RM Ammo, CCI Blazer, or Wolf Polyformance?

[BigK]

I waded through some troubles getting the flare/powder die and the bullet seating die set to the right depths. I had a few where the bullet would go in too far, b/c I flared the mouth too much. I had a few where the mouth buried itself into the copper jacket or deformed the case, b/c I didn't flare it enough. Once I got that right, I messed up a few more trying to get the bullet seating depth right. I finally got the right amount of flare and the correct OAL.

I carried my first 50 rounds to the range today to try them out. Since this was my first batch, I wanted to hide under the bench while I pulled the trigger. I had my daughter with me, so I didn't, though. A couple that didn't go boom and a couple that didn't feed right. They were near the front of the batch, though. The rest worked as good as the factory loads I shot after I ran out of mine.

I don't know if it's my perception or what, but they seemed like pretty clean loads. They were fairly light too, which is just what I was going for. I was using 124 gr Ranier FMJ, very clean once-fired brass, and 4.2 gr of Bullseye.

Edited April 11, 2011 by BigK

[Dolomite_supafly]

As far as flaring goes, you want to flare just enough so the bullets don't get shaved, no more. Most times I can't even see the flare on mine after I am done. When you seat the bullet you should be able to see where the bullet pushes out on the case a bit. This give you a nice tight bullet without the need for a really tight crimp. Too much of a flare wears the case necks out prematurely because it work hardens them causing cracks.

Here is a good example of how it looks (not mine):

http://gunbot.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/wp_000151.jpg

What was the cause for the few that didn't go boom?

The 9mm headspaces on the case mouth, as does most auto pistol catridges, and if you have too tight of a crimp it will allow the cartridge to fall deeper in the chamber than it should. This can cause light strikes. It can also cause over pressure because the case mouth is being held tight around the crimped bullet by the throat of the barrel. This doesn't allow the case to open up and release the bullet as easily creating a spike in the pressure. An indication of pressure is a flat primer or a pierced primer. Even though the powder charge may be under max there are causes for over pressure and this is one of them. Seating a bullet too deep or too shallow in the case is another.

What I normally do to setup a set of dies is get a factory loaded round. Place it in the shellholder. Unscrew the bullet seater in the die almost all the way out. Then put your lever all the way down to raise the bullet to the top until the lever bottoms out on your press. I then hold down on the handle as I turn the die in until it stops against the factory round, then I lock the die down. You might get a little resistance but not much, you should not use more than just your thumb and index finger to tighten it against the factory round. Again, don't crank down on the seater die as that will alter the factory round you are using to set the dies. This will get the correct crimp without over crimping which is the most common problem new reloaders seem to have. Next, while the lever is still down I will turn the bullet seater in until it stops against the bullet. I then lock it down. This will get you as close as you can to factory. After doing this the only adjustments you might need to make is to the seater for the various bullets you are using. If you are using the same type of bullet as the factory round (FMJ) you should never need to readjust the dies.

Doing it this way will ensure if you don't get things exactly right the loaded round will not chamber or if it does it will be safe to fire. This is better than having a round that is over crimped and falling too far into the chamber which can be dangerous.

Dolomite

Edited April 11, 2011 by Dolomite_supafly

[Dolomite_supafly]

One more thing, the bullet seater in the die is what pushes the bullet into the case. The bullet should just sit on the flared case and not drop into the case at all. Then the seater forces the bullet down into the case.

This is how the bullet should sit on a belled case before seating(again not my picture):

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b20/imakechips/9mm%20case%20length/DSC_0238-1.jpg

Dolomite

Edited April 11, 2011 by Dolomite_supafly

[Jonnin]

finally got the right amount of flare and the correct OAL.

The OAL can be inside a decent range. Any 9mm can be up to 1.17 long (from memory, I could be off), and however short you can make it without blowing it up or causing feed problems (there may be an offical value, seems to be around 1.10 ish). I generally add some to the OAL on the assumption that the listed value is the min OAL for safety. So, if the load data says seat it to 1.05, I would probably seat it to 1.1 or 1.15 just to relax the pressure a little bit and give myself a margin for error.

