Shocking Carry Permit Police harassment in Philidelphia, PA

[mikegideon]

Humm...perhaps because you don't do things that cause law enforcement officers to overact???

Or...maybe because when confronted with an officer giving you orders you are smart enough to do what you are told and then sort it all out later???

Everybody needs to watch the Chris Rock video on being stopped by the police. It's a comedy piece, but there's some reality in it too. I've lived in major cities, and have been exposed to some of those cops. Got stopped by a harris county guy in Houston one night that was real jittery. He had been shot at three different times that day. Personally, I don't want to push those buttons, especially in a place like Philly.

[ProjectDexter]

Like I said before, I ALWAYS turn on my phone audio recorder when I'm speaking with LE. Reason, Officer _______ from the state police pulled me over on I-65. He immediately began rough interrogation methods on me and my PREGNANT wife, scared her to death I might add. Won't go through all the details, but it ended up he was set up for a Narcotics sting and had me out with my hands on the car while the drug dogs spent 30 min sniffing a 100 yard radius of our vehicle. After about an hour of speaking with other reasonable officers, and explaining that my record was completely clean they let me off with my first ever speeding ticket - 10MPH over.

I talked to my former pastor who is retired from the SP and he said it's fairly normal and common for things like this to happen, said the guy was probably pissed off because they most likely hit me and missed the runner they were looking for. I would have been a little more understanding if it had just been me in the car, obviously I was upset about my wife and unborn child be treating like dog s***. So from now on I turn the recorder on whenever I speak with LE.

[RobertNashville]

I don’t mean to sit and pick at this and like all threads of interest turns into dogs chasing their tails but….

Thy why are you???

Are you saying the end justifies the means? That in no way what so ever the public servant wasn't at fault?

No and no. And how you would even think of those two questions based on my comments to Mike?

As I said here:

...

"The fellow was an idiot...I think the police overacted".

Edited April 7, 2011 by RobertNashville

[Guest Zombie-Hunter]

No and no. And how you would even think of those two questions based on my comments to Mike?

You are absolutely correct “I over reacted to your comments to Mikeâ€

I apologize……..

[mikegideon]

As with all things TGO, we weren't there. We know that folks OC in some parts of Philly, but it's a huge place. We're never gonna know for sure. The closest we'll get is how the cops were diciplined by their superiors. I'm guessing there was nothing on that front unless some politician stuck his nose in.

[Daniel]

I listened to these recording a couple of days ago and was just as surprised at the amount of people that jumped all over the permit holder.

My whole bitch about this thing is the fact that the officer had the permit holder at gunpoint from the get go, no lets see your permit, no escalation of force. Straight up "you move, I kill you cuz I don't know you."

The permit holder had every right to carry like that. The cop had no right to have the guys life within 4.5 lbs of ending the whole time. As well as the whole, "lets smash the recorder cuz were f***** otherwise" thing. Who does that? People who are wrong and know it.

Who gives a damn if the guy happened to be carrying a recording device? He's not the only one. I do it as well, mostly for when I work car accidents, but also for the occasional arrogant cop who has a beef against OCing.

And for those comparing this guy to Kwik, seriously? Kwik has some severe mental issues going on in his head. This kid merely wants to OC legally and not be held at gunpoint for it everytime.

Off topic but, were you over by REI the other day? I saw a guy that looked like you. I only noticed him because he was open carrying.

[mikegideon]

Off topic but, were you over by REI the other day? I saw a guy that looked like you. I only noticed him because he was open carrying.

Did he have a bullet hole in his pants?

[Daniel]

No but he did open the car door for the lady with him.

You look like you will break 5K posts before dinner btw.

[LagerHead]

Here's my take, though I will be repeating what some others have said. Note that everything we know is based pretty much solely on the recording with the brief setup at the beginning.

The guy appeared to be nothing wrong. Kudos to him. However, anyone fails to comply with an officer's instructions when he has a weapon trained on him, right or wrong, is not the sharpest knife in the drawer. Even ACLU lawyers will tell you to comply with an officer's lawful orders and once the officer has determined he is safe or made himself so, then you can worry about the legalities.

If this guy had been shot by the officer, again right or wrong, he probably wouldn't have a leg to stand on. First and foremost obey the officer's commands. Yes you want to correct him for the future but arguing with a cop with a gun is just a plain bad idea. Play stupid games...

All that said I don't appreciate the condescension displayed by all the responding officers during the initial encounter. You can be forceful and commanding without being an *******. I had a similar encounter with a fat tub or lard motorcycle cop here in Nashville over me honking at a lady who for the third time in less than a block came into my lane even after I honked my horn at her. So this kind of thing might just rub me the wrong way.

