Shocking Carry Permit Police harassment in Philidelphia, PA

[ProjectDexter]

As a former Police Officer I can assure you everyone is guilty until proven otherwise. If you were innocent until proven guilty they couldn’t handcuff you and take you to jail.

If someone pulls a gun on you will you wait to see if it’s real or not? No, that would be ignorant. A cop assuming that everyone carrying a gun is a law abiding citizen with an HCP would be just as ignorant.

A cop has every right to stop you and to ask to see your permit; you agreed to that when you bought the privilege of carrying a gun. It’s a crime for the average citizen to carry a gun in Tennessee. Until that changes it will be rare to see someone carrying a gun. It’s out of the norm and that coupled with your appearance will either cause the cops to stop you or let you walk on by.

For the record, my mind is not made up on this subject one way of the other, I have a view on what seems like just cause in my mind, and the officer did not follow it. This would be from common sense, and my own dealings with LE when it comes to firearms. I'm not even going to pretend I know all the laws and loopholes of how an altercation like this should work, especially when it varies state to state, and apparently city to city.

Common sense tells me that an officer of the law should NEVER EVER open draw on someone walking down the street with their back to him/her. I understand a cop not wanting to assume that the person is legally carrying a weapon (for the LEO's own protection), but again, muzzling someone when their weapon is holstered doesn't sound like the proper way to handle something like this. Especially when you don't even know what the law you think your enforcing actually is.

Here's a question for the retired LEO's. What if YOU are carrying OWB with a shirt over your rig, somehow an on duty officer sees your piece and pulls on YOU, forces you to the ground threatening to "F***** Kill You". You are well within the law, and you know it. But he doesn't, all he sees is a weapon and he thinks your not supposed to have it. Do you think he is out of line with that or not?

Edited April 7, 2011 by ProjectDexter

[CQB Elite]

I didn't see anywhere in this story where this citzen pulled a gun, Must of missed it "my Badd"

In my opinion common sense dictates that a person open carrying has the permission too.

But that’s just me, Make me smarter?

Why am I uncomfortable with these statements?

Do all the protectors of citizens constitutional rights have this warped view? WOW!!

I'll not get into a pissing match over this "It is what, It is"

Have a good day.....

Good thing for your loved ones that you're not a cop.... Those types of assumptions will get you killed...

[CQB Elite]

ProjectDexter- I've worked on patrol and in Investigations. I've had guns pulled on me, shots fired from a distance in my direction and a 17 year old blow the top of his head off with a 44 mag just 6 ft in front of me. If an officer that I don't know sees my weapon and draws on me I'll comply with his every command and tell him he did an awesome job after it is all sorted out. Then I'll call his Chief or Sheriff the next day and tell them I'm proud that their officer used tactics to stay alive.

LEO make tough decisions every second of every day. The closest that most get to making these is playing Call of Duty on their PS3.....

[ProjectDexter]

ProjectDexter- I've worked on patrol and in Investigations. I've had guns pulled on me, shots fired from a distance in my direction and a 17 year old blow the top of his head off with a 44 mag just 6 ft in front of me. If an officer that I don't know sees my weapon and draws on me I'll comply with his every command and tell him he did an awesome job after it is all sorted out. Then I'll call his Chief or Sheriff the next day and tell them I'm proud that their officer used tactics to stay alive.

LEO make tough decisions every second of every day. The closest that most get to making these is playing Call of Duty on their PS3.....

From the sound of it, this officer should have been studying the laws a little more and playing Call of Duty a little less.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Barney Fife. The cop could have just asked for a permit, instead of going tactical on him.

It didn't appear the guy, walking down the street, unless that's illegal in Philly, did anything wrong.

Not being a cop, I can't speak other than that for his actions, but he probably needs to go back

to school. You police and former police don't really think he over-reacted?

I doubt any gangsta's open carry.

[Guest tommy62]

Typical cop baiting. I admit that the police were out of line with the treatment of the OC'er, but you get the results you look for.

