Is it legal to carry military-style pistols?

[MikePapa1]

Don't understand. He didn't get his gun back? Why?

- OS

See above.

[mikegideon]

Well, technically, he did get it back, but the agreement they worked out was that they would dismiss the charges, saving him further grief, expense and time, in exchange for proving that he had, in fact, sold the gun. He produced a sales slip from a gun store showing he'd sold it so the case was dismissed.

We don't have any legal grounds, so we'll just abuse the system. If the guy was really a thug, I'm probably OK with that.

[Oh Shoot]

Well, technically, he did get it back, but the agreement they worked out was that they would dismiss the charges, saving him further grief, expense and time, in exchange for proving that he had, in fact, sold the gun. He produced a sales slip from a gun store showing he'd sold it so the case was dismissed.

Thanks, I missed that somewhere in the flow.

- OS

[DaveTN]

We don't have any legal grounds, so we'll just abuse the system. If the guy was really a thug, I'm probably OK with that.

It sounds like the DA is an “End justifies the means” kind of guy. Cops aren’t allowed to do that; I guess it’s different for DA’s.

[MikePapa1]

Actually, the police arrested him and it went to court before the DA even knew about it. I think the police decided to err on the side of caution, frankly. If you are driving around H'ville with this pistol and a car full of gangbangers from NashVegas, well, the H'ville PD thinks you might be up to no good. I'm not saying that I agree with them, but I understand. This pistol isn't the normal sort they come across so they arrested and let the Court sort it out. I know it's in my self interest, but sometimes that is the way it works. They followed the dictum, arrest them all and we'll sort it out in court. How else are criminal defense lawyers like me going to make a living so I can buy more Sigs?

[mikegideon]

Actually, the police arrested him and it went to court before the DA even knew about it. I think the police decided to err on the side of caution, frankly. If you are driving around H'ville with this pistol and a car full of gangbangers from NashVegas, well, the H'ville PD thinks you might be up to no good. I'm not saying that I agree with them, but I understand. This pistol isn't the normal sort they come across so they arrested and let the Court sort it out. I know it's in my self interest, but sometimes that is the way it works. They followed the dictum, arrest them all and we'll sort it out in court. How else are criminal defense lawyers like me going to make a living so I can buy more Sigs?

As long as we got him here, we might as well get his money

[Garufa]

I think the police decided to err on the side of caution, frankly. If you are driving around H'ville with this pistol and a car full of gangbangers from NashVegas, well, the H'ville PD thinks you might be up to no good. I'm not saying that I agree with them, but I understand. This pistol isn't the normal sort they come across so they arrested and let the Court sort it out. I know it's in my self interest, but sometimes that is the way it works. They followed the dictum, arrest them all and we'll sort it out in court. How else are criminal defense lawyers like me going to make a living so I can buy more Sigs?

Where there is smoke, there is often fire.

[DaveTN]

Actually, the police arrested him and it went to court before the DA even knew about it. I think the police decided to err on the side of caution, frankly. If you are driving around H'ville with this pistol and a car full of gangbangers from NashVegas, well, the H'ville PD thinks you might be up to no good. I'm not saying that I agree with them, but I understand. This pistol isn't the normal sort they come across so they arrested and let the Court sort it out. I know it's in my self interest, but sometimes that is the way it works. They followed the dictum, arrest them all and we'll sort it out in court. How else are criminal defense lawyers like me going to make a living so I can buy more Sigs?

As a lawyer maybe you can fill me in on how that can happen. In Illinois as cops we only arrested people. You didn’t go to court without the States Attorney (DA) filing charges. How in the world can a case get on the court docket without the DA filing charges?

I don’t dress like a thug, and I drive a nice car. I also own a PLR-16. So I guess I’m okay having it there?

[MikePapa1]

As a lawyer maybe you can fill me in on how that can happen. In Illinois as cops we only arrested people. You didn’t go to court without the States Attorney (DA) filing charges. How in the world can a case get on the court docket without the DA filing charges?

I don’t dress like a thug, and I drive a nice car. I also own a PLR-16. So I guess I’m okay having it there?

