.

Edited April 24, 2011 by enfield

[LagerHead]

Goodness, tell me more. What has Obama done to raise gas prices?

Calling out oil companies for not drilling on currently owned/leased land and then blocking their drilling permits.

Obama Administration Blocking 103 Gulf Drilling Permits

[Guest Lester Weevils]

A few years ago read a sci-am article about fuel cells that will burn hydrocarbons such as gasoline or alcohol or methane, rather than pure hydrogen.

Dunno if that avenue has proven impractical. If the non-platinum catalyst could be adapted for use with hydrocarbons, then hydrocarbons are obviously less expensive and easier to handle than hydrogen.

[mav]

Don't know about the rest of you guys, but I am still waiting on GM's flagship model to become available, the Barackus. It runs on nothing but bulls**t.

[DaveTN]

It doesn’t matter what the fuel source is; you will pay the same per mile rate you are paying now (or more).

The people making these vehicles are doing it to save the planet. ( ) Well that and because the state of California told them they had to. They couldn’t care less how it impacts your finances.

[Sheepdog]

It doesnt matter what the fuel source is; you will pay the same per mile rate you are paying now (or more).

The people making these vehicles are doing it to save the planet. ( ) Well that and because the state of California told them they had to. They couldnt care less how it impacts your finances.

Not to mention that when the Federal and state governments start losing revenue on gas taxes, they're going to find alternative ways to tax "alternative fuel vehicle" drivers. You will save zero dollars by switching to non-gas or hybrid vehicles.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

[Oh Shoot]

The more pressing issue that should be addressed right now is finding a way to make internal combustion more efficient for the cars already on the road. ....

I've read several articles that claim automotive engineering is already getting 95% or better of the total potential combustion of gasoline and diesel. Seems that any significant advances in efficiency will have to be mechanical. Perhaps total plastic construction, including all engine components, but reducing weight even to just slightly over the that of the cargo itself is unlikely to produce any quantum leap in efficiency.

Perhaps an anti-gravity component. Then you'd just need a decent size fan to get up to speed. Maybe no propulsion at all to go downwind.

- OS

[dats82]

I've read several articles that claim automotive engineering is already getting 95% or better of the total potential combustion of gasoline and diesel. Seems that any significant advances in efficiency will have to be mechanical. Perhaps total plastic construction, including all engine components, but reducing weight even to just slightly over the that of the cargo itself is unlikely to produce any quantum leap in efficiency.

Perhaps an anti-gravity component. Then you'd just need a decent size fan to get up to speed. Maybe no propulsion at all to go downwind.

- OS

I was really referring to burning something other than just petrol products to achieve greater efficiency, or perhaps greater use of non-naturally aspirated engines to have the same power in a smaller size and less use of fuel. I was thinking more along the lines of using turbos or N20 to get more power.

[bigwakes]

Goodness, tell me more. What has Obama done to raise gas prices?

He sued BP billions for the spill and I have yet to see where that money went. Maybe he started a Barrack retirement fund or sent some cash to his Saudi buddies. BP Says Fine Doesn As if cleaning up the mess was not enough they might be fined as much as 20 Billion dollars. You dont think they would ever pass that onto the consumer would you?

[Guest mosinon]

Calling out oil companies for not drilling on currently owned/leased land and then blocking their drilling permits.

Obama Administration Blocking 103 Gulf Drilling Permits

Hah, well, no. That won't drive prices up for a few more years. Probably a dozen. I'm thinking right now. I can't see where he has done anything much to drive up oil prices. Kinda of like all the stuff he does, you won't feel the impact of the decision until after he can't run again.

[strickj]

Company I used to work for develops hydrogen fuel cells (including the Chattanooga buses).

http://www.modine.com/web_server_content/en_us/PDF_non_pub/engine/RandD_Brochure.pdf

It's really pretty neat how it all works and all... but in a few years these will be like Betamax or HDDVD. There are just too many thing against it for it to ever make it popular in the consumer market.

Hah, well, no. That won't drive prices up for a few more years. Probably a dozen. I'm thinking right now. I can't see where he has done anything much to drive up oil prices. Kinda of like all the stuff he does, you won't feel the impact of the decision until after he can't run again.

The president affects oil prices like squirrels affect nut prices.

Yes, he can do things to make the price go down... but noting he does makes them go up.

We have our own greed and fear to thank for high gas prices.

Greed - Oil Speculators are buying and reselling oil on the open market many times over before the oil reaches the consumer.

Fear - Every time someone sneezes people panic and drive up demand while rushing to the pump.

[Guest mrkirker]

The plans to tax alternate fuel vechs are already in the works in Tennessee.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Don't know about the rest of you guys, but I am still waiting on GM's flagship model to become available, the Barackus. It runs on nothing but bulls**t.

Hi Mav

Yes that will be worth waiting on.

Am beginning to wonder if it would be better to wait for the 2012 models. The Barakillac, Obamalibu, Barvette, Oburban, Baramaro, Obampala. and the Barado truck will all be tri-fuel machines capable of running not only on BS, but also Hot Air and Red Ink.

[peejman]

Only when saving the world become profitable, will it also become a priority.