[CQB Elite]

[Guest Zombie-Hunter]

Here's a question for the retired LEO's. What if YOU are carrying OWB with a shirt over your rig, somehow an on duty officer sees your piece and pulls on YOU, forces you to the ground threatening to "F***** Kill You". You are well within the law, and you know it. But he doesn't, all he sees is a weapon and he thinks your not supposed to have it. Do you think he is out of line with that or not?

ProjectDexter- If an officer that I don't know sees my weapon and draws on me I'll comply with his every command and tell him he did an awesome job after it is all sorted out. Then I'll call his Chief or Sheriff the next day and tell them I'm proud that their officer used tactics to stay alive......

Once again WOW!

Edited April 7, 2011 by Zombie-Hunter

[memphisjim]

ok first the innocent until proven guilty is in a court of law the judicial branch of govt

the executive branch doesnt operate that way

sure the cops were a little hotheaded but at the same time the guy isnt doing what they said and he had a gun you can't let that escalate

he should have done exactly what the cops said and if after felt his rights were violated take the next appropriate action

[Dolomite_supafly]

The problem started with "Hey, Junior". Some would consider that disrespectful and the first contact often sets the tone for how the rest of the interaction is going to go. Imagine walking up to any LE, or a stranger for that matter, and addressing them as "junior"? I gurantee it will not go very well. Anything even remotely disrespectful, not only unlawful, will end badly. Officers would even joke about someone being guilty of "contempt of cop" as they arrested them for disorderly conduct or PI.

Now without a doubt the citizen should have complied but the officer basically shut down any communication even after it was obvious the citizen was attempting to explain. Officers do not know the laws, or at least most don't and I don't expect them to know every law. Problem I have is when you try to explain the law most LE are unwilling to listen and often take it as a form of disrespect.

I put together a small book of laws that LE may not be aware of regarding recently changed laws as they apply to HCP holders. This was so I could cite the law if questioned or be able to even show LE the laws because not all officers update their patrol books. I mentioned it to a LE buddy of mine and was told flat out it would cause me a lot more grief than it was worth. He said by trying to explain to LE what the law is, even though a lot do not know the laws, would be disrespectful and met with a negative response.

I have said this before and will say it again. I have seen other officers arrest people unsure if the arrestee met the criteria to be arrested or even if any laws broken. I would hear "I am a reporting agency" and then say "let the courts sort it all out" if the arrest may not have been justified. I have even heard officers say they had no intention of showing up to court because they knew the charges were going to get thrown out, making it sound like the arrest was out of spite. For most of us spending any time in jail is going to cost us money and time, even if it is dismissed at a later date.

LE, especially these days, have a hard time doing their job. I have absouletly no problem drawing a weapon on someone until things get safe enough to holster. They need to make sure they come home to their families like those they are supposed to protect. I do have a problem when the officer steps over into the area where they take things personal then use the justice system as a means of revenge. I have been called every name in the book over the years and often let it go because I never took what was being said personally. That can't be said for a lot of the younger officers.

I am not anti LE, far from it. I have given my time and equipment to local LE on dozens of occassions. When an officer can't afford their equipment and the department will not supply it I would step up and offer to help out because it may be me that they are saving some day. Problem I have is there are officers out there that should not be officers. Other officers know who they are but rarely do anything about it, often laughing at him then getting upset with him when he screws up in the public eye. And even when the officer does get into serious trouble they allow the officer to resign rather than fire him so he can move on to another jurisdication. If it were me I would want any problematic officers out of the profession.

Dolomite

[Guest Zombie-Hunter]

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Edited June 25, 2011 by Zombie-Hunter

[RobertNashville]

Barney Fife. The cop could have just asked for a permit, instead of going tactical on him.

It didn't appear the guy, walking down the street, unless that's illegal in Philly, did anything wrong.

Not being a cop, I can't speak other than that for his actions, but he probably needs to go back

to school. You police and former police don't really think he over-reacted?

I doubt any gangsta's open carry.

Armchair quarterbacking is pretty easy isn't it.