Officers arrest or file warrants and the DA's aren't involved unless the officer calls one for advice while at the scene. That happens but only rarely unless it is a serious felony. Once the charge is laid its reviewed by a magistrate who sets bond in the case of an arrest or approves (read that as rubber stamps) the officers charge. From there it goes to the Clerk's office for filing. The DA's rarely see the file before the Court date.

I expect that so long as your not cruising around in H'ville with an out of county plate with a car full of gangbangers, you're relatively safe.

[vontar]

Well, technically, he did get it back, but the agreement they worked out was that they would dismiss the charges, saving him further grief, expense and time, in exchange for proving that he had, in fact, sold the gun. He produced a sales slip from a gun store showing he'd sold it so the case was dismissed.

I know I am late to the game but that just does not seem legal or fair since it is a pistol and he was legal to have a pistol despite the company he was with.

[MikePapa1]

I know I am late to the game but that just does not seem legal or fair since it is a pistol and he was legal to have a pistol despite the company he was with.

Maybe you've not realized this yet, but sometimes life's not fair. There is a colorable argument that these pistols don't meet Tennessee's definition for a handgun, but meet's the federal one. Then the question is whether federal preemption under the Supremacy Clause means their definition rules. I think it does, but until there's a case that says so, there still exists a gray area which arguably makes such arrests, at least for now, legal.

If you carry one of these AR type pistols, you ought to be prepared for law enforcement scrutiny at a higher level than if you were carrying a more traditional sidearm.

[Steelharp]

There is a colorable argument

DING DING DING!!!!! WINNER!!!!!!! (just sayin'... and I'm pretty sure we all KNOW it, but don't want to admit it.)

Edited April 14, 2011 by Steelharp

[Stegall Law Firm]

That's one of the more bizarre settlement offers I've ever heard. "Sell the gun and we'll dismiss the charge." I assume the pistol was siezed upon arrest, so they must have had to make arrangements with the property room to release it so the defendant could pick it up to go sell it. I mean, really...

Someone should go to Bill Bernstein's shop and buy it, if it's still there. The owner would have an interesting story to tell.

[vontar]

Well, try this, what if he sold it to the shop, got a receipt for selling it, turned around and brought it back. he would have a new receipt for the purchase. That is what I would have considered doing. It would have cost me the TICS and a most mark up that I would have negotiated with the shop. It should have met the settlement in my opinion. Yes your honor I did sell it, then 7 days later it was for sale and I brought it after pasting background checks.

OK, 7 days would not probably be long enough, should probably best let the charges be dismissed then buy it back. But I think I would have ask my lawyer if I could make a deal with a gun shop to sell them my gun and later buy it back after charges are dismissed. If the DA plays games others should be able to play too.

[Steelharp]

Someone should go to Bill Bernstein's shop and buy it, if it's still there. The owner would have an interesting story to tell.

I started to, but it's a tad rusty now... no biggie, just didn't feel like messing with it.

[DaveTN]

If the DA plays games others should be able to play too.

They can. But as someone that has played the game and paid my own attorney bills I’m guessing this guy won’t want to play anymore. The DA has nothing to lose; you have both your freedom and cash to lose.

[Worriedman]

Maybe you've not realized this yet, but sometimes life's not fair. There is a colorable argument that these pistols don't meet Tennessee's definition for a handgun, but meet's the federal one. Then the question is whether federal preemption under the Supremacy Clause means their definition rules. I think it does, but until there's a case that says so, there still exists a gray area which arguably makes such arrests, at least for now, legal.

If you carry one of these AR type pistols, you ought to be prepared for law enforcement scrutiny at a higher level than if you were carrying a more traditional sidearm.

Is there a moment's consideration that whatever weapon type was in the defendants possession, that there would not have been some charge that would have allowed the pistol, whatever kind it might have been, to be be taken after the stop was made?

What was the cause of the stop in the first place? Was it the fact that he was

cruising around in H'ville with an out of county plate with a car full of gangbangers

I would suspect that he was not waving it out the window, most likely was not brandished for the Officers to see at any point, or he would still be in the Crossbar Motel.

I have an event in my old Home Town tomorrow night, my '71 State Championship football team is being inducted into the County Sports Hall of Fame, and the three guys riding with me to the presentation all look pretty darn rough, should I anticipate being stopped because I have an out of county tag and we look like trouble?

