AG opinion on ID to vote bill

[macville]

So if you haven't seen this article today, it's an interesting one: AG: Requiring photo ID for voting 'likely' unconstitutional » Knoxville News Sentinel

But here's what I am interested in. The AG says that such a law would be unconstitutional under the 24th amendment (strange that this amendment applies to the states, but other ones like the second doesn't supposedly...) So if they passed a law, since the cheapest state ID that would pass for the law is $10, it would be considered a poll tax (which seems a stretch to me considering they aren't requiring only a certain type of ID, many different kinds would work.) So basically, even $10 is too much to require to be able to vote. Which I am not sure how that works considering you have to have photo id for even the most basic of things, like opening a bank account. Normally, the people who don't have $10 don't have an address either, so they couldn't register to vote anyway.

But that's really not what I am thinking about. The question I come up with is, the opinion says people can't be charged to vote because it is a right. You have an amendment that spells that out pretty clearly. But why can you be charged by the feds/state to use any other right that you have? AKA: Carry permit. I don't see them charging us for freedom of speech, so why to carry a gun since it is a right?

Just thinking outloud here. While we need to charge worthless gun control head on, sometimes it is good to think outside the box, because it can change standings that makes charging head on easier.

[Guest bkelm18]

Because no court is willing to say that carrying a firearm is a right. Sure they'll say it's an individual right to own one, but no right to carry.

[strickj]

But that's really not what I am thinking about. The question I come up with is, the opinion says people can't be charged to vote because it is a right. You have an amendment that spells that out pretty clearly.

There is no 'right to vote'. There are only protections to vote based on discrimination (age,sex,etc) and poll taxes.

[1gewehr]

Voting CAN be legally restricted by many factors. It cannot be restricted by:

1) on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude - Amendment XV

2) on account of sex - Amendment XIX

3) by reason of failure to pay poll tax or other tax - Amendment XXIV

4) who are eighteen years of age or older, ... on account of age - XXVI

Theoretically, you COULD restrict voting to only veterans, or High School graduates, or require a test on civic responsibility in order to vote.

[DaveTN]

The Feds didn’t give the states gun rights; they took them; it’s called States Rights.

The issue you are talking about isn’t who has $10 or who doesn’t; it’s about people trying to find a way to allow illegals to vote.

[Guest friesepferd]

they did vote to incorperate the 2nd ammendment. it does not apply to the states the same way that it does the fed gov.

now they still havnt said that the 2A says its our right to carry guns... but still.

some ammendments apply to fed gov only (now very few), most are both, some are just state i guess. havnt really checked into that much

[china coaster]

All this could be avoided by simply requiring everyone to have their voter registration card to vote. To get one you have to prove you are a citizen (liberals don't like that) and a resident of the state and district in which you are registeriing. we that are over 60 do not have to have a photo drivers license, and most folks don,t have a HCP; so theoretically one would have to get some type of photo ID.Some districts allow utility bills,SS card, library card a nd anything that puts them at an address in the district.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

It's not a poll tax when everyone has the opportunity to get a driver's license. Who exactly

will this be excluding? Very few, except dead people and the very few who don't drive. It's

not necessarily the photo that needs to be available, but if a citizen doesn't have a driver's

license and wishes to vote, a birth certificate should work along with another piece of ID. I

realize dead folks may not have ten bucks but that that's too bad.

This is just threatening the democrat base. I didn't know it was that big.

[Grunt67]

It's not a poll tax when everyone has the opportunity to get a driver's license. Who exactly

will this be excluding? Very few, except dead people and the very few who don't drive. It's

not necessarily the photo that needs to be available, but if a citizen doesn't have a driver's

license and wishes to vote, a birth certificate should work along with another piece of ID. I

realize dead folks may not have ten bucks but that that's too bad.

This is just threatening the democrat base. I didn't know it was that big.

You're right, it's not that big of a deal. You already have to show some proof to get a voters reg. card. Not a stretch to get a DL for ID purposes, or whatever works, for

a voter ID. If it'll keep the illegals out, go for it.

[strickj]

You guys are actually wrong. This is not a left vs right issue. It has nothing to do with "finding a way for illegals to vote" either.