Also, heavier bullets "usually" cost slightly more. If the goal is a light target load for fun at the range, you might try the 115 grains to save a couple dollars per box (but check the price, usually isnt always). Also, making 50 untried bullets will bite you one day, if they do not cycle the action or do not fire or something. What if all 50 of those had failed to fire like the first few or failed to cycle your action? I recommend only making 5-10 test cases, try them out, and wait to make bulk production of known working loads.

I also cringed a bit pulling the trigger the first time on my reloads. Its a bit scary if, during your research, you ran across all the blown up gun pictures!

The one thing I do now with reloads is to check the barrel if a round did not cycle the action. After getting one bullet stuck in the barrel, I am extra paranoid about that danger.

[BigK]

What was the cause for the few that didn't go boom?

I wish I could be positive, but I'm not. In both cases the primer looked as though it was sufficiently dented (not pierced, not flat).

What I normally do to setup a set of dies is get a factory loaded round. Place it in the shellholder. Unscrew the bullet seater in the die almost all the way out. Then put your lever all the way down to raise the bullet to the top until the lever bottoms out on your press. I then hold down on the handle as I turn the die in until it stops against the factory round, then I lock the die down. You might get a little resistance but not much, you should not use more than just your thumb and index finger to tighten it against the factory round.

After some initial trial and error, I thought 'there has to be an easier way'. Then using a factory round as a gauge occurred to me. It was smooth sailing after that. They only thing I did differently is that I'm using a 4th die to put a factory crimp, so I backed off a bit on the bullet seating die to prevent over-crimping before I dialed the seating knob down til I felt it touch the tip of the factory round.

If you are using the same type of bullet as the factory round (FMJ) you should never need to readjust the dies.

Gotcha, I'm not changing the settings, I'm only making target/IDPA rounds (124 or 147 gr FMJ).

[BigK]

The OAL can be inside a decent range. Any 9mm can be up to 1.17 long (from memory, I could be off), and however short you can make it without blowing it up or causing feed problems (there may be an offical value, seems to be around 1.10 ish). I generally add some to the OAL on the assumption that the listed value is the min OAL for safety. So, if the load data says seat it to 1.05, I would probably seat it to 1.1 or 1.15 just to relax the pressure a little bit and give myself a margin for error.

Not sure if this is sound rationale, so please correct me where I'm wrong. Both of my 9mm's cycle WWB flawlessly. I measured several and used their average OAL as my target for the rounds I made. IIRC, the OAL was 1.15. A few of the first were JUST slightly off (1.125-1.175). The ones that didn't cycle were amongst these that varied before I got it "set" like I wanted it. I suspect they were the longer ones. The feed issues and the "duds" were all 4 in my Glock 34. My CZ P-01 had no issues with any of my loads. In fact, the first 5 went in it and the 2nd 5 went in the Glock. I'd have expected the CZ to have the least consistent rounds in it, but it did fine.

Also, heavier bullets "usually" cost slightly more. If the goal is a light target load for fun at the range, you might try the 115 grains to save a couple dollars per box (but check the price, usually isnt always).

I definitely wanted lower recoil round for the range, but I also want a round that I can rely on to knock down steel in IDPA and meet their minimum power factor. The MPF is 125,000, so for 9mm I can achieve this with 115 gr X 1087 fps, 124 gr X 1009 fps, or 147 gr X 851 fps). I can get there using any of these, but I figured the heavier the bullet, the less recoil. Right/wrong?

Also, making 50 untried bullets will bite you one day, if they do not cycle the action or do not fire or something. What if all 50 of those had failed to fire like the first few or failed to cycle your action? I recommend only making 5-10 test cases, try them out, and wait to make bulk production of known working loads.

I know this. In fact, I think you even warned me. No excuse other than zeal and lack of good sense. I guess I was over-confident, b/c I got the load data I used from some veteran IDPA guys who reload their own ammo. Any changes/experiments will be smaller batches from now on.

I also cringed a bit pulling the trigger the first time on my reloads. Its a bit scary if, during your research, you ran across all the blown up gun pictures!

The one thing I do now with reloads is to check the barrel if a round did not cycle the action. After getting one bullet stuck in the barrel, I am extra paranoid about that danger

The pics of barrells peeled back like bananas, mangled flesh, and exploded polymer frames scared me bad enough. Then I remembered the imprint in a wood beam at my local range from a revolver cylinder when the gun blew up. That's all I could think of when I weighed those first dozen or 2 powder charges to make sure they were right.