Edited April 14, 2011 by Worriedman

[MikePapa1]

Is there a moment's consideration that whatever weapon type was in the defendants possession, that there would not have been some charge that would have allowed the pistol, whatever kind it might have been, to be be taken after the stop was made?

What was the cause of the stop in the first place? Was it the fact that he was I would suspect that he was not waving it out the window, most likely was not brandished for the Officers to see at any point, or he would still be in the Crossbar Motel.

I have an event in my old Home Town tomorrow night, my '71 State Championship football team is being inducted into the County Sports Hall of Fame, and the three guys riding with me to the presentation all look pretty darn rough, should I anticipate being stopped because I have an out of county tag and we look like trouble?

My recollection, again, I didn't go back and look it up, was that it was a traffic stop. As I recall it was in the vicinity of the Streets of Indian Lake where they'd had some gang issues in the recent past. Here was a car from Nashville, with four young men of color and if they gave the H'ville PD an excuse for stopping them they were going to be stopped. My guess is that the stop was probably a pretext, but a perfectly legal pretext. When the car was stopped, they naturally asked the passengers for ID as well, and, again, as I recall, one of them had an outstanding warrant. Guess what? That means everybody's going to get more scrutiny than they might otherwise. I don't know but my guess is when the officer saw the pistol, even though the driver had his HCP, he concluded that these guys might be up to no good.

Was the arrest illegal? Maybe. I honestly don't know. I remember when the case was still in Sessions, I read through the warrant and I would have been equally happy to argue either side. I did opine to the DA at the time that as long as the ATF considered it a pistol, I thought it was a pistol, but he really didn't care what I thought. the then Chief of Police of H'ville, since retired, wanted the case pressed or it would probably have been resolved in General Sessions.

As to your induction trip, I wouldn't violate any traffic laws, particularly if you're going to be carrying an AR style pistol.

Edited April 14, 2011 by MikePapa1

[Worriedman]

As to your induction trip, I wouldn't violate any traffic laws, particularly if you're going to be carrying an AR style pistol.

No worries on the AR style pistol, do not own one nor do any of my fellows, thought I could if I wanted, carry my 1911 AND my grown up AR as long as it did not have a round up the pipe, but, I am sure that if the constabulary in a small town saw that, it would really raise some hackles, legal or not. I would just as soon not have that conversation, so I will be packing only the pistol in case they find a reason to ask for I.D.

As the home town makes the majority of it's money from running a speed trap, I am sure to be cautious with respect to traffic laws.

I do wonder, is there some statute against having any weapon in a vehicle with a felon in attendance regardless of the possession of a legal permit by the weapon's owner?

[DaveTN]

I do wonder, is there some statute against having any weapon in a vehicle with a felon in attendance regardless of the possession of a legal permit by the weapon's owner?

I haven’t seen any, but if he had access to it an argument could be made for constructive possession and they could let it go to court.There was no violation of the law in this case, but the guy had to get rid of his gun and pay his attorney bills.

[Steelharp]

I am sure that if the constabulary in a small town

Hend'ville PD's a$$holism is fairly legendary. I have never had a problem with them; personally, the guys I dealt with during some domestic issues years ago were very nice and understanding. But, negative stories abound...

[MikePapa1]

I do wonder, is there some statute against having any weapon in a vehicle with a felon in attendance regardless of the possession of a legal permit by the weapon's owner?

No, but if you are carting around multiple felons, it might give the police a reason to provide a higher level of scrutiny.

[Steelharp]

No, but if you are carting around multiple felons, it might give the police a reason to provide a higher level of scrutiny.

I can see that...

[Guest mbushell]

A tennessee HCP allows the permitholder to carry any gun he or she can legally own, and as many of them as they wish. The exception to the rule is that a rifle or shotgun cannot have a round in the chamber, but can otherwise be loaded to capacity.

[Oh Shoot]

A tennessee HCP allows the permitholder to carry any gun he or she can legally own, and as many of them as they wish. The exception to the rule is that a rifle or shotgun cannot have a round in the chamber, but can otherwise be loaded to capacity.

You can't walk around town with a loaded long gun though -- only a handgun.

- OS