Now I'm not looking for these guys to be all "Pardon me sir, but do you have any Grey Poupon?" but they were Richards if you know what I mean, and I think you do. I counted more than 20 times they used the "F" word toward him and called him an a**hole no less the three times. I understand the job can suck at times but the way you treat people goes a long way toward the way they treat you. And the fact that you could hear several officers' voices and they all acted the same way tells me that the department OK's this behavior. So I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the folks in their precinct/patrol area are distrustful and disrespectful towards cops, but it MIGHT be of their own doing. Who knows?

All in all though, back to the beginning, he should have done what the hell he was told right from the beginning and this probably would have ended a lot different. You can be right, and you can be dead right. Right G?

[SHbicycle]

I would think carry permit laws are something a street cop needs to know so he want get himself are someone else killed. You can jump up and down all day and say Mark was bating the cop, but if the cop knew the law none of this would have happen.

At the beginning of it all the cop sounded on edge what if a car backfired at that time? Boom dead man not braking any laws. Cops are paid to think would it be a good idea if you see someone walking down the street with a gun in a holster not bothering anyone, you should get backup then stop him and ask questions.

I hope Sgt. Dockery will think a little more next time before jumping out his car and drawing down on someone

[Guest nicemac]

The citizen was likely baiting the officer.

However, within seconds (roughly 19 seconds) of the initial contact, the citizen identifies himself as a permit holder to the officer. This could have been handled much better by the officer (and the citizen). This could have all been over in a minute of two if he simply checked the guy's ID/ permit and had some familiarity with the law. I make it my business to know rules/ laws that impact my job/life. As a cop, this is one law he should know in detail.

[mikegideon]

I counted more than 20 times they used the "F" word toward him and called him an a**hole no less the three times.

I think even priests talk that way in Philly

[RobertNashville]

I counted more than 20 times they used the "F" word toward him and called him an a**hole no less the three times.

I think even priests talk that way in Philly

And you know, differences in the way cops and regular Joes treat each other in different parts of the country is probably part of this equation here.

Being from "the North" (please forgive me; I got here as fast as I could); there most certainly is a difference, North vs South, in the way people tend to treat strangers...without getting too deep into stereotypes, folks in the South are often more friendly and polite to strangers than folks in the North and I'd say that's even more true when you tart talking about certain Northern cities such as Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, New York, etc.

While any LWO can have a bad attitude on any given day, I can truthfully say that in my few LWO encounters in the South, the officers have always been cordial and polite...I can't say the same about a couple of my encounters in the North.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Even in the north, there is no reason to pull on this guy. All he had to do was ask him a simple question.

"Do you have a permit?" Followed up by a simple "May I see it?"

[RobertNashville]

Even in the north, there is no reason to pull on this guy. All he had to do was ask him a simple question.

"Do you have a permit?" Followed up by a simple "May I see it?"

Don't read more into what I said that what I actually did say. I know you are too smart for that; besides; I'm sure I actually say plenty of things you can disagree with and not need to put words in my mouth.

What I'm saying is that I was only referring to the language/attitude; I really wasn't addressing or even considering the drawn weapon part of the equation.

[Guest GLOCKGUY]

I agree, I think all cops should be up to date on the gun laws like we have to be. Theirs a local cop here that works at my sons school he was arguing with my son telling him that in the state of TN you can not have a mag with over 10 rounds in it. My son told him he was wrong and my dad carries a Glock with 15 rounds and if he wanted he could carry 33 rounds because their was no law against it. The cop said if he ever pulled me over and I had more then 10 rounds in my gun I was going to jail. Well when my son told me this I made a little trip to the sheriff's office and talked to the sheriff about this and the next day at school the cop told my son he was wrong and my son was right, that you can have more then 10 rounds in TN. But back to this thread, I think if the guy would of just did what the cop said it would of turned out better for both of them..

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Don't read more into what I said that what I actually did say. I know you are too smart for that; besides; I'm sure I actually say plenty of things you can disagree with and not need to put words in my mouth.

What I'm saying is that I was only referring to the language/attitude; I really wasn't addressing or even considering the drawn weapon part of the equation.

I didn't:D It was only my simplistic expectation that a rational cop would do with me. I just

had to throw it in there. Of course in the south it would most likely go like that or less. But

a cop that would pull on an otherwise innocent person, without doing what I suggested,

needs to find another type of employment. I like a civil society.

I asked a cop friend of mine, today, about this, and he said the same thing I just said.