Killer of Police Officer may have purchased a pistol at a gunshow.

[Guest RevScottie]

I agree with Jamie, while asking questions isn't fool proof it does tend to make someone up to no good nervous.

I'm thinking any transaction I make from now on will be a bill of sale with both parties DL#s, statement about felons/stolen property and signed and dated by both parties. Sure somebody can still lie but I think this is better than nothing.

Anybody want to bet that their will be TV crews at the Shriners gun show in Chattanooga this weekend?

[RobertNashville]

Not me, I will sell to anybody and buy from anybody, that tells me they're not a felon and they live in TN and they're older then 21. How can you look at someone for the first time and not trust them? I've had some friends that looked like street thugs. But they were law abiding citizens.

I'm not saying it's "fair" but I wouldn't sell a firearm or buy one from somebody who truly looked like a "street thug" even if they might be the nicest, most law-abiding "good guy" on the face of the planet...in other words, someone's appearance does mean something (especially if you know nothing else about them).

I can't put it in scientific terms but I suspect most people know the "nagging feeling" you can get...that "vibe" you can get from some someone that says "untrustworthy"...that's what I'm talking about...if I ever got that "feeling" when engaging in a firearms transaction I'm saying I would walk away. Maybe I'd be losing a great deal but I'd probably sleep better that night.

[Guest GLOCKGUY]

I agree with Jamie, while asking questions isn't fool proof it does tend to make someone up to no good nervous.

I'm thinking any transaction I make from now on will be a bill of sale with both parties DL#s, statement about felons/stolen property and signed and dated by both parties. Sure somebody can still lie but I think this is better than nothing.

Anybody want to bet that their will be TV crews at the Shriners gun show in Chattanooga this weekend?

I've walked away from deals because of someone wanting a bill of sale. You will find out real quick alot of people that buy or trade with individuals don't want any paper trail at all, if they did they would just buy from a gun-shop.

[Guest tommy62]

From Chattanooga Times Free Press

Jesse Mathews, the suspect in the shooting death of Chattanooga police Sgt. Tim Chapin, was booked into the Hamilton County Jail about 12:45 p.m. today.

He was charged with one count of felony murder, two counts of attempted first-degree murder and one count of especially aggravated robbery, records show.

He has not yet seen a magistrate, so no bond has been set.

The path that led to the death of a Chattanooga police officer started in Colorado and traveled through Nashville and Asheville, N.C., before finally ending here, authorities say.

Mathews’ parents and sister have been charged with multiple federal felonies related to his fleeing custody in Colorado, traveling to Tennessee and acquiring firearms.

According to a federal affidavit released this morning, Jesse Mathews is accused of robbing a pawn shop in Colorado on Feb. 12, the day before he disappeared from the Department of Corrections halfway house in which he had been serving his sentence from a 2003 conviction for robbery.

Using money from the robbery, the affidavit says, he wired money to his sister Rachel Mathews so she could fly to Colorado to help him escape. The affidavit does not say where she was living at the time.

Once in Colorado, Rachel Mathews bought bus tickets for Jesse Mathews and his girlfriend — who is unnamed in the affidavit — so they could travel to Nashville. Rachel Mathews' boyfriend, James Poteete, picked the pair up at the Nashville bus station, the affidavit said. Jesse Mathews paid Poteete $1,000 to drive them to Asheville, N.C., to meet his parent, Kathleen and Ray Mathews.

Once in Asheville, Jesse Mathews told his parents that he was a fugitive and had robbed the Colorado pawn shop, the affidavit states.

At one point, the Colorado Department of Corrections called Kathleen Mathews, asking if she knew where her son was, but she said she didn’t.

On March 6, Jesse, Kathleen and Ray Mathews were seen by a witness as they moved into a Chattanooga motel, the affidavit said. The witness later became Jesse Mathews’ girlfriend, but she is not named in the documents.

On March 16, Kathleen and Ray Mathews moved into a house in Chattanooga, the affidavit said. Poteete told investigators with the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives that one of the items he moved into the house was a bulletproof vest.

On March 27, Jesse Mathews and his girlfriend attended the RK Gun Show at the National Guard Armory in Chattanooga, where he spoke with someone for about 30 minutes, the affidavit said.

He then called his parents and told his father to bring “the family collection” to the gun show, according to the affidavit. About an hour later, his father came to the girlfriend’s home, where he unloaded about 10 to 12 guns, some of which were among the firearms stolen in the Colorado robbery, officials said.

In a news conference this morning, U.S. Attorney Bill Killian detailed charges against the family and the sister’s boyfriend:

Kathleen Mathews, 57, is charged with being an accessory after the fact to a Hobbs Act robbery, possession of a firearm in relation to a crime of violence, misprision of a felony (concealing information about a felony), disposing of a firearm to a convicted felon and being a felon in possession of a firearm. Killian said she was convicted of manslaughter in Florida.

Ray Vance Mathews, 50, is charged with being an accessory after the fact to a Hobbs Act robbery, possession of a firearm in relation to a crime of violence, misprision of a felony and disposing of a firearm to a convicted felon

Rachel Mathews, 21, also is charged with being an accessory, possessing a firearm in relation to a crime of violence and misprision of a felony.

Poteete, 26, is charged with accessory after the fact, misprision of a felony and carrying a firearm in relation to a drug trafficking crime.

Killian said the charges come after an investigation by the FBI, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, the TBI, Chattanooga police and the Hamilton County Sheriff’s office.

From : The Chattanoogan

On March 27, Mathews and the girlfriend went to the R.K. Shows gun show at the National Guard Armory. Mathews spoke to someone there, then left. He called his father and told him to bring "the family collection." Mathews traded three of the guns for an M-4 assault rifle.

Authorities said family members had kept a cache of 16 guns taken during the robbery of the Cash America Pawn Store in Colorado Springs and provided them to Jesse Mathews. Mathews also got about $10,000 in cash and some jewelry in that holdup, officials said. He brandished a firearm during the robbery. Authorities said family members admitted that Mathews confessed the crime to them.

Sorry for the long post. I wanted to put the printed facts instead of trying to do it from memory. If you go to either of the sources websites and read the complete stories I promise you will be as pissed as I am about this bunch of trash taking the life of a fine officer.

Edited April 8, 2011 by tommy62

[Guest Jamie]

I've walked away from deals because of someone wanting a bill of sale. You will find out real quick alot of people that buy or trade with individuals don't want any paper trail at all, if they did they would just buy from a gun-shop.

Then you'll never sell anything to me, because I will want a bill of sale. And you'll never buy anything from me either, since I'll also require certain information first.

You can do as you please, of course, but you'd better recognize that there are a lot of people who simply won't deal with you completely "paper-free". Too much liability in it, these days.

[Guest GLOCKGUY]

You can do as you please, of course, but you'd better recognize that there are a lot of people who simply won't deal with you completely "paper-free". Too much liability in it, these days.

I think it goes both ways, you'd better recognize that there are a lot of people who simply won't deal with you completely "with a paper trail".

[Guest Jamie]

I think it goes both ways, you'd better recognize that there are a lot of people who simply won't deal with you completely "with a paper trail".

And I don't want to deal with them, since they are either up to no good, too paranoid, or just too stupid to trust.

Anybody worried about a "paper trail" has already demonstrated that they are one or the the other of those things, and raise the chance of there being a problem later on due to it. I'd rather just pass them by - or have them pass me by - and save us both any potential grief.

I don't know about you, but if I were to buy a gun and it turn out to be stolen, I'd really like to be able to tell the police exactly who I bought it from, and as much info about that person as possible. I wouldn't want anybody getting it in their head that I might not be able to provide those things because I stole it.

Hell, now days, with a camera on every phone, a person should really be able to provide a photo of anyone they make any gun-related transaction with...

[RobertNashville]

...Sorry for the long post. I wanted to put the printed facts instead of trying to do it from memory. If you go to either of the sources websites and read the complete stories I promise you will be as pissed as I am about this bunch of trash taking the life of a fine officer.

Actually; I'm probably equally angry that such felons were on the street and ever had a chance to commit this murder. I'm so pleased that these fine, upstanding citizens were able to get to Nashville and likely passed within a mile or two of my house on their way to Chattanooga.

I'm not in any way negating the personal guilt of this thug and everyone in his thug family that helped him but this tragedy could well have been stopped before it happened if we treated violent, dangerous criminals like violent, dangerous criminals and locked up such scum (and kept them there).

[Guest Jamie]

I'm not in any way negating the personal guilt of this thug and everyone in his thug family that helped him but this tragedy could well have been stopped before it happened if we treated violent, dangerous criminals like violent, dangerous criminals and locked up such scum (and kept them there).

Eh, screw that. If they're too violent and dangerous to be turned loose, then it's time to treat them like the rabid dogs they are and put 'em down.

I just can't warm up to the idea of maintaining and paying for the worthless...

[Guest GLOCKGUY]

And I don't want to deal with them, since they are either up to no good, too paranoid, or just too stupid to trust.

Anybody worried about a "paper trail" has already demonstrated that they are one or the the other of those things, and raise the chance of there being a problem later on due to it. I'd rather just pass them by - or have them pass me by - and save us both any potential grief.

I don't know about you, but if I were to buy a gun and it turn out to be stolen, I'd really like to be able to tell the police exactly who I bought it from, and as much info about that person as possible. I wouldn't want anybody getting it in their head that I might not be able to provide those things because I stole it.

Hell, now days, with a camera on every phone, a person should really be able to provide a photo of anyone they make any gun-related transaction with...

And I don't want to deal with someone wanting a paper trail because they are being too paranoid, or just too stupid to trust. I think it again goes both ways. And do you real think a bill of sale will hold any ground? If its not notarized its just a worthless piece of paper.

[RobertNashville]

Eh, screw that. If they're too violent and dangerous to be turned loose, then it's time to treat them like the rabid dogs they are and put 'em down.

I just can't warm up to the idea of maintaining and paying for the worthless...

I hear you and it's difficult do disagree.

However, I used to be really pro-death penalty but I started to reconsider that when we've found people on death row who we now know (through DNA for example) that they aren't guilty. I well remember a case from my home town where a man was convicted of many, many rapes and was serving a life sentence but 20 years later, the state found out they convicted the wrong man...you can't give back 20 years of a man's life but at least he could still have some life after being released...I'd hate to think that we might have killed someone who was innocent.

So...I'm hesitant to just "put 'me down"...if we can lock them away until they die of natural causes or at least until they are so old they can't be a danger to society again at least it gives us (society) an opportunity to release an innocent man if he happened to get wrongly convicted.

[Guest db99wj]

And I don't want to deal with someone wanting a paper trail because they are being too paranoid, or just too stupid to trust. I think it again goes both ways. And do you real think a bill of sale will hold any ground? If its not notarized its just a worthless piece of paper.

Not true, lack of a notarized copy does not make it worthless. Most bills of sale are not notarized, certain contracts, titles, etc are. Does a notarized copy help in a dispute over terms, of course, but not being notarized doesn't make a bill of sale worthless.

[Guest GLOCKGUY]

And I guess also why I am like I am is I live in a small town where everybody knows everybody and if I did deal with someone from the big city I would want to know more about them.

[Guest GLOCKGUY]

Not true, lack of a notarized copy does not make it worthless. Most bills of sale are not notarized, certain contracts, titles, etc are. Does a notarized copy help in a dispute over terms, of course, but not being notarized doesn't make a bill of sale worthless.

its your word against mine that I signed that bill of sale if its not notarized.

[Guest RevScottie]

its your word against mine that I signed that bill of sale if its not notarized.

Yeah but I also reqire your DL# to be on the Bill of Sale so that makes it highly unlikely that I picked you at random ,made up a Bill of Sale with your DL#, and just happened to make an exact forgery of your signature. Also if I wanted a "date stamp" of the transaction I could mail the Bill of Sale to myself and not open it.

[Oh Shoot]

From Chattanooga Times Free Press

Jesse Mathews, the suspect in the shooting death of Chattanooga police Sgt. Tim Chapin, was booked into the Hamilton County Jail about 12:45 p.m. today.

....

Wait a minute. You telling me he's out of hospital? Or was this just a "formal paperwork" booking?

- OS

[Mark A]

So now we know he probably didn't buy a gun at the gun show but was there to try to sell some stolen guns... Is that about right?

What a screwed up family. Trash all around

[Guest tommy62]

Wait a minute. You telling me he's out of hospital? Or was this just a "formal paperwork" booking?

- OS

Transferred to county jail...minus his pecker. If only the police had hit that one between his scumbag ears.

[Patton]

I heard he went into the gun show and traded three stolen guns for a m-4.

On the Bill of Sale topic. I knew a guy, I actually traded with him, he bought a gun off a guy and kept it about a year before he traded it at a local gun shop. Two weeks later the police came to his house questioning him about the "stolen gun". He gave the details of the purchase just to find out the guy he bought it from was the owner and he reported it stolen after the transaction. Cell phone records, 18 months, and over $2000 in lawyer fees before the guy was acquitted. The douche bag said he must have reported the wrong gun stolen when his car was broken into and that he didn’t remember selling the gun.

I keep email records and notes about all the guns I sell and trade. Email records, phone records, DL and even License Plate identification I was told by a ATF Agent can help prove a case when selling your personal collection if you ever get that knock at the door.

[Guest GLOCKGUY]

I heard he went into the gun show and traded three stolen guns for a m-4.

On the Bill of Sale topic. I knew a guy, I actually traded with him, he bought a gun off a guy and kept it about a year before he traded it at a local gun shop. Two weeks later the police came to his house questioning him about the "stolen gun". He gave the details of the purchase just to find out the guy he bought it from was the owner and he reported it stolen after the transaction. Cell phone records, 18 months, and over $2000 in lawyer fees before the guy was acquitted. The douche bag said he must have reported the wrong gun stolen when his car was broken into and that he didn’t remember selling the gun.

I keep email records and notes about all the guns I sell and trade. Email records, phone records, DL and even License Plate identification I was told by a ATF Agent can help prove a case when selling your personal collection if you ever get that knock at the door.

I would of sued the guy that sold me the gun and then reported it stolen and for sure got my $2000 back and made him pay the lawyer fee's I got for suing him.

[Patton]

I also was talking with a Chattanooga cop one day that his agency had taken in a gun on a NCIC check during a everday traffic stop when the gun came back hot, the gun owner started looking into it a found out that the gun had been stolen and returned to the owner but the gun had switched hands a couple of times in a very short period of time and had even came from Indiana. He had gotten a bill of sale that linked it to a guy that got it at a pawn shop. He eventually got the gun back.

[Alpha13]

hes a felony convict. However he got his gun, it was illegal and whoever sold it to him made a mistake. If it was a face to face, he could have lied to the person, but that does show the flaw in TN gun laws (allowing face to face trades without a check). Part of the cleanup that needs to be done is to make face to face transfers FREE at dealers or the police dpt or someplace, so the proper background check can be done for FREE to ensure that the buyer is legit. Both sides win: gun owners would appreciate free checks, and gun control freaks get to feel better that guns only change hands after a check.

If a dealer at the show sold it to him, it should be investigated. If its a face to face, nothing they can do.

this idea is stupid, it does not matter how many "checks" we put in place. If someone wants a gun, they will find one! wether they buy or steal it... if you want to enforce something, require that all tn residents, go through a gun handling/maintenance/shooting class. providing them with the tools to better defend themselves and deter theft in general... though it might scare GA a little

[Guest RevScottie]

this idea is stupid, it does not matter how many "checks" we put in place. If someone wants a gun, they will find one! wether they buy or steal it...

True enough but I would just as soon not be the one selling it to them. If I had an easy inexpensive way to transfer with a background check I would take advantage of it. That's the reason a lot of folks won't sell to someone who doesn't have a HCP, of course it isn't perfect but it does give some sense of confidence in the sale.

[Guest RevScottie]

Here is a link to more info about Jesse Mathews and the Gun Show:

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