[BigK]

I have a question for you two guys about the powder measure. I have a Lee Auto Disk Powder Measure. Their chart said for 4.0 to 4.1 gr of Bullseye, I would use the .43 hole. I see what Jonnin meant about it being unreliable. The .43 hole throws 3.7 gr and the next step up is .46, which throws almost 4.3 gr.

I want to use 4.0 - 4.1 gr of Bullseye, so unless I'm missing something I have 2 options:

1. I can get the double disk upgrade to get the extra .3 to .4 gr by adding a disk on top of the .43 disk. This option is around $13-15 + shipping.
   
2. I can really upgrade and get the Lee Perfect Powder Measure the Dolomite recommended. This option is around $21-25 + shipping.
   

I'm leaning toward option 2, but would appreciate hearing what you guys think. Y'all have a lot more experience than me at this. Also, let me know if I'm overthinking this. Is the difference I'd see from dropping down by a few tenths of a grain worth the trouble?

[Dolomite_supafly]

I have a question for you two guys about the powder measure. I have a Lee Auto Disk Powder Measure. Their chart said for 4.0 to 4.1 gr of Bullseye, I would use the .43 hole. I see what Jonnin meant about it being unreliable. The .43 hole throws 3.7 gr and the next step up is .46, which throws almost 4.3 gr.

I want to use 4.0 - 4.1 gr of Bullseye, so unless I'm missing something I have 2 options:

1. I can get the double disk upgrade to get the extra .3 to .4 gr by adding a disk on top of the .43 disk. This option is around $13-15 + shipping.
   
2. I can really upgrade and get the Lee Perfect Powder Measure the Dolomite recommended. This option is around $21-25 + shipping.
   

I'm leaning toward option 2, but would appreciate hearing what you guys think. Y'all have a lot more experience than me at this. Also, let me know if I'm overthinking this. Is the difference I'd see from dropping down by a few tenths of a grain worth the trouble?

The chart is never right. Trial and error will keep you safe. I have one as well and the chart has never been right with any of the powders I have used.

Buy a micrometer adjustable disk. That way you can dial it to what you need. I use the Perfect Powder measure for all of my loading needs, pistol and rifle. It is really consistent.

Dolomite

[Jonnin]

Not sure if this is sound rationale, so please correct me where I'm wrong. Both of my 9mm's cycle WWB flawlessly. I measured several and used their average OAL as my target for the rounds I made. IIRC, the OAL was 1.15. A few of the first were JUST slightly off (1.125-1.175). The ones that didn't cycle were amongst these that varied before I got it "set" like I wanted it. I suspect they were the longer ones. The feed issues and the "duds" were all 4 in my Glock 34. My CZ P-01 had no issues with any of my loads. In fact, the first 5 went in it and the 2nd 5 went in the Glock. I'd have expected the CZ to have the least consistent rounds in it, but it did fine.

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The important things are 1) how close the butt of the round is to the powder (closer = pressure, too close = bad) and 2) ability to cycle. If your OAL is larger than the value listed for that load in your load data, is not just barely in the case, and cycles cleanly, its fine. I would say keep it under the cartridge max but I doubt you will ever get close to that value.

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I definitely wanted lower recoil round for the range, but I also want a round that I can rely on to knock down steel in IDPA and meet their minimum power factor. The MPF is 125,000, so for 9mm I can achieve this with 115 gr X 1087 fps, 124 gr X 1009 fps, or 147 gr X 851 fps). I can get there using any of these, but I figured the heavier the bullet, the less recoil. Right/wrong?

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Wrong? Force is MA, and equal/opposite reaction and stuff. Or momentum, MV, might be more appropriate. But either way, the forces are directly related to BOTH the mass AND the speed, so, basically, its a wash. The same momentum/energy/force is the same no matter how you got there. Use what you like, I was just saying you might can save a buck, its a minor cost difference usually but it adds up over thousands of rounds. The recoil should be about the same regardless.

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I know this. In fact, I think you even warned me. No excuse other than zeal and lack of good sense. I guess I was over-confident, b/c I got the load data I used from some veteran IDPA guys who reload their own ammo. Any changes/experiments will be smaller batches from now on.

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Heh, well I did the same, its how I know...