I suspect that had this Sgt. done what you suggest and this "innocent victim" turned out to be an actual nutcase and blown the Sgt away while the Sgt was politely asking for the man's permit; there would be a lot of armchair quarterbacking going with folks here suggesting that the Sgt was a "Barney Fife" for not taking the proper precautions to protect himself and secure the guy before then ascertaining if the guy was a threat or not (while of course, sending condolences and prayers to the Sgt's family for their tragic loss).

[Daniel]

After listened to the whole set of recordings; my take on this is…

The fellow was an idiot for initially arguing with the police – arguing with a LEO is really never a good idea; arguing with a LEO when he’s drawing down on you and giving you orders is truly idiotic. There is a place for arguments about what the police did and didn’t do and should or shouldn’t have done but the street when it’s going down is NOT that place.

The whole “I always carry a tape recorded with me†bit seems really questionable to me…I can’t help but think that this guy was out looking to make an issue.

I think the police did overact.

Although it was an overreaction; I don’t think the reaction should be all that big of a surprise – this is Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; not Bucksnort, Tennessee . My point being that while you might be able to openly carry in Bucksnort without even raising an eyebrow that doesn’t mean you can do the same in a major city (especially a major northern city) and expect the same non-reaction EVEN IF THE OPEN CARRYING IS PERFECTLY LEGAL.

So; to sum up; I think the police overacted and I think this guy was an idiot.

While I think it is odd he is not the first person that I know of to carry a recorder with them at all times. A guy who has a blog about commuting by bicycle has a video camera mounted on him at all times. He has recorded people yelling at and threatening him, almost hitting him with their cars, throwing objects at him, his videos were also used to help convict someone who shot him with either a paintball gun or an airsoft gun I do not remember which. He did not start out with the recorder. He just received so much harrasment for simply riding a bicycle instead of driving a car he decided to document it.

[CQB Elite]

Barney Fife. The cop could have just asked for a permit, instead of going tactical on him.

It didn't appear the guy, walking down the street, unless that's illegal in Philly, did anything wrong.

Not being a cop, I can't speak other than that for his actions, but he probably needs to go back

to school. You police and former police don't really think he over-reacted?

I doubt any gangsta's open carry.

I don't think he over-reacted and I'm not going to arm-chair QB him. The SGT saw a man with a gun on his side and wanted to investigate. Maybe this was due to a citizen complaint or maybe the OC'er was acting strange. Maybe the officer just doesn't see people open carrying guns everyday. Who knows. What I can tell you is that the officer attempted to control the situation and find out what is going on. I won't say the way he did that was right or wrong... it was his way.

I think it very unwise to assume that someone is okay just by outward appearances. If you don't believe me just search YouTube for the video of the mother that shoots and kills her son and then herself at the indoor range in Florida. Find the guy that was at the lane next to them and ask him if he thought she was going to do that. Bet he'd say no....

[mikegideon]

Not that they got much more repsectful to the guy after he was no longer a threat, and he stopped running his mouth. I don't agree with the Barney Fife comment either.

[Kegger]

I listened to these recording a couple of days ago and was just as surprised at the amount of people that jumped all over the permit holder.

My whole bitch about this thing is the fact that the officer had the permit holder at gunpoint from the get go, no lets see your permit, no escalation of force. Straight up "you move, I kill you cuz I don't know you."

The permit holder had every right to carry like that. The cop had no right to have the guys life within 4.5 lbs of ending the whole time. As well as the whole, "lets smash the recorder cuz were f***** otherwise" thing. Who does that? People who are wrong and know it.

Who gives a damn if the guy happened to be carrying a recording device? He's not the only one. I do it as well, mostly for when I work car accidents, but also for the occasional arrogant cop who has a beef against OCing.

And for those comparing this guy to Kwik, seriously? Kwik has some severe mental issues going on in his head. This kid merely wants to OC legally and not be held at gunpoint for it everytime.

[mikegideon]

He handled the stop just like Kwik. If he would have shut his mouth and followed their commands, it would have been a very brief moment of tension. The same thing can, and probably HAS happened in Nashville. Most people are smart enough to STFU and follow commands when a cop has a gun on them. This boy was playing to his tape recorder. he may have even known that it would probably go down just the way it did.