The Dems are very much for this bill. The only thing the Dems want added is a funding amendment (ie:free ID) so that there will be absolutely no way that it could be struck down as unconstitutional by the SCOTUS like it has in other states. As currently presented, requiring an ID to vote, which voters must pay for, is a form of "backdoor tax".

The states where an ID to vote bill was ruled constitutional had funding included within the bill eliminating that "backdoor tax".

There are other amendments that have been added to the bill which would exclude the elderly (+65), those with mental or physical disabilities that would otherwise vote by absentee ballot, and active duty military.

[1gewehr]

I have yet to see any Democrats in favor of voter ID. It seems that they are just using the 'poll tax' argument as their justification for opposing it. And it is not a 'free' ID card, it is a tax-payer funded ID card.

I also find it interesting that requiring a $10 photo ID is considered a 'tax', but requiring a $10 background check fee, permanent documentation (form 4473), and a sworn statement (also form 4473) to purchase a firearm is not considered an 'infringement'. It seems that the rules change depending on who is reading them. Newspapers are exempt from sales tax as that is considered an infringement on the 1st Amendment. But there are no lack of taxes on firearms and ammunition (11% excise, 9.25% sales, $10 TICS check, etc).

[JayC]

Because no court is willing to say that carrying a firearm is a right. Sure they'll say it's an individual right to own one, but no right to carry.

We shall see in Palmer vs Washington DC, then we'll know for sure how bad things have gotten.

[DaveTN]

We shall see in Palmer vs Washington DC, then we'll know for sure how bad things have gotten.

The federal government can’t force Tennessee (or any other state) to allow you to carry a gun. It’s called States Rights; we fought the bloodiest war of our history over it and we won’t do it again. If you want Tennessee to recognize you have a right to bear arms; it is going to have to come from the state of Tennessee.

[Mike.357]

civil war and states rights, not so sure. It was fought over slavery.

What rights did the south lose when the CSA surrendered?

[Guest HvyMtl]

What did we lose Mike? A small, less invasive federal government, and strong states. That is what we lost. Oh, and damage to the protection to the writ of Habeas Corpus, and it was the first time US citizens were forced to go through military tribunals. In other words, a huge loss of the rights of the citizens, and the damaging of the Constitution, in favor of saving the Federal Government over all else. And several other losses...

But, I digress.

Effectively, from my humble experience as a Poll Official in Davidson County, I did not see an instance of voter fraud. Why? Well, proof of signature is required. You are to sign, and the signature is directly compared to the signature from the last time you voted. If it is the first time you vote, it is compared to signatures given on your voter registration (typically the same as your Drivers License, if you checked the 'register to vote" option on your DL application, or renewal.)

Here are the present ID requirements: http://state.tn.us/sos/election/IDRequirementChart.pdf

The onus is on the first time voter, who used the mail in registration, to ensure no fraud, but at the bottom of the page you see all voters must show a "evidence of their signature," or sign an Affidavit of Identity. What is "evidence of their signature?" Typically, the ones given are your voter registration card (free service) or drivers license (fee.)

So. What then is the reason behind the voter card having Photo ID? The claim is to prevent fraud. Well, anyone with a little cash can get a convincing fake ID. So, we would then have to fall back on, "does the signature match?" Extra layer of protection, yes, but it won't prevent those who wish to commit fraud.

So, if it realistically does not prevent fraud, then there has to be another reason. $10 fee to get an ID? Well, cost will influence some not to bother to get it. Others will not want to deal with the DMV to get their ID. Others may not have a way to get to a DMV station, may not be able to take time off work to wait at a DMV, or may not be informed of the change, if it occurs.

Did you just alienate some from voting? Yes. Did you possibly block some handicapped or elderly from voting? Yes. Is it possible you just made it too costly in time and money for a citizen to vote? Yes. Now you have a problem.

My suggestion to the writer is this: Free service or do not bother. Yes, the $10 can be argued as a poll tax. So follow the Indiana Law and make it a free service (gee thanks, you just added to our tax burden) or forget it.

True, you will still have the issues of getting to a DMV, waiting in line (which will now be a longer wait, as there will be people trying to get their voting ID, added to those getting their DL, Permits, etc.) and added taxpayer costs for covering the higher demands at the DMV (more personnel, more cameras, printers, possibly even more stations and hours to keep up with demand) and the expenses to businesses, to allow people to get off work to wait at the DMV for their ID, and the costs of making transportation and services available to the handicapped and elderly (more tax burden.)

All in all, I have not seen the rampant voter ID fraud necessary to create these other costs, nor has the sponsors of the bill shown the fraud outweighs the additional headaches for the citizens and cost to the taxpayer.

[strickj]

I have yet to see any Democrats in favor of voter ID. It seems that they are just using the 'poll tax' argument as their justification for opposing it. And it is not a 'free' ID card, it is a tax-payer funded ID card.

Then you haven't been following it then. You can watch them online or on PBS

Tennessee Legislature getting public TV coverage this year | timesfreepress.com

I also find it interesting that requiring a $10 photo ID is considered a 'tax', but requiring a $10 background check fee, permanent documentation (form 4473), and a sworn statement (also form 4473) to purchase a firearm is not considered an 'infringement'. It seems that the rules change depending on who is reading them. Newspapers are exempt from sales tax as that is considered an infringement on the 1st Amendment. But there are no lack of taxes on firearms and ammunition (11% excise, 9.25% sales, $10 TICS check, etc).

That is because of the 24th amendment. It does not give the right to vote, it only states that no taxes shall be charged to voters. Requiring someone to pay for an ID is a "backdoor tax". This is according to SCOTUS rulings and not some liberal looking for an excuse for illegals to vote.

The 2nd doesn't say anything about taxes.

It may not sound like much us. It's only 10 dollars and we all need photo ID for stuff anyway.... but it is not like that for a lot of people. Think about seniors (the majority of voters) that are on a fixed income, do not drive, and are not required to have photo ID for anything. For others, that 10 dollars may be the difference between eating and not eating, or buying their kid a school book or not. That 10 dollar "backdoor tax" will prevent them from voting.

And if you think that no restrictions are put on the 1st then you are highly mistaken. Just off the top of the noggin, google "form 2257A" for one example. Record keeping requirements for that blows the 2243 out of the water.

Edited April 15, 2011 by strickj

[GLOCKMEISTER]

the thing is the cost of a ID in Tennessee. Make the ID free and theres no problem.

[macville]

the thing is the cost of a ID in Tennessee. Make the ID free and theres no problem.

That's what I say. I believe that as a resident of the state, you should automatically get a free ID if you chose to. Seems stilly not to since all residents DO pay some state taxes because even homeless people get money and buy stuff at stores.

[JayC]

The federal government can’t force Tennessee (or any other state) to allow you to carry a gun. It’s called States Rights; we fought the bloodiest war of our history over it and we won’t do it again. If you want Tennessee to recognize you have a right to bear arms; it is going to have to come from the state of Tennessee.

All I'm going to say is Brown vs Board of Education and the Little Rock Nine... The federal government has and will force it's will on certain states that do not wish to comply with Supreme Court rulings.

[JayC]

I'm going to say this... how about we work on solving the root cause of this problem? Getting rid of illegal immigrates in this country? Instead of me having to show my papers anytime I want to do something?

[macville]

I'm going to say this... how about we work on solving the root cause of this problem? Getting rid of illegal immigrates in this country? Instead of me having to show my papers anytime I want to do something?

That's great, but when you have a president and the senate who want the illegals here, it's hard to do what really needs to be done. This is just a small way we can at the state level to encourage illegals to leave.

You also need to remember that this is about more than illegals. I highly doubt that many illegals vote in this state (I may be wrong.) What I do think happen, and have even seen reports recently in WI, is that dead people are voting, the mentally ill are voting, felons are voting, people are voting for other people, etc. I firmly believe in one person, one vote, and a picture ID seems like the best and easiest way to do so.

[Guest HvyMtl]

macville, Check out what is happening right now in the TN legislature. There is a GOP group of legislatures pushing for making E-Verify (checking the employee's application to ensure they have the legal right to be employed within the U.S.) system mandatory for all businesses to use. Guess who is pushing back against it? Business and corporations. Not Liberals, Not Conservatives, businesses. Even though the E-Verify is FREE to use. (There is some issue with people having to, "gasp," use the internet to use the system as an "additional" cost...) They do not want to have to do it. Why? Simple. An illegal is cheaper to hire and employ than a citizen. And businesses would be held accountable for hiring illegals, something they really are not held to presently. Guess where our Governor is now attempting to intervene? Yup, he is on the side of business on this one... (shock, surprise, as it would impact his family's $billions business...)