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The pics of barrells peeled back like bananas, mangled flesh, and exploded polymer frames scared me bad enough. Then I remembered the imprint in a wood beam at my local range from a revolver cylinder when the gun blew up. That's all I could think of when I weighed those first dozen or 2 powder charges to make sure they were right.

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Yea its scary. But in the end, just be careful & have respect for what you are doing, and all will be well.

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[Jonnin]

I have a question for you two guys about the powder measure. I have a Lee Auto Disk Powder Measure. Their chart said for 4.0 to 4.1 gr of Bullseye, I would use the .43 hole. I see what Jonnin meant about it being unreliable. The .43 hole throws 3.7 gr and the next step up is .46, which throws almost 4.3 gr.

I want to use 4.0 - 4.1 gr of Bullseye, so unless I'm missing something I have 2 options:

1. I can get the double disk upgrade to get the extra .3 to .4 gr by adding a disk on top of the .43 disk. This option is around $13-15 + shipping.
   
2. I can really upgrade and get the Lee Perfect Powder Measure the Dolomite recommended. This option is around $21-25 + shipping.
   

I'm leaning toward option 2, but would appreciate hearing what you guys think. Y'all have a lot more experience than me at this. Also, let me know if I'm overthinking this. Is the difference I'd see from dropping down by a few tenths of a grain worth the trouble?

Its not worth spending more money. Pick the weaker load to try first. Does it cycle the action, can it knock down the targets? If not, bump it up to the next one. So long as the first load is not too weak and the second is not higher than your max load data for the round, its fine.

You have many options, really.

-You can dip powder with some sort of dipper, or scale, or something

- you can buy a better measure or device or disk, etc

- you can use a different powder that gets you closer to your perfect load using the disk thingy

- you can just go with what you have, pick one of the 2 possible loadings and roll with it

You can also be creative. You could gently open up the smaller hole to get it closer to what you want, with sandpaper or something. Or you could try to fill the larger hole with some glue or something then play with it until its what you need. Of course, this is probably being TOO cheap, but if you only plan to load a couple of calibers, opening up that smaller hole to let just a lil bit more thu it would be very easy to do.

[BigK]

Thank you again for all the priceless advice and recommendations about reloading. That is not where I expected this thread to go, but I am SO glad it did.

My last 100 rounds all cycled perfectly. I had zero failures and all rounds were every bit as accurate as any factory load I've shot. I now feel confident enought to make a lot at a time and even plan to use them at my next IDPA match.

I'm going to post another thread soon about choosing and matching components for target/IDPA. I hope I haven't worn out my welcome, b/c I look forward to your input when I get my thoughts/questions together.

FWIW...I'm already expanding my operation next payday. I'm getting a set of .38/.357 dies and an extra turret, so I don't have to change/reset dies. I have over 600 pcs of brass polished, deprimed, and waiting to be reloaded!

[Jonnin]

Thank you again for all the priceless advice and recommendations about reloading. That is not where I expected this thread to go, but I am SO glad it did.

My last 100 rounds all cycled perfectly. I had zero failures and all rounds were every bit as accurate as any factory load I've shot. I now feel confident enought to make a lot at a time and even plan to use them at my next IDPA match.

I'm going to post another thread soon about choosing and matching components for target/IDPA. I hope I haven't worn out my welcome, b/c I look forward to your input when I get my thoughts/questions together.

FWIW...I'm already expanding my operation next payday. I'm getting a set of .38/.357 dies and an extra turret, so I don't have to change/reset dies. I have over 600 pcs of brass polished, deprimed, and waiting to be reloaded!

Glad to hear its working out for you. You will soon grow past my limited know-how; I reload to be cheap, not to make the best target ammo in the world. Im sure its fine for IDPA and such, since you only have to hit a ginormous target at close range, but only an idiot would shoot the stuff I make out past 30 yards with any hope of hitting say a 3 inch target -- it isnt that well made and is certainly not that consistent. For IDPA, well I dont do that but 3 gun is pretty close, and I just poke a cheap lead slug into a range pickup case with a cheap primer and disk-device's inaccurate powder charge. And, when I miss its stll my fault, not the ammo's. I can hit the pie-plate sized zero points off ring on the cardboard man targets or the knockdown metal thingys every time with this stuff; its a huge target and a short range, and even my poor ammo is more than good enough for that.