Speaking of shooting.

[mav]

Hey folks,

After taking off almost two months from shooting, I decided to start going back to the range last week. This evening I was working on one my slow to moderate fire accuracy exercises, which I do about once a week or two weeks. I really set this exercise up to improve my repeatability and to learn to shoot with both eyes open.

In this exercise I am shooting 200 rounds through my Ruger Mark III. My goal is to keep all shots within the x-ring and 10-ring. The target is positioned at the 15 yard mark at Shooter's Depot indoor range. The ammo I am using is CCI MiniMags.

While not my best, here is what I did tonight. I have a couple of questions about it.

As you can see, I had 6 misses, which brings me to my first question. I know CCI Minimags are mid-range 22lr ammo. The grouping minus the flyers is around 2.5 - 2.75". Could I expect a much tighter pattern with a higher grade of ammo? The reason I ask is I notice every now and then that I shoot a round that seems to have more or less of a kick to it.

Second question. I posted a thread several months ago complaining of shooting slightly left. You will notice the above grouping is slightly off-center. Neither me nor my instructor have been able to figure this one out. Either it is an aiming problem or I am pushing my gun slightly when I am squeezing the trigger. Any suggestions outside of aiming further right or posting the infamous shooting wheel of misfortune?

Last question. Am I just being too anal about all of this, and it is good enough that I should just move on to somethig else? While I know it doesn't prove anything and there is no self defense correlation, my goal was to be able to put all 200 rounds through the x-ring only, which I have yet to accomplish (one of the reasons I asked about the ammo).

Thanks.

[Guest J.D. Skull]

Theres still some red, But thats a passing grade.

[Jonnin]

Supposedly the expensive ammo is better, read the bullseye shooter's forums on that topic.

Mini mags have a pretty consistent bullet. What can vary more is the powder. If you weigh 200 of them and pick them to be the same, it may cut out the flyers at the cost of extreme mental anguish or wasted time. So, either buy the $50 a brick stuff or spend an hour or 2 at the scale... cheap ammo has fliers, for sure.

If the trigger is moving you, you may be ready for a high grade trigger or more pricy gun. While the $300 target guns are amazing, you will eventually outgrow them for a hammer or other pricy gun with a better trigger and higher accuracy build. ? I don't know, but it could be time for it.

Are you absolutely sure your gun's sights are not off a tiny bit? Can your instructor put them downrange without being slightly off? Have you tried the gun in a rest, no human errors? How much do you know (what can we eliminate?) ?!

[peejman]

Supposedly the expensive ammo is better, read the bullseye shooter's forums on that topic.

Mini mags have a pretty consistent bullet. What can vary more is the powder. If you weigh 200 of them and pick them to be the same, it may cut out the flyers at the cost of extreme mental anguish or wasted time. So, either buy the $50 a brick stuff or spend an hour or 2 at the scale... cheap ammo has fliers, for sure.

If the trigger is moving you, you may be ready for a high grade trigger or more pricy gun. While the $300 target guns are amazing, you will eventually outgrow them for a hammer or other pricy gun with a better trigger and higher accuracy build. ? I don't know, but it could be time for it.

Are you absolutely sure your gun's sights are not off a tiny bit? Can your instructor put them downrange without being slightly off? Have you tried the gun in a rest, no human errors? How much do you know (what can we eliminate?) ?!

This (mostly).

Better ammo may help, though what you've got is pretty good. I assume this is off-hand. Can you "call your shots"? Working on that will help with the flyers.

A match grade trigger may also help. 200 rounds is a lot. Are you sure fatigue (mental and physical) aren't contributing?

Adjust the sights so your groups are centered. Who cares where anyone else's groups are? It's your gun, set it up for you. I've not shot lots of other people's guns, but when I have it's been rare for my groups to be in the same spot as theirs with the same gun. Particularly with iron sights.

[mav]

Thanks for the response guys.

200 rounds is a lot. Are you sure fatigue (mental and physical) aren't contributing?

Yes, I was thinking about this last night and this morning. Initially my groups are very tight through the first 100 rounds. Once I start working through that second box, I notice the hole starts to increase and my shots are a little lower. I will continue to use this exercise because it was great for developing my ability to shoot with both eyes open. However, I think I will just limit it to 100 rounds. I don't think I will have any problem putting them all within the x-ring outside of the occasional flyer.

As far as this left thing goes, I am not sure what I am going to do. I am pretty sure it is being caused by improper trigger squeeze. I will continue to experiment to see if I can pinpoint the problem and correct it. Ya know, the weird thing is during some range sessions I do not see the problem. While it may seem that being 0.5 - 1.0" off center really isn't a problem, it is. If I am working on certain self defense exercises, the shooting slightly left is exacerbated. For example, if I am shooting very fast and doing rapid transitions from the body to the head it is possible for me to miss the head shot from time to time.

As far as upgrading my gun, I already have a pseudo-match trigger (Volquartsen) on my Ruger. It is very light, but it still isn't a 1911 trigger. Perhaps since Shooters Depot is becoming a S&W dealer, I may be able to get them to give me a good deal on a S&W Model 41. Ever shot one? Are they as good as the price tag?

[Jonnin]

The 41 is accepted by the bullseye community, I would go there to read about this gun in detail. I have not had a chance to try one out. I wonder if the upcoming S&W party will have one to try out, they may have some to try out (?).

Again, if you want to know *for sure* if the left thingy is trigger squeeze, lock the gun into a rest, aim it (rest and all), then see where the bullet goes when you fire it from the device. If it hits where you aimed, its YOU. If it hits off to the left, fix he sights.

ALso, looking at your pic again, are you a touch low as well on the average? I would consider bumping it up one click, the rest-test would tell you that too.

When you shoot your drills for defense, what gun do you use? Is *every* gun you shoot off to the left? If so, you have your answer. If its worse with a defensive type gun (DA or DAO or whatever horrid trigger guns), is it worse because the longer trigger pulls are making it worse?! That also would be an answer.

[mav]

Again, if you want to know *for sure* if the left thingy is trigger squeeze, lock the gun into a rest, aim it (rest and all), then see where the bullet goes when you fire it from the device. If it hits where you aimed, its YOU. If it hits off to the left, fix he sights.

ALso, looking at your pic again, are you a touch low as well on the average? I would consider bumping it up one click, the rest-test would tell you that too.

When you shoot your drills for defense, what gun do you use? Is *every* gun you shoot off to the left? If so, you have your answer. If its worse with a defensive type gun (DA or DAO or whatever horrid trigger guns), is it worse because the longer trigger pulls are making it worse?! That also would be an answer.

Oh, I know it is me. I have set the grip of my gun on the counter and took a few shots and no shots were slightly left. As far as the shots slightly low, I think that is nothing more than fatigue. Here is a different target using the same gun.

I am not quite as left, and definitely not as low as the first target.

As far as this being an issue on all of my guns, it is from time to time. The only thing I know to do is keep shooting and try to diagnose the problem. It is just very frustrating.

[Jonnin]

Its still got a fair amount of left in it. I reconstructed the target ring best I could (mirror image, cutout the mirrored ring, put it back in, rough and fast job) to overlay it. A large number of shots are outside that reconstructed ring, maybe 30 or so, so more than 10%? Thats significant --- and the ring on the right side is intact! This target shows the up/down is fine, but L/R needs something.

[Jonnin]

There is one more thought: Rifle shooters know to let the gun cool between shots, some folks shoot one round in 5 min or so, others shoot 10 and lt it sit, etc. 200 rounds could be making the gun hot which could make your accuracy suffer somewhat. I do not know, never gotten a pistol super hot, but it might be a thought.

yet anouther thought: Have you tried a fresh target or a paster? After a while all you have to aim at is a hole, the X is gone and all that... I find I struggle with NRA targets (big black ring with nothing precise to aim at, just zen the middle of the huge target) and when a target is full of holes, I have the same issue. Maybe you need to replace the target or patch it up every 50 shots.

[bigwakes]

My guess is your first ten rounds probably hit the X directly. If your shots spread after 100 rounds it has got to be a fatigue issue. I deal with that too. One thing that helps me is to go over the fundamentals of shooting in my head as I start each mag after fatigue sets in.