As for the Dead people, mentally ill, felons, and people voting for other people, well... SHOW ME THE PROOF. The sponsors of this bill have not shown one instance of proof. Nor can they claim it to be "rampant" in Tennessee, simply because it is not the case..

And again, the "proof of signature" has a tendency of blocking such acts. IMHO, those illegal acts are easily blocked by the poll workers. By law, if there is any question about the vote, it can be challenged by poll officials, and is reviewed before counted. Multiple checks already exist to prevent this issue...

So, who cannot get an ID in Tennessee? Well, if you do not have a place of residence (ie. homeless) you cannot get ID. Illegals are not supposed to have ID, and yet were given drivers licenses a few years back...

Certain Felons are not allowed to vote. This is already addressed by law. No need for additional laws. Just enforce the ones on the books.

Certain Mentally Ill are not allowed to vote. This is already addressed by law. No need for additional laws. Just enforce the ones on the books.

Elderly have had a long standing "benefit" in Tennessee, where they do NOT have to have Photo ID, including their driver's license. This is the sticking point. You are going to have to get a lot of Elderly to go back to the DMV and get Photo ID. Ever try to change things impacting an Elderly Person? Yeah, good luck with that...

Edited April 17, 2011 by HvyMtl

[DaveTN]

There is a GOP group of legislatures pushing for making E-Verify system mandatory for all businesses to use. Guess who is pushing back against it? Business and corporations. Not Liberals, Not Conservatives, businesses. Even though the E-Verify is FREE to use. They do not want to have to do it. Why? Simple. An illegal is cheaper to hire and employ than a citizen. And businesses would be held accountable for hiring illegals, something they really are not held to presently. Guess where our Governor is now attempting to intervene? Yup, he is on the side of business on this one.

E-Verifyis a simple concept; it will work. These bills don’t go far enough, they only require checking new hires; they need to require checking all employees.

The cost to employers shouldn’t be an issue; there shouldn’t be any. Make a web accessed state site.

Haslams claim that “It’s us saying, we have to make sure we get this right.†is pathetic.

Governor you are charged with ensuring that the laws are enforced. Do you have any other laws you want to disregard or decided if you want your administration to obey them?

Businesses people that knowingly hire illegals are criminals; deal with them. If they leave the state we are better off without them.

[strickj]

As for the Dead people, mentally ill, felons, and people voting for other people, well... SHOW ME THE PROOF. The sponsors of this bill have not shown one instance of proof. Nor can they claim it to be "rampant" in Tennessee, simply because it is not the case..

Umm.... google "Memphis voter fraud". Yup, right here in good ole' Tennessee.

This is a big problem... even if you have never heard of it personally.

So, who cannot get an ID in Tennessee? Well, if you do not have a place of residence (ie. homeless) you cannot get ID. Illegals are not supposed to have ID, and yet were given drivers licenses a few years back...

Certain Felons are not allowed to vote. This is already addressed by law. No need for additional laws. Just enforce the ones on the books.

Certain Mentally Ill are not allowed to vote. This is already addressed by law. No need for additional laws. Just enforce the ones on the books.

Elderly have had a long standing "benefit" in Tennessee, where they do NOT have to have Photo ID, including their driver's license. This is the sticking point. You are going to have to get a lot of Elderly to go back to the DMV and get Photo ID. Ever try to change things impacting an Elderly Person? Yeah, good luck with that...

Obviously you just buzzed through this thread without reading it. This bill has an amendment (1 of 7) that will let the elderly vote on an absentee ballot without photo ID.

[china coaster]

What did Southerners loose when the CSA surrendered? They lost their country. Veterans lost the right to vote, right to assemble,right to wear their uniforms with the buttons on. Southerners coulds be and many were required to give the oath of allegiance to buy supplys, do business at court houses and minesters were required to ask a blessing for the yankee president and the local yankee army commander. other than that nothing.