[RobertNashville]

While I think it is odd he is not the first person that I know of to carry a recorder with them at all times. A guy who has a blog about commuting by bicycle has a video camera mounted on him at all times. He has recorded people yelling at and threatening him, almost hitting him with their cars, throwing objects at him, his videos were also used to help convict someone who shot him with either a paintball gun or an airsoft gun I do not remember which. He did not start out with the recorder. He just received so much harrasment for simply riding a bicycle instead of driving a car he decided to document it.

There was a time when I road a bike regularly; commuting to/from work as well as long trips on weekends - for those who don't ride it's probably surprising the amount of downright hatred some drivers express for cyclists; even to the point of truly endangering the cyclist's life. So...I can well understand why the blogger you refer to would carry a video camera with him today (however not all that long ago such a camera would have cost thousands and weighed more than the bike!).

It may well be that this guy really does always carry an audio recorder with him everywhere "just because"...or...if could be he carries a recorder with him because he either expects or is looking for an encounter like the one he got. Unfortunately we only have his side of the story and we've no way of truly knowing his motivations.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

If the man was doing something other than walking

down the street, maybe, but like Kegger said, having

his gun trained on the man from the beginning and

not simply asking if he has a permit before escalating

it. I'm sorry folks but that ain't called for if the man's

gun is in his holster.

I didn't know I lived in that kind of police state. I don't

open carry, but that isn't right. And this ain't kwik.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mikegideon]

There was a time when I road a bike regularly; commuting to/from work as well as long trips on weekends - for those who don't ride it's probably surprising the amount of downright hatred some drivers express for cyclists; even to the point of truly endangering the cyclist's life. So...I can well understand why the blogger you refer to would carry a video camera with him today (however not all that long ago such a camera would have cost thousands and weighed more than the bike!).

It may well be that this guy really does always carry an audio recorder with him everywhere "just because"...or...if could be he carries a recorder with him because he either expects or is looking for an encounter like the one he got. Unfortunately we only have his side of the story and we've no way of truly knowing his motivations.

I've had audio recorders on my phones for years, and haven't ever used one. Wonder why that is?

[Guest Zombie-Hunter]

If the man was doing something other than walking

down the street, maybe, but like Kegger said, having

his gun trained on the man from the beginning and

not simply asking if he has a permit before escalating

it. I'm sorry folks but that ain't called for if the man's

gun is in his holster.

I didn't know I lived in that kind of police state. I don't

open carry, but that isn't right. And this ain't kwik.

6.8 is a man with reason and common sense, If I drank I’d buy you a Beer.

I suggest next time the cop run up behind him push the gun up against his head while putting him in a choke hold with his free arm. After all it was a dangerous situation “Man with a Gun!” I don’t see much difference either its legal to carry or it isn’t. But I suppose that would depend on how deep the Barney Fife syndrome runs in the public servants of your community.

TGO manners dictate:

Open Carry = Kwik

Open Criticism = Anti-LE

[mikegideon]

6.8 is a man with reason and common sense, If I drank I’d buy you a Beer.

I suggest next time the cop run up behind him push the gun up against his head while putting him in a choke hold with his free arm. After all it was a dangerous situation “Man with a Gun!†I don’t see much difference either its legal to carry or it isn’t. But I suppose that would depend on how deep the Barney Fife syndrome runs in the public servants of your community.

TGO manners dictate:

Open Carry = Kwik

Open Criticism = Anti-LE

Yes, AR is a reasonable guy. We sometimes text each other with things meant for our significant others . Just don't agree with him in this case.

BTW, you need to get this right...

Cop baiting = Kwik

[Guest Zombie-Hunter]

BTW, you need to get this right...

Open Carrying = Cop baiting

Gotta Ya ......

[RobertNashville]

I've had audio recorders on my phones for years, and haven't ever used one. Wonder why that is?

Humm...perhaps because you don't do things that cause law enforcement officers to overact???

Or...maybe because when confronted with an officer giving you orders you are smart enough to do what you are told and then sort it all out later???

[Guest Zombie-Hunter]

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Edited June 25, 2011 by Zombie